Reporters' Roundtable Ep. 108: Apple's China problem

-- Everyone welcome to reporters' roundtable I am -- -- -- in San Francisco and I'm very excited about today's show because we're talking about. Everybody's favorite topic. Apple. And Apple's position in the world you know everybody knows right now that Apple is the most valuable US company there is just -- -- AT and earlier. This week -- there were invaded their quarterly earnings report -- -- wanna give you a couple of numbers on Apple for -- my guests talk about the topic. Apple's total revenue from a quarter. An all time record and 73% better than the company did during the same quarter last year 46 point three billion dollars. Profits on that revenue thirteen. Billion dollars profits. They made 37 millions of it sold 37 million iphones during the quarter it's the most ever sold in any quarter. Or those are almost all iPhone four -- -- now these amazing successes are built on the backs. A literally hundreds of thousands of factory workers almost all of them in China. -- -- the iphones and other products from other vendors to be fair. In giant science fiction scale plants and factories that just never stop. These plants take their tall they take the -- on the workers in China and they take their -- and jobs here in the United States. -- -- too recent pieces of outstanding journalism that highlight these issues. First there's a series developing the New York Times co authored by Charleston -- that kicked off in the Sunday Times how the US lost out an iPhone work. And then a follow on peace in China the human costs are built into an iPad ran on Wednesday. And second there's -- this American life episode called mister daisy -- the Apple factory. That has reignited. Interest in the -- -- -- DC's report on his trip I think more than a year ago. To visit the birthplace of his iPhone the Foxconn plant in China. Today we have both -- -- he -- -- hazy on the roundtable and we're going to talk about Apple's muscle. How it works with Chinese manufacturing companies. If there's any chance that manufacturing. Of those phones could return or come to the US and if it would be a good thing if it actually did. Charles and might. Both thank you so much for joining us Charles is joining us from Skype out from his New York -- and Mike I think from a rest stop in on the freeway in Harrisburg. Charles welcome. Thanks much for having Mike thanks for dialing and really appreciate -- I know you've got a very busy tour schedule now. So. Guys -- first I have to ask this question com. Why are iphones and ipads and Android phones and Dell PCs and HP laptops manufactured in China. Charles well. And the biggest reason that -- manufactured in China is because there's really nowhere else they could be manufactured right now. The that the US just can't touch. It's not just China I mean there's a lot of countries -- contribute to manufacture the parts that end up in an iPhone or an iPad. On but it most of it is in Asia in the assembly taking all these hundreds of parts and putting them together. That happens in China. Because there are factories there that we literally just can't mimic what one factory and I think Mike has. Can speak about this from first hand experience. On known -- -- city and Shenzhen China. Has 230000. Workers and it. 230000 workers as as biggest many. American cities. And on and they're able to take these people and put them into one place. And train them very quickly and -- them very effectively to manufacture electronic goods now might. ID this -- and a price -- you started. I think -- you -- to show the agony and the Ecstasy of Steve Jobs which was -- going you've visited. China to see where your iPhone was made because you're an Apple fan boy. What was -- like how to. It -- us about that and how did it how it felt to understand. Where your -- device that you love so much was manufactured. Most importantly that are -- what I'd do my expression -- I'd always wanted to talk about Apple Steve Jobs -- and so interest. In my entire life but I know. I never -- a compelling angle of talks about until it started researching Foxconn started. Investigating -- supply chain just you know -- web Beijing really control that I don't like it had to go. And -- -- it for myself. Talk workers try to get a real slip. Of the actual human story that underlies it because it has so much scale there's it's so huge scale that we often. Lose track of human component the -- what real laughs because -- sheer numbers of them I think. I can overwhelm our sorted out. A lot of how things work. Now. Steve Jobs and others in the electronics industry it's that you know. Our products are global or industries are global why are we talking about where a particular products is manufactured and Apple still a US company. Talk to us about that particular argument Charles I'm sure you've heard them talking to people in the industry. Absolutely and in a number of people that have spoken to within Apple on both current and former have reflected that mean there argument basically -- We manufacture phones and I'm sorry we cell phones and -- over a hundred countries. Why do we have any particular obligation to any one of them our obligation is manufacturing the most innovative the best product that we can. In it I don't think anyone would argue that Apple isn't doing that in -- -- -- killer fashion. But I think there critics of -- BQ. The issue that they -- is to say that there is essentially and it's not just Apple every electronics company and infect many other industries are taking advantage of this right now. There's an international arbitrage going on right now. Where you can't manufacture in one country at a very very low Christ because. They are are not there isn't the quality of living or the protections that exist elsewhere. In then sell that in the United States are in the UK or in other nations. -- have much higher price than anyone's and in the manufacturing country would ever -- I mean the excluding the most recent quarter last year. Apple Apple's profits were about 400000 dollars per employee. Obviously there's a number of employees in the US work at Apple stores and are nowhere near 400000 dollars per person. And if you look at the -- at at factory workers who don't work for Apple who work for suppliers. They get no where near anything like that. In I think that there's some people who say when we look beyond -- of the values of just it's pure capitalism. That as a world and as a nation we've always believed that it should be tampered. By other values. And there's a question as to whether those are being actual lies in the way that the world economy works right now and. Now Mike or Charles here -- it which is more important is the issue where the phones are made in the fact that they're not being made in the US more important than how people are treated who are making them in China or is -- the reverse the people. Are we more concerned about the working conditions of the people who are putting -- devices together. Well I. Liked it or or I've been working on last eight months. I care -- About. Fact that human rights are being related. Production. Of all major electronics makers. And certain actually. -- in our popular conscious. People -- short. -- -- People talking about the idea of bringing things like particle production other manufacturing back United States. Sort of partly whites are actually say -- reproductive rights to be so uniquely express and airport. We can opt to do it China and therefore the conditions have absolutely terrible Iowa that would actually follow in terms of -- like one. It's what can send work. -- -- -- -- You -- ability to. Enforce standards. That -- are better ones that are happening on the ground now. In China. -- -- A picture that there's there's there's Turkey. -- -- record buyer for a -- -- US and there are up. It's kind of suck or not there. That workers -- workers everywhere and so the conditions being entry in China. -- -- Significant human rights issue throughout the conditions were rating count -- I I want to I drill into that little bit here Charles by asking you. -- And did and an amazing study and then went to China and visited the plants are gonna play clips from that that that monologue and second. Up but can you confirm -- back up what he's talking about human rights violations by. Apple iPhone and manufacturers under the main -- -- primary contractor or its us subsidiary contractors. What we we know that things are fairly harsh and side Chinese factories and we know this in part because. Apple itself has done audits and studies and released documents of what they find. But we also know it from our own reporting from -- NGOs who have gone inside a number of these factories -- -- the I'm not an expert in what constitutes a human rights violations but I do know that things are enormously harsh -- -- factories. They -- in exposures to toxins that have paralyzed -- injured people. There had been explosions that have killed people and it seriously injured others there are people who regularly work more than sixty hours per week which is a violation. Of on Apple's internal codes as well as in many nations the laws. And -- -- it is definitely harsh it is an environment that nobody in the United States would probably want to work in and I think to that end the question that you asked about whether we should. Focus on bringing jobs home. And the answer is that these jobs are never gonna now it's -- respects we don't want them to these are not jobs that Americans want. It I think the issue is. -- and we take the economy and shape it to create the jobs that we do want and what role should consumers and companies play in developing other nations my colleague nick -- has written about how. Sweat shops for lack of a better word are a helpful an inevitable part of economic development in the China actually. And that China is at a stage that the US was -- Say a hundred years ago that this is part of economic development and that's absolutely true in people in China say that. But the question of how you speed up that progress how do you get from a place where abuses are common to a place where abuses don't happen. That happens because there are outside pressures in the United States in our history -- was the progressive movement. And I think what people are hoping today. Is that companies and consumers will become part of that pressure to improve places like China so that working conditions are not as harsh and one of the ways that -- Go ahead Mike -- that I do not agree with -- cultural thing here but it but -- not. Very directly to. Our pastor or a hundred years earlier because there's -- this is -- industrial development revolution happening by -- of an external force external forces corporations bringing in work. Corporations are coming from for all countries that went through their -- labor struggles -- well. How to create. Working conditions because people extreme sacrifice work. Hundred years to -- -- labor conditions and then made a conscious decision to export. The jobs without those values attached of the situation where the cost of living is low in the special economic zone to make. Global -- already. You're not actually strip -- also. The for people well working themselves to on the line that happened at Foxconn are being exposed. -- are. Hazardous chemical weapon and many. -- -- -- -- Mean we know -- we got the job. Currently not part of the use the economics. Sort sort of overview. -- -- that between the are critical place -- sure -- protections for ourselves. I I want to get into that and and how things have developed since we first since are all listen to entry for sort of becoming aware of this. But I want to play a brief clip here Mike from your monologue in -- -- -- Steve Jobs which was this is from this American life episode where and I think you did this. -- this recordings taken from this is just took about one minute of a very gripping show on your visit to China we have a -- up. Here we can try to subvert that by blocking -- actual fake truth they take it up and down the tiles and the first thing I noticed it. Is to silence. So quite. Foxconn you to merited if you ever speak on the line. And no factory went to to anyone. -- speak on the line but this is deeper than that. As -- -- the first world I expect to factory making complex electronics will. Have to sound of machinery put in a place -- cost of labor is effectively zero anything. The can be made by hand. Is made by hand. No matter how complex -- electronics are. They -- stumbled by thousands and thousands. -- tiny little fingers working in concert from those past space -- the only sound to the sound of -- In constant. And pending function. Of content of that entire show that I listen to that was the clip that really grabbed me because. You know you think of a company going through industrial -- -- country going through an industrial revolution of its own -- workers. And move towards. An industrial economy and picturing. Tens of thousands of people in a quiet silent sterile room is not -- -- thinks. And what I want to ask about that about that. Image of the way our phones are manufactured is has it changed since you've done that story is it's still people working. Double twelve hour shifts in order to put our phones together. I'm asking anybody who knows I mean this is an issue for -- for more than a year and it has been in the public have things changed at all -- -- -- trial. -- -- -- -- -- -- -- Artwork monologue. Or you'll like some cousins to a journalist you know like we're not. Aware deliberately let me. Point something out here -- Charles answers -- you may think of yourself as a monologues that you got into the factory and you saw so I'm just saying that was -- that was reporting. Called by any imminent -- -- might -- Charles go ahead. It's. Like oh. Not very much -- From what are their main -- -- -- Com or I was on the ground and you know I. Broke speak for what -- whether there. The any any real changes happened in terms of what turned out things are going on. -- -- there haven't been widespread changes in in Shenzhen -- another. Other cities in China there have been some improvements in -- usually in reaction to a specific event so after that it the rash of suicides at Foxconn for instance. Fox -- did build a mental health. Program and made more resources available to workers. -- they also have as their -- criticisms. Of low wages Foxconn has raised the number of -- the amount of wages paid to two workers and and and that's not just speak Foxconn and it's not just because of these criticisms one of the things we're seeing in China right now particularly over the last year is that for the first time. Wages are rising because there's a huge demand for labor. Who for the first time we're seeing a labor shortage among companies that are manufacturing for the US and for for other areas. And that's having a really profound effect on the Chinese economy and on Chinese labor patterns. Essentially until now Chinese laborers have had almost no power whatsoever. They don't have very much power now but they have a little bit more and that's beginning to change how companies were -- treat them. -- I wanna get into the issue of could the -- could manufacturing ever work here in the US of tiny little devices like this and one assumes that were iphones and Android phones and blackberries etc. to be manufactured -- US. That the plants would look different they -- perhaps be more automated. I'm just wondering if you guys have looked at what's the break even to automate I mean if if the labor cost -- solo in China and is higher here because of because -- here a it. How would manufacturing of these phones be different and -- it's still working out economically think. Just to be clear the the iPhone which will never be manufactured in the United States that'll never be assembled here. It it -- part of the reason is exactly what you just said is is. The question of substitute ability of labor for automation. To the iPhone -- such a unique device and it -- -- -- -- That it really can't be put together by machines it's it's much more effective I'm told by engineers expert be put together by human hands. It's -- you need to be a replacement China where those hands are an expensive. When you're getting to a point where you say. You're changing how what the device looks like in the first place let's let's because it has to -- for her robot. Let's challenge that I mean obviously this device was created to be manufactured and that was understood during its design that the manufacturers would be. Reasonably low cost labor. But it's not like the United States does not have expertise in building assembly lines. In building infrastructure and building logistics to support hundreds of companies feeding into assembly plants. I believe the new meat plant in the United States is standing by idle and it has affiliated a -- factories all around at the -- things into it. We have in this country a history of incredible logistics in various manufacturing industries. Why can we not turn that expertise. Towards manufacturing devices that are simply little bit smaller than cars and I might say. Less complex. So the -- example is a great example right this is a plant. That everyone said could never exist in the United States. And then a car company essentially said we're gonna take all of the principals from Japan and bring them over to the US and we're gonna revolutionize -- car manufacturing happens here. And it works at least for a little while until things fell apart. Here's an example of why. Why be hard for iPhone it's so. Most factories that you go into that manufacture electronics have set sizes that they can deal -- for for instance the thickness of a phone. You'll notice that most of the phones that are created and in and talking a little bit out of things I know a lot about but but -- this is what I've been told by others and most phones except for the iPhone when they get thinner and thinner and thinner. Happens in lock step right the Motorola product along with. Nokia product. They all seem to get -- at the same time and that's because some of those factories have managed to come up with machines that can you now deal with a new -- Apple's different. Apple and the iPhone has gotten thinner much faster and they changed the shape of the phone much faster. That's because they're not constrained by using the same machines as everyone else. And as a result they can be much more innovative. And that's what we would lose your exactly right we can do anything in America this is an MBs -- country. But at some point it becomes a question of cost effectiveness -- -- and once you Begin using machines for manufacturing. You Begin standardizing. And what you standardized you'd typically have to amortize the cost over multiple companies. That's what Apple -- would -- and that's the argument that they make. If you really want to change and -- go -- bring a Michael hit. Just in China from that restrict its contract that like Apple that's standard station -- felt -- one of the reasons. Apple is able to get scale but it does because unlike any other companies don't -- -- the city of all. Standard -- and you very specific line and then instead of -- Or five or six model available they're simply delete. The one mobile way to but -- -- I'm -- big trouble with this argument as I gotta tell you I Honda last year made 826000. Cars and trucks in the US grant does not 37 million iphones -- a Japanese manufacturing company. Brought manufacturing to the United States Toyota Hyundai BMW Mercedes of all -- -- factions the United States and they're making customized products. I understand the standardization issue but there are things that we do in granted we're talking here at a macro scale -- -- on an iPod scale on iPhone scale. But the argument that the phone can never be made here. Charles it it just it sounds like. Apple has gotten TU. -- out -- let let me be clear about what it about I don't auto manufacturing for instance. We -- auto manufacturing what is being done here in the US. Is a medium -- the high skilled work right -- a car a friend of mine Adam Davidson just wrote a great piece for the Atlantic monthly. About going inside a factory manufacturing factory in the United States. And what he pointed out is that the work that's -- there is done by people who have a background in calculus they don't have a college degree. They very often have a year or two more than high school and so they have the ability to work very complicated machines that if something goes wrong could be very very costly. Now let's look at the BMW plant that you mention -- -- Honda. The -- being done in the US are not the things that are really really simple. -- that those parts are being made in China are being made overseas and are being sent to the US and then put together here. It with precision instruments that need to be handled by someone who knows how to use them. So it's not as if we've taken that a dumb job and brought -- back to the US because Honda wanted to. What they're -- is doing is saying that. American workers are among some of the most educated in the world we want to take advantage of that. And for horror which it's very very costly to ship as a finished product. We're gonna take. All the component pieces make them where it's cheap and then bring them back to the US to put them together because. -- -- it's a very happy or thing be they're so expensive each one of them it's that it's actually worth that to sort of pick up these extra dollars on. By avoiding shipping costs but more importantly the jobs that are being better jobs that Americans uniquely can do. -- the U with the iPhone -- that it's a very different device semiconductors to the opposite iPhone four arrests the semiconductors are being made in Austin. By Samsung the Korean company. Why -- they be made an Austin. Because we have -- really really Smart Americans and Austin who can make semis but then -- shipped overseas to China to get put into the iPhone. Because there's nothing about assembling that phone -- you actually need someone -- details. And it and point B eight point taken into I think it's worth noting that Apple does have employees in the US -- -- 43000 of them and they're not assembling. A teeny tiny iphones that are designing them -- and then of course is the affiliate software industry all the apps developers here in the US. But still. Anyway one of the things -- I do wanna talk about is. And -- I'll ask you this now. Have you put your money where your mouth is if you still using Apple products or have you been looking for -- -- American manufactured phone for example. Well you know it's it's an interesting question. -- first I I always. -- the decision I made. Myself really just means its -- way trip. An upgraded. So I'm talking on the same -- well I'd need -- in China a majority. I understand that that's not sustainable. Forever that because of the way technology works slowly sinking into a kind of planned -- -- Hallmarks Apple and -- -- company. -- I also don't think that very healthy -- and to define ourselves. Apparently -- only will be right there. Are. People. What. Should. Make -- because it'll. It'll church. Short power. It papers. And chart very important but what's it like -- -- Are more important than your purchase. You if you are -- action. -- -- because were still in the dark so. About the labor situation. -- in China we know what's going -- our hearts but. LR. That we -- Wait for a large group of what we pay -- oversee that we could. Carper offer and not see -- -- Are constantly using Apple. I am -- -- new ones I think what kind of I'll probably look like market -- -- And keep working out the change in what I'll be. One of the big arguments here to CNET newsroom is that while everybody is very interest in the stories today. When I talked about doing the show people are saying you know what consumers don't care the story's gonna be dead and two days. Of people go on buying the gadgets that they love. Apple had its biggest gain in stock price ever recently I think just went up 10% last couple of days -- Forgive me if I'm wrong on that. And that people do not care about exploitation free products and that because they do not care and will not pay for at that Apple etc. will never legally. Push the envelope in building. Responsible products. Not Mike Charles Bennett kind of Begin to close with Apple what do you think of that assertion that ultimately this is fun to talk about -- inching to talk about. But that consumers will not budge on their habits as long as Apple keeps the drugs are the product prices solo. I think Tuesday is a long history of of showing that that's not true over time right I mean the best example is looking at the textiles industry. There was a period where. Lots of folks talked about how -- it was in textile factories and they would complain about Nike and they would complain about the gap. In for a lot of time lot of time nothing happened even others' voices were out there. And -- something. It's -- some sort of line in the sand was cross and and it if it happened primarily among. Students on college campuses. And the student at the college campuses some of the stuff by Nike some -- -- -- in the gap but it's -- -- that sales really went down but what happened was that there was this drumbeat of criticism. That executives within those companies said were worried about the integrity of our brands were worried that going forward we're going to be. Open to attack by competitors. Because. People are gonna think of Nike and think of sweat -- and that's -- -- the change it didn't take. Everyone changing their Bahrain -- it's -- didn't even take. Huge number of people knowing about these conditions overseas. But it did take a consistent drumbeat of awareness. In -- and the gap or two of the most responsible company is in the nation right now in terms of policing and improving the conditions among the supplier. As long as we're on the topic without Wal-Mart from talk about making a lot of its money from manufacturing in China as Wal-Mart -- -- -- -- I'm not an expert on Wal-Mart -- my colleagues who are but I can say that Wal-Mart is considered one of the leaders particularly when it comes to Green energy. Wal mart's. Addressing of environmental issues has transformed. -- packaged goods and the reason why is because Wal-Mart is so big. And it took a long time to get there again. -- never saw a hit in their sales with people and stop going into Wal-Mart because they had heard about environmental issues. But when there's a drumbeat of criticism. Eventually executives say look. We can't afford to take this risk we need to address -- if there's a number of executives including an Apple and every other company to say. By the way this is the right thing to do we care deeply about this issue we want to address that -- in fact. You'll find numerous people outside Apple including at the top of the company who say. Social responsibility is a real important value to us and we need to we need to be focusing on it. Mike what's your -- in in in talking. In studying this issue do you think that. Apple genuinely believes in cares and has the fortitude to make the changes required in order to be the responsible company that I think a lot of people want that to be including new. Yet I mean -- -- for certain. The question is is that having bode well action and electric really strong what Charles -- -- people are really quick. -- Factors that changes -- -- An unending insider special economic so its. Manufacturing looks -- -- -- its tree exploration. How electronics certainly now elderly. Years ago -- changes constantly of this. Well what we think I'd change is inevitable. Negative and that we imagine that -- impossible when he could even need positive human. -- It's I don't have web site to prepare -- to this but -- got a lot of email from that -- America like. I hear just a couple weeks ago that a lot of people Apple. Chose they would write their private. Or they don't want to appreciate writing media from either Apple. -- -- The drop -- again and again is that he -- of the program. Because so many Apple we are -- for. Subscribe this American life while they're -- They received the program and without even knowing it was coming in their -- and listened to it. And because tomorrow problem inside Apple because one of the things that makes corporation changed that we forget from the corporations or -- people. You can change the hearts and minds of people have been people out -- company began if you drumbeat. Of that Charles a real problem and bring attention to. Again and again and again. -- want to -- And they start seeing ways that they can't. Date noble whole and they make changes -- -- That's what we're seeing with this wonderful series that Charles the other are for the size I'm hoping that but with this kind of attention. That -- but it's another step on the stroke. We're gonna -- with that guys has been a fantastic discussion -- daisy. Is an author playwright monologue as he is reopening. His story is monologue about his visit to the Foxconn plant called the agony and the Ecstasy of Steve Jobs. It's at the public theater in New York for the next five weeks and I understand it's been completely updated. Based in part on the work of Charleston -- and of the New York Times stories are right. That is correct the strictly so much of what Charles. Now that its outlook public consciousness I don't have to do as much -- the show I can -- talk about you know what the next step. And -- -- is now one of the authors of a great series -- New York Times about. Apple its role in the global economy its role in workers' rights and so on. He has a new book coming out in a month called the power of habit you can pre order on Amazon right now check -- out Charles we may have you back to talk about that book. -- gentlemen thank you so much for making the time this has been a great conversation I was glad I'm so glad to get the both if you guys together any final words as we wrap up this reporter's roundtable. And really enjoy having me in I'm you know I got a chance to see Mike stow away a couple of weeks ago and and would recommend it to anyone who -- who's in New York it was really it's a really interesting show and and more importantly you know if anyone is watching this are in the audience who feel strongly about these issues arm or. Thinks that there's a story that we should be working on the times please reach out to me and them to spend -- and do Hagan NY times. And we really rely aren't people telling us this is what you should be talking about the -- -- stories that really welcome hearing from anyone. It's fantastic journalism on both your parts. Charleston -- from the -- time Mike daisy. From might be easy productions and nagging ex chief Steve Jobs -- thank you so much -- have room for watching thank Steve for producing we will see all in a week from today on another episode of reporters' roundtable. -- -- -- -- -- Hey guys -- -- -- and hear from reporters' roundtable thanks for listening to that show -- one of the things that we didn't talk about in the interview adjusted with. Might -- in Charleston -- was a memo that Tim Cook the CEO of Apple put out. About working conditions -- -- overseas plants. And that memo is being reported on how widely including on CNET and we have a full story on it. -- I -- -- get. Charles is response to that memo since about what Tim Cook is talking about although he doesn't use the word New York Times in the story. Is the reporting. Including the reporting from the New York Times that -- being done and working conditions. So before Charles. Left to Skype -- -- him back up and we had a very brief discussion about Tim cook's response the reporting on Apple's working conditions. Well the story obviously has been developing quite a lot and it just the day after. When in the -- -- stories came out about the parts working conditions at Foxconn plant in others. CEO Tim Cook. Who. Is the operations guy and Apple to be -- became CEO -- who in fact is the guy who moved Apple's manufacturing to the state where it is now our country where it is now. Wrote a memo to employees and also said that. Anything that says that Apple does not care about every worker and supply chain was patently false and offensive. Charles identity is still with us here and -- I understand you've seen this memo you com. Any response. Based on what Tim -- -- here. They may have seen the memo and in him. The -- Our response to any thing Annan is always that we stand by -- reporting what works. We -- quite a long time on the story and feel very comfortable and secure in -- sources button -- and I haven't got a chance to speak with mr. -- with others about what specifically he -- -- -- he doesn't mention the New York Times story in the -- in his letter. Except to say that we stand by our story and and -- comfortable with -- Okay it's. I think it's -- response that he has an. You know to go to what we said at at the end of the show here where -- micro talking about of the constant drumbeat of criticism and attention. This may be wouldn't she say. A step in the right direction if the reporting that you did and there of the reports that other people down there are accurate through to have the CEO of Apple say. We are focused on educating we're gonna quoting from his memo we are focused on educating workers about the rights of -- empowered to speak up when they see unsafe conditions etc. You think you're having an effect. I really can't say I mean -- -- without doing reporting in it's unclear how to me how people outside Apple. Sar story and on whether they even -- the first place and time. Except to say that you know that -- -- based on the reporting that I have done that there aren't. Numerous people within the Apple including -- I believe from what I've been told mr. cook. Who take issues overseas seriously on and in -- I think that this reflects the the fact that it has been a priority for the company. -- Are well thanks for that response. Again the story keeps developing Apple CEO Tim Cook. On the record saying we take working conditions extremely seriously. And it will continue to report on this at CNET as some quirks near times -- well thanks again Charles it was a great to have you on around him. Think you take care he took.