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Ep. 81: Do cell phones cause cancer?CNET mobile phone editor Kent German and I talk with Dr. Debra Davis, Author of "Disconnect: The Truth about Cell Phone Radiation," about the emerging understanding that we don't quite know the effects of mobile phones on the brain -- especially the brains...
-- I don't know. Everyone welcome to reporters' roundtable our weekly deep dive into a single tech topic each time. -- -- we are discussing the safety or questionable lack thereof of mobile phones now last month the international agency for of the research for research on cancer which is an arm of the world for health organization. Said it now is listing mobile phones in the same category as led. Gasoline exhaust. And chloroform. As carcinogenic hazard. Previously. The -- and the -- markets at that there were no adverse health effects that they knew of from the use of -- In the wireless industry of course including -- -- And -- and the FCC and the US Food and Drug Administration has also long said that cell phones are safe. But aren't. Which is are we doomed to bounce back and forth between the belief that mobile phones are safe and that they are not. Or is the tide turning. We're moving towards a widespread understanding of dangers. And if so is the mobile phone industry going to be in the future taking them in the same. Estimation as the tobacco industry is. Maintaining position that scientific research. Disagrees with vehemently. That's we're discussing today and we have two great guests sitting here in the studio with me our section editor on the mobile phone beat. Kent German irate. Thanks for coming back to the -- Absolutely and joining us via Skype doctor Deborah Davis who's the author of this book. Disconnect. The truth about cell phone radiation what the industry has done to hide it and how to protect your family. She's epidemiologist and environmental health researcher and the founding director of the toxicology and environmental studies board of the National Academy of Sciences. And the president and founder of the environmental health trust doctor Davis thank you very much for making the time join us. So I'm going to get started. With can't hear. Because. You've been covering mobile phones or at least as long as you've been here seven and -- years on the missing men become -- to Florida and you have seen the debate on this topic. Wayne and -- and give us a brief history of the controversy. On the cell phones cause cancer or damaged topic. -- -- -- -- -- -- Terror act really for started covering this could -- even before I got your scene and has long had its operation chart where we list the specific absorption rate from pounds review of -- in the last. And that's really what we did for a long time and -- at first there wasn't. There wasn't a lot that I wrote about -- I wrote a lot about other than that but then -- spent time here began to notice the difference studies were coming announce. And there's always been to date. Whether cellphone radiation or the electromagnetic radiation or electromagnetic for the -- from a cellphone. It is dangerous or not it's been on an image of in this debate is largely centered on cancer but there are a host of of -- elements that people looking into -- well and so. It's been to come back and forth and you know longtime industry like you said said there's no evidence that they are dangerous and that's what they relied on. Who and then we've seen we've in the last couple years were beginning to see at the state local level especially. Legislation the -- to address this issue whether it's designed to address this -- human. None of the -- successfully. San Francisco as an exception but that's kind of -- story which we can talk about later. To say either put a warning label or two and mandate the -- listed on the phone or on the box at the point of sale so. To make consumers more aware of what's going on apparent and then in this here like it's bad there's a tremendous -- -- studies. And the most recent one is when you mentioned and the most significant one about that's study is you had an organization like World Health Organization which the industry as -- pointed to human said. They say it's safe so therefore it is. He had this organization of that size and magnitude and influence money on saint. Well site we got -- we got a look at him. Aren't so how did you come across -- Davis here because you know there's been a lot of -- a lot of people who talk about this on one side or the other and they come across says. Very strident in her heart to latch onto the scientific evidence here's how to -- you be used octaves and several stories terror. How about well first got started because -- -- you like is that we cover this for a long time and we've been covering the different studies have been covering the government regulation and my colleague at CNET news' Maggie Reardon who did a three part series recently on this issue we -- and I was working with her on it. And I was just in a bookstore and I saw the book on the shelf and thought -- we should read this -- gonna write this we're gonna write this series. So but they shouldn't barrage you with screening email marketing campaign now I actually I -- -- publishers PR rep and I said hey can I get a review copy -- -- over. I read it in her talk to doctor Davis into the human embryo and -- ran a part of -- story that have just found it in a bookstore. Great well the quiet method works -- -- Davis again thanks for joining us and tell us how you managed to. -- latch onto this as a topic you've studied many things in epidemiology correct. I certainly have I've been working in this field for almost forty years I worked at the national and the science is on asbestos. And -- passive -- an active smoking so I've been around for awhile I started to look at this issue I actually own three pounds. And I that was ridiculous to think there could be anything wrong with. But I as I looked into that I realized I was wrong. So. As before we get into that I want to take a little detour to physics class here. And just really briefly if you could tell us a -- on -- -- and protect a technical baseline for us and give us that a physics lesson and and how mobile phones. Work in and as regards to what we're going to be talking about in a minute here. Matured as well let's do is after and an ideology that what I can tell you is that cell phones are based on form of microwave radiation. And they -- it -- it it's really stunning. That the way they were developed is actually what extent. It was after World War II when they're role is really an electrical engineers around there was a contest going on between them. It. The guys at Motorola. And the guys that they'll collapse and they -- something a lot because after they cannot work or space and you. And Motorola had some brilliant engineers working near. And they. Figured that. There was nothing they could do about it that they they all want to go skiing and so the pressure pointedly from ski trip -- them together and they took this technology that was extraordinary it basically involved getting -- -- -- -- supervisory unit. It's as simple chips let me back up the car phones at that time that we -- -- -- this. The car phones that whatever it took out. -- -- -- -- had one of them and they took up about half of the -- With all of that all the stuff that is needed. Not to power those phones they weren't really so much mobile phones as. Devices -- had -- stopping him call the operator. And get -- get connected -- call so they have basically. Create this very compact way of putting into a very small device. All a bit microprocessors needed. Two relays signals to pick up the signal from its power to connected back to the -- so they. Voice information is turned to date at which that gets sent back the -- back to the phone. The limiting factor in the beginning was as it is is it is now the tower. In the beginning there weren't -- -- and so. And I heard a story that -- -- actually had the first opened in London he had wondered how certain that when you're the -- you can do that but. That was widely access so little development -- and it is in the beginning. But took a long time to get infrastructure going to now. -- anti net. You said just a minute ago that self -- his form microwave radiation and of course we all know the story of how microwaves were. Discovered some -- was doing some research and the chocolate bar in his. Now shirt pocket and melted and forget that once. A so obviously microwaves and that form of radiation has an impact on physical and physical things. A we know full well that radiation. Whether it's from a nuclear disaster. Or from a targeted being at an oncology unit in -- hospital has an effect on cancer either good or bad. -- what type of radiation comes out of a phone that is similar or not similar to the types of radiation that we know impact biology. Our biology. It's interesting and complicated. The frequency of the microwave. That it's used is similar to the frequency and microwave oven. Which you know in one minute and -- cup of water. -- the color of what might -- -- is a thousand watts out. And the power of the phones less than one watt. -- -- -- So for years it was thought and I thought this as well. That because the microwave frequency that is used -- -- with so much weaker -- several thousand -- weaker. An oven it was physically impossible for to have any damage that. And that's what I -- look at the literature and I was stunned at what I found. Which is that they office of naval research -- -- -- -- -- had -- before so confident in a lot of nobody -- -- -- ever existed. Showing that the -- microwave signal which is what happens -- The very week. Had the capacity. To disrupt the blood brain -- And he did and that's the starting work that was done wait -- is injected an animal with the die. And the dike did not get to the break when he injected the animals the diet and exposed to microwave radiation and I did get to. Actually back that. Fact is used now in medicine to deliver chemotherapy agents delivering. So something good from -- -- in the world -- -- conference on. And it's integrated actually let me break it might always have very positive applications in medicine and frankly in war. We can take a form of microwave energy and blow up IDD the weapons before they blow up our guys. In -- rocket in Fallujah these things were used but those are very powerful devices totally different from what we're talking -- These phones the issue for the phones is simply this. You could put -- on -- head of a couple calls and you're not gonna drop -- Unless you happening right now -- about the -- that other bulbs going on the it's leaking and there are reports that things happen but using -- -- like that -- kill you once or twice. I'm not concerned frankly but also people so much although I am concerned about some people who you're insensitive -- the real issue is children. The real issue is that you never tested these devices for safety with the developing brain that inner skull with more than what it. Okay we're gonna would that is going to be the crux of what we get to them and still wanna lay some ground work here before we talk about the effect of a mobile phone -- which I've -- I'm with you -- I wanna get into very much. Can you that you mentioned here something that we hear a lot and we've been doing it CNET which is -- -- -- print or report we report on a phone's Sar level. What is a Sar level and and how much of an indicators at first cantonment and then you partners. It really measures the amount radiation being put out and so in the US and in Canada actually. A phone is tested by the FCC and by the respectively team Canada. About whether how much it puts out and to be sold in the United States needs to be under one point six watts for -- so that's the -- use that written in -- -- declare with one point six watts of energy per. Kilogram of -- of what it's from beautician. I'm -- -- she -- -- I can't remember exactly but it. -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- absorption into that the brain that. They test the phone next to see if -- Maggie -- actually went to the labs and -- amendment to make showed that she sees the phone being tested next to -- Next to this dummy and will we -- -- and it that the -- but there is written or something with an analog of brain -- that -- -- probe into a test they don't like that volunteers. -- know right now yes -- volunteer effort to keep this site. It's like an empty plastic bowling ball -- all the guys hit the directly. Eight about 220 pounds eleven had. And they have a hole in the top they were -- but did something that looks like a a big. Like a gallon jug and while -- yet but they've created -- liquid that specific density that mirrored the density. Of the brain it's all right away you know that this problem because the rain doesn't have one in the -- -- So that the numbers used every sold in the in the US house that so you can find it on the Boxee can find it in the user manual and -- -- site. And owns its its like miles per gallon it is at least consistent among devices even if as as that Davis says it may not be the most. Reliable and most accurate but at least it's. Device to device. But is it is a number that people and -- -- -- reliant okay and the in the CTI which is it. Wireless Anderson lobbying arm in Washington if they I -- their their line as well every phone sold. Every console opening in this Sony that's. Now the problem with relying on that number is a couple things as there is no real evidence that something with a lower sorry is inherently safer than somewhat -- -- -- -- one point Korea on it was point nine. There's no evidence of the point nine is gonna be inherently -- -- -- let's talk about safety in the findings so that WHO. Released this report. Saying that they're considering mobile phones. Possible but they say they're -- -- -- possible carcinogens went. I think not possible I think it was actually art I like it and they listed him and emit the the other elements -- dimensions. This talk about that that dumb. That study was it and epidemiological study or was it was it an experimental study doctor Davis who -- tells what that DeVito found there. Well let's -- -- stance on the W -- show was a group of 31 of the world's top experts in public health experts including people who spoke remodeling. An invite with the sorts of measure of the rate for radio frequency energy -- by the body. From from the source that's being -- so what this group included with people who are expert -- -- -- People like meals -- who was there as an advisor to the group has developed a lot of the models that -- used currently people who were expert on. Experimental testing of cell -- looking at heat conditions in whole animals. And people working epidemiology. So they looked at the pool of great scientific evidence they spent quite some time -- of this evidence. And it worked really hard and they reached an almost unanimous agreement based on what they saw there. Cell phone radiation and electromagnetic fields are possible cause of cancer in the same category as diesel engine exhaust. And will reform its -- California could that it. We've proven human present them. Yes that's important point this wasn't this wasn't it a new study it isn't like -- who got together into their own study the study of studies yeah basically a report on -- that decision they look at everything and said Greg. Okay so. Wow so it was their focus that was just in general -- -- -- -- you're focusing on to get into this thing that you're very keen on here which is as it. That's a parent myself but I think this is important. Your focus is controlled and tell us why that is. Well the developing brain is is really amazing at -- -- -- has -- hundred billion brain cells and by H two there's 200 billion more. That's a phenomenal rate of it didn't bring doubles the birds. Two years. And anything that the brain is gonna be exposed to early on -- life has the potential is tremendous -- magnified effect just because the rate of growth itself. Home and skulls of children are thinner. And this -- and -- -- he won't fluid as it until the dialect of content. Which is the measure of the potential we'll sort of radio frequency radiation from the director content of the Ares one. The director constant migraine is probably about sixty to eighty and the dynamic ads are thirty to forty. And the director -- child's brain is 68. So -- check -- hand just by virtue of their director constant adjustments -- -- twice as much radiation as an adult and we just released a paper yesterday. At the -- meeting the violent commitment society -- in Halifax. -- with with Lloyd Morgan on oh god Ian Clarke solace where -- went through all the models and know that -- -- brain and showed that. There's general agreement with all the different. Models developed by industry for the most parts -- develop independently. Showing that children's brains will actually absorb more radiation -- adult and the bone marrow in his skull. Can absorb ten times more than that until now there you have spam is welcome and that's great -- -- -- And that's how got -- and that's what we're we're testing here is ours or -- Yes that's -- it it's absurd that the machine that puts the probe B and it does it of reckoning -- the computer software program. The and measures the amount of of that study showed him. It's so. Are right so I am -- coming around to being convinced see how you cannot be that. Radiation. -- energy from mobile phones of course you know it's in the air around us of course the the body -- -- summit and what I'm coming to understand here is that we may not know enough about what that does what do we do from this point forward do we tell our children. Don't use a phone do we read the instruction I mean there are -- things in and phone instruction manuals are they're not saying. Don't use the phone the way -- naturally want to use the phone. It depends an instruction manual it part of this -- awhile ago is that all the manufacturers in instruction in some part whether it's in the safety manual -- -- the user guide. It says the U will must if you and they know the very language will -- Hold the phone at least point five inches or up to -- eighty point 95 inch point 95 inches away from your head. If not if you don't do that it may. Surpass the FCC mandated radiation models so they're hedging. So. That they -- are so what about other so that basically they're saying well. It's safe but if you hold it closer to your head. It might not be and I don't tell you anything beyond that -- some actually rim for instance libraries they actually say. -- pregnant women should opinion -- abdomen. -- It atom in payment and children specifically but it does depend on the manufacture some are more specific than others but -- everyone says marveled at the little way -- Not -- how many people are grandmother from the meaning none of them nothing that's gonna. Can't I've been watching you have watched you open -- the new Apple iPhone four when you first at one of those little demos on it -- act which I owed by the way. And you opened the package and is it -- here it's this little information -- in tossed. A way that we just want it to program. That's. I did that and then I thought. Oh my goodness this is really interesting is right there might break it says -- six point type by the way. That you have to hold it -- away from your body and it also does warn -- that you can put in your pocket. You can exceed the FCC -- -- well guess what we're most guys keep their phone. The reality it's phone to tested in only two positions they're tested yet in a holster by the way. And access to next thing. -- -- house we don't have happily don't have a bunch of. Well. Let me just say crystal ball we may have toddlers -- help with infected by their mothers there. And the problem we have -- birth defects which are very serious problem. Is that because -- so complex. And because we know of they have multiple causes. We still don't know what the causes of birth defects -- and in very small number of cases which are inherited. Or be able to say that they. And whether it's a growth of these are not oh my gosh I hope we don't see that frankly. What I see as a scientist who spent years looking at the data and somebody who is -- -- user myself. And understand -- they're great value for converts -- medicine for emergencies. What I see is we gotta take the step back and say look let's examine what we know we don't know let's understand what is -- the Israeli government. The very tech savvy nation. To issue warnings about so once the children to require that still won't be sold with this are printed on it and that -- of these over the headset. Why don't -- have more of an effort internationally. To find out why other countries have reached -- determination. What's gone on and I do document this in my book disconnect and I am frankly. It hasn't been well promoted and this and I didn't write the book to sell books I read the book to change the way -- think about this issue. But what I documented in my book is -- with industry has done very successful is to capture the expert groups. Often getting people who are not themselves aware that they're being captured by giving them an interesting research project to do. So let me tell you if someone who ran a major center. All I want is money that these are -- the immigrants to pay some income giving money to the study let me give an example -- that happen. -- showed you inject dye into the Bane. Of an animal and that -- will get into brain after supplement each of study was done where the dye is injected into his stomach. And it won't. Yeah I would sacrifice after five minutes there was no evidence that the diet and get the Green and that study was used as proof. -- there was no impact on the blood -- very. And research is doing this study were not themselves as sophisticated enough to quite understand. How they had been hoodwinked and so you get honest people who are enthusiastic about issues in the whole situation has become. So overwhelmed with the complexity. Of the fact that the industry has treated science as a form of public relations. -- in my book -- document the story of the reflex project. More than three million euros were given to support twelve different laboratories. Throughout Europe by the European Union. What -- -- study the European Union to examine so -- radiation and its impact on brain cells from. And the man who started that study like me thought cellphones have to -- -- it's impossible for this week radiation has any effect. I IE appreciate the scientific perspective but given that -- What you -- saying is we don't know but it looks worries some not on my -- -- -- everybody start wearing tin foil hats. So the question I I have and the question that you know all CNET. Gadget fans have is -- what do I do. I mean aside from not letting my kid talk on the phone for five hours at a time holding the phone -- -- here what can I do myself should I use a wired headset and is Bluetooth safe. Etc. canned and -- and they're very at their very. Simple things you can't you and I think this all comes down to your level of concern is I don't. It's certainly I hear from readers all over the spectrum and some people say it's ridiculous -- I don't worry about this at all some people say they are concerned. I would advise you not to concentrate so much on the -- and say well it's -- said earlier it's gonna be safer rather think about how you use the phone and if you are concerns simple easy to -- You can tax incentive you -- you can limit your phone use you can use a headset you cannot put the phone. Next year bed at night I would never Alex it would recommending -- doing that and you turn it -- you need is an alarm turn on airplane mode. I guess some people put it under their pillow I would not recommend doing. If you -- where -- carrying the -- you weren't you maybe don't carried in your pants pocket. And be careful when you're using the phone and a place this port signal because if there's a port -- -- working harder console to reach the tower. Say that again I think that's an important point eight and so when this signal on the phone is a week when -- weak signal from the tower. Your phone. Is making -- fourth -- it's working harder to reach that have yet now I don't think that -- was that you said which I want to ask about you said somewhere in your book. That the peak radiation exposure -- occurs in the moment you first click to answer the phone can you expand on that yet. Well that Sony just a little extra boost of energy collecting grabs that signal and justice Kent just said. That's when you're gonna get more of a jolt of energy because it's the antenna in the phone. That the antennas are symmetrical so -- put -- radiation and perfectly symmetrical fashion. And as a consequence costly capital radiation from the phone when it's held here is getting into your brain. That's that's what we -- now it gets more into the brain. Five development to that of an adult but it does get -- -- Into the brain and as a consequence. When you have weak signals and that phone has has to work much harder to reach the towers -- just said. If you were weak signal -- -- -- on your battery drains right. The reason it -- is because it's using more energy to try to reach that tower. It's designed to reach the tower so whenever -- condition the weak signal turn your phone off. Certainly when you're in an elevator or moving fast -- in -- train. Less it's that specially equipped for the wireless. Turn it off because you're gonna get constant. Jolting or reaching signals and -- if that sounds trained to do. We have a bunch of really good questions from listeners that I wanna get to a second but before we do that I have to really quickly -- can get to that that have come up and in -- before the show. The it used to be that mobile phones had external antennas. And you you you you hear the phone ring you -- antenna up. And you talk on the phone and that meant the and that the antenna instead of being pressed against your cheek was pointed up and it was that better. I just. And probably any other reason that happened is cellphone design -- people want it and are found people that want the antenna sticking out and the design system like that -- -- put the man -- the problem with that is. Is a lot of the phones now when you look at it there's no real. Evidence where the antenna and seemingly RAZR V three -- right and it's right in your pinky in the Motorola RAZR retreat was -- of the very first phones to have antenna on the bottom a lot of people don't realize of course the iPhone four. It's all around you it goes -- on the whole exterior the phones have. It today that move has been has definitely had an effective. And doctor Davis before the show started you were giving me a hard time about my review of the Scott. And what the heck of the problem I put the phone in a pocket it's of -- separated by my body by two or three layers of clothing now so -- this thing a problem. Well if you a heavy layer clothing was in the winter it might be okay a couple of days but most. That that's not the case -- to see what -- -- I think under and I'm very concerned about the iPad but there's a locked room or because the iPad has never. In approved. We're directly being held next to the bodies of work to be used at a distance of 27 meters that's the little more than eight inches that's when it's tested. And don't -- have to be aware of it in. Absorption and radiation from ipads has never. It intended to be directly body. That -- an informant or neurological injury they Cuba. A kind of burn people get -- -- laptop to their match -- he. Right well that is that is just -- but it's also telling you that these radiation involved. Is because you wouldn't be getting heat if you -- radiated by the fine. Of that signal and these devices are here because they are intended to be used -- -- They've not been tested for safety being -- directly next to the body. And to be bloggers got to be clear of the iPad the three G versions of many many tablets have mobile radios in them -- I just wanna make that clear everybody is listening -- though. It's they're they're not they are like phones even if they don't have -- gonna make a call yet. I mean you see your passionate about it for Internet and is SEC also -- -- different things they test for voice calls for -- -- and they also test for a mountain. And they tested on the body is an intestine and Dexter had let's. Yet it does it Wheaties the Apple iPhone four went remember when they complain about the Internet I think you guys -- jokes about this and said here's the safe way to number he held it up. And he put it down and and -- that's a safe place that's how I use my Apple for and everything Bluetooth is better. If you don't keep the phone in your pocket. If you do keep the phone and pocket it's it's not. Using headsets like this -- don't keep the phone in your pocket and don't have the wire right her off of your body. Just understand that distance is your friend. Yes and Bluetooth actually a lot of your -- -- to remember that Bluetooth is designed to work with them thirty feet so the amount of power Bluetooth is putting out -- Significantly less than a phone of phones designed to work for tower miles away right Bluetooth is -- over -- Okay let's take a couple questions here from listeners these came into the chat room while we were speaking here. -- says I only have a cell phone as my primary telecommute communications device because of this it is usually within arm's reach. How worried should I be about growing extra arms and he's kidding but how worried should he be because that is his one and only Telecom lifeline. Government health ministry has recently posted advice on their website. Encouraging people to not. -- phones in that way and have land -- the French government is also issued warnings that people should have land -- The reason to have a land line which is not a cordless phone does not sell them. Is twofold first of Austin security purposes when electricity goes down when towers go down and they will. With disasters you don't have any phone at all. Secondly and more importantly. By having a land line you're not committing yourself to be exposed to wireless and -- added part of health trusts are deeply concerned. About the move to basically abolish landline. -- we think that that's the big state. We recognize that wireless can be very valuable in rural areas. Where they don't have access to to land -- but we think the proposal that the FCC's recent put out there that would effectively do away with land line. Is -- the real problem. I'm not familiar with the proposal if -- he's -- with violence there. Now I know that they're referring excuse me that -- -- spoke. I'm referring to getting away with providing additional service finally had to rural areas that's the first step -- -- -- them that they. Yes now there are episodes there are entire countries who are you know leapfrogging the -- Telecom build up and going straight to mobile. Israel was one thing and now the Israelis are rethinking that and that's a very tech savvy nation is now. All right now the question from spike how does this compare to flying in an airplane we hear this all the time I I presume this. In an altitude and if the radiation I mean -- -- above the nurturing blanket of the Earth's atmosphere at least most of it and you're getting bombarded by radiation from from the sun from solar from from space house. It's cosmic rays how ridiculous cancers that are more that are like X rays they are known to. Damage the body in and began to bush and if -- gonna. There is a small risk over a lifetime of for those who fly all the time pilots and and flight attendants that you. And and that is why I think we have to understand there are tradeoffs and there is a small risk that this -- -- -- anyone use is trivial it's trivial. That's not the concern concerning your kids and my grandkids. What is it going to -- then rolling up a lot of radio frequency energy that never existed in human history. What about Wi-Fi Wi-Fi is all around us now you know and those transmitters are in our homes I mean -- M minus. You know -- concern about that is that different. Well I believe -- router should have on off switches so that people have the option to turn them off an industry to keep fighting this now because -- saying what -- you have an on off switch. People realize that there's radiation there and -- have the ability to turn it off. There are people who believe that they are sensitive to what -- radius. Scientific studies on this have been unclear at this point although there's some very strong evidence emerging out of studies in the year. So the answer is like a -- things in science we -- search. But there is enough compelling evidence now. That it would be foolish. For us to proceed as we are in the state of Maine right now and in many areas. Giving away wireless devices like ipads to kindergartners. Believe it or not some schools are doing. I'm I think it's very worrisome because we never tested these devices and the long term consequences for remain. Unknown and there are some people. With certain sensitivities to these devices -- made it very small percentage but according -- Americans -- disabilities act they deserve to be protected you. To -- to left with questions and we're gonna run at a time -- says. Can you ask if the OnStar system that's that system in cars has been tested by the government as a cellphone and we do you know that. I don't know actually I would assume that the I would assume it's interesting question there I mean. There are I know a little bit of looking at about the if between -- phones and hand and mobile phones and hand held phones and the thing about -- -- phones is a little bag phones. I believe I'm not mistaken they were -- different from by the FCC. And they had a three watt maximum transmission power -- mobile phone has I think point six watts maximum transmission power. So car phones actually can radiate more but in their holy -- -- again. That make sense to -- as well on antennas here. An -- -- its next it. The most important thing is -- distance if you're -- we have very specific advice on our website. Free -- is an essential link to that. We could download safety cards can download -- doctor's advice it was there are taught some of the world's top neurosurgeons. It explains why you needed it for Hawkins and we tell -- the top I think you can do to protect yourself and they're really it's not that -- it really isn't. You missed one -- two. Honestly if -- well don't let children use phones except for emergencies use a headset. Bluetooth or wired headset and only use a phone singles -- in cases of emergency. And particularly pregnant women and young children should avoid having close contact with -- if you must get your. Tout the phone to distract them on that -- -- trip program turn off. The wireless so they're playing with something that can't connect as as entrapment with that wireless signal that something we need to get smarter about. Thanks to the point here is that if you're worried about it there are the things you can do we're very easy and its interest and -- yet educate yourself on it and I -- with the CTI says and United's industry -- cover all the time I go to -- here and shows and it troubles me their response it is some of these studies that come out. Response now they -- it 1993 can you you know that and that's. I think it's really unfortunate there are good and honest people -- the cellphone industry and some of them are telling me. That they know they can't say -- found that the lawyers don't want them to admit it because than their liability questions. But just yesterday the FTC. Spoke out. Issuing guidance at this safety in cellphones which they said those chips generally don't work as far as they know and they tell you if you want to be safe. Do the things that can't mine -- -- using headset uses speakerphone text. And you can turn into some Clinton still supply. But it may be longer. We're gonna end on that note and I I encourage you guys to watch CNET news.com -- -- coverage on this doctor Davis's book disconnect. The truth about cellphone radiation what industries -- to -- and how to protect your family is available now. That Davis thank you so much for joining us has been very interest thing. Thank you so much in please visit our website EH trust dot org for more information. Can -- -- come an end user even thanks for producing. That is it for this edition of reporters' roundtable I will put links to important documents and stuff in the show notes featured check that out on the web on on CNET news.com. And the next show will be July 1 as I am off next week. So everybody have a great week without me I think you'll survive. Thanks again we'll see -- and -- once -- --