Reporters' Roundtable Ep. 115: New tools for InventorsIf you've got an idea for a product, there are new ways to bring it to market. Rafe Needleman talks with Yancey Strickler of Kickstarter and Jim Newton of TechShop about innovations in funding and prototyping.
Everyone its rate middlemen in San Francisco and this is reporters' roundtable -- with the -- a single tech topic each time. Today we're talking about a really interesting. Change in in technology and it is the rise of the of the small inventor. It has become easier than ever to launch a business thanks to cloud services and all the technology that is very low cost and it's getting easier now to get those businesses funded as well. Through projects like a kick starter project based on it or kick -- or -- or changes that are coming in in laws about funding businesses. And now if you have an idea and you don't know how to make it or build it or design the electronics fort. There are places you can go probably just down the street from where you are where people help you build that and put you in front of the machine that makes it. And that's the kind of stuff we're talking about today it is the rise of the inventor and with that two great guests were you gonna do at this shows in two parts a part one is that -- like -- request an -- -- -- show in two acts. Act one. Is an interview pre recorded interview with -- NC -- clear from kick starter. Kick start of course is the place where you go to fund -- that the film or project or the thing you want to make I have -- thing here that was. -- -- -- This thing is a -- set it's it it's that it's a pre cut would thing that was. The development which was funded on kick starter. -- and this and the prototypes were built at tech shop and -- our guests are first -- strict -- the co-founder kick starter. And after that interviews -- we're -- I have here in the studio with us Jim Newton the founder of tech shop. So this device the people who made this device which is awesome by Joyce called the Tribune shipped to distribution within ET TE yet intimate Q. They're both here let's get started with this pre recorded interview with the NC from kick -- and we back with Jim from -- Source starting today with the anti Strickland whose co-founder of kick starter. Affair interest in project started in 2009 to help. The crowd funding of up all kinds of projects Nancy thanks so much -- to join us. -- -- We have to -- with some -- you hear about you give us -- -- the overview on on kick -- -- why you started it and go and how it's doing today. -- -- The original idea for kick starter came from Cary Chien -- one of my co-founder and kicks or CEO. -- he was living in world news about ten years ago and you want a concert. Didn't have the money to do it and from that experience he had this idea. Of being able to set -- threshold where. A certain number of people wanted to concert to happen it couldn't happen and if not it wouldn't happen to wait for answer to test the idea without putting himself at risk personally. -- until he had an idea and then I unite net in New York about three years later Tom. -- was an artist I was working on music journalists. Object together we started working on -- -- -- about it. A year later we -- are there counter Charles Adler Bob who's the designer and out and submit to read non technical founders which it's the only not a good idea or not and it took about four years from must working on it to the -- -- launching in April -- nine. Annan says it was a long road and and we -- now every state that we could. Com byte at its site -- people when -- 2009. Op their personal launch party or anything like that com web site has worked fairly well since then. I I -- -- you know for a site that's designed to help people get funding how did you find yourself when you're getting started before kick starter existed. Yeah Dona and I can't say how many people suggesting that we try to start -- -- Harder job. You know that early money came from -- -- which is actually very similar experience -- -- -- -- on -- -- -- project on -- -- -- really. So the idea and -- that we're actually primarily artists. People who had gone through that -- are trying to get -- funded and it's an and we thought about a lot. We have funding system. Com now in our culture that is -- around profitability. On ideas our content based on how much revenue they produce is his investments in -- Rom and so but most ideas -- 99% of -- -- never urgent or any because they just simply want to -- that's the whole point. -- and those things just didn't -- song you know you can. -- applied for grants and wait a long time job you know you could try to you know alone you can get money from your rich uncle but there really weren't many other options. And we liked the idea of building a site that -- out -- place that they'll just around people's funny things just because they like. Because we want to exists not because -- any profit motivation Bernie. Now -- It's just an -- people who aren't -- familiar with texts -- yet -- -- I think most people should be. With kick start -- you're not making an investment in a product -- or a buying. The ticket or a product itself or the promise to get the output of -- of the project right. Yet that's -- is that there's no financial return and any time. -- and every project tasks offer reward your words are copied in being Maine jobs insert special edition may be some special property that -- Come visit and Saturn write -- -- about -- -- people offer really whatever they want by. -- financial return is strictly forbidden. Now kick started -- started out for an arts project music project. And looking at the numbers looks like most of your projects are in fact arts based button. This is primarily show about technology and technology entrepreneurship and ideas and and I wanna talk but that subset. How much of the kick starter model or the kick starter platform as it goes to. Technology or product based. Ideas and and how are those different from the arts projects. Yeah you know -- spin out I think right now with numbers about a 165. Million dollars has been -- -- starter. -- announced that 28 million dollars has gone to either technology or design. I'm not designed objects are includes product design which is probably something a lot of years. But -- -- -- here are familiar with -- that's graphic design people makes fonts and posters and more traditional. Design -- -- categories do you make up you know there are together they would be the third largest thing. And -- serve on its own music. While it's it's not mean we and it's -- -- now. You know the very first product design project that that really made an impact was one called the glass and that happened blah about a year and half ago. You guys who are here in New York Indiana Tom. But I really great videos -- this job iPhone four tripod stand. And everything about how it's -- the project was just perfect that they have a very clever video there updates were -- talk to now. 813 prototypes shipping them back porch and even before they got the right design. And the whole process is really fantastic. Aunt and answer that really -- kick starter on a map out a product designers. And then about two months after their project after the leopard project logical tick tock. I'm which was made I got Chicago and Scott Wilson is a very reputable designer's former creative director ninety's Tom in this list to turn up an iPod nano into -- -- -- making -- to do it. Projects job was really just an incredible blockbuster -- -- that raising almost 950000. Dollars in about six weeks is the largest project to that point was 200000 dollars this was. International news -- -- for a lot of people first introduction to kick starter. Aunt and you know -- -- through. Are we had mixed feelings about it on I -- Nicholas we actually turned down a couple times and went back and forth with them. We really encourage an -- to present this. Not as a new product they're bringing to market and more like -- sustainably made it -- excited about it you know make it very human and I don't ticket sales don't make an infomercial. Com and because that's -- presentation tune listening that's important to us Schwab. But against you now as we got to learn more more about how this world works. I began to see a lot of ways that it -- it does make sense now. You know -- Tom -- -- you were working at larger design firms. You know maybe their -- who designed some screw over some specific parts -- larger. They were able to express their own creativity these roles they're trained to be designers are trying to create. But they didn't happen now because the you know the bar keeping that money together to do you know manufacturing -- -- -- is pretty products. Thank you senator suddenly just you race and made it's that they GT in ninety history to market. I'm straight to an audience and not have to worry about this things in between should and so you know we -- designs on and it and technology as. As different kinds of creative wrong for people are expressing themselves. But there aren't there is court -- these things that's important to us job. You know who. I don't we're not -- -- are being your shopping site you know there's lots of shopping sites you want to be something -- different want to be. Here's stating I'm excited to make it can be a lot more fun to make it whiskey and and it's an experience they shared together and I think that's the best products -- It sounds like an existing duration problem that you have because you know you put. -- marketplace or commerce platform up there on the web and people the users will make -- -- what they want. And securely but you say you you reject projects so there is -- a -- and you are or you and your team. Our negate their so. What do you look for. Are you RE. What what will make a product project. Get banned or saying no -- actually go back and to do it again. Yet. You know there's there's the users -- -- -- misconception about -- that kind of level lockyer should happens kicks error. I'll set to start projects you you create your project and then we checked it -- live image and we're looking to make sure it meets our guidelines and in the guidelines -- -- most courts think we have searched from the guidelines are. I Caspian projects or product something with a beginning and end its its finite thing. It will produce something that will exist independent of its existence. Mom and so we see started in business is something that has much broader and project as -- for example. -- Yasser part of everything -- creative projects which means it's -- of one of her thirteen categories. Not we also don't -- -- be -- any charity based or cost based funding. -- those things are also not allow. And that's those that did the main point that we're looking each project from. And I'll turn -- you know don't have -- -- this artist SK EE. So if the product projects are to keep getting this wrong -- meets all of these guidelines and is by the book acceptable. -- in your experience -- what makes a project work. And what doesn't -- -- and excluding the out wires of a product for an Apple product. Because you know just like your scene and it can we write about Apple it's like okay we know that's gonna get traffic whether it's good or bad story just gets traffic excluding that one make something work or not work on kick -- Yeah you know. The point that we really I that I stress a lot -- that every kick starter is a story on and how this how the product is presented it is -- and court. Now you know there are few things that I use being court each project -- -- one. It should benefit and its backers just as much as its creator you know anything -- like cane give me all this money and I'm gonna make it. It's great seeing and you know I'll share photos -- with you when it's done it's just inherently an income fair we're looking for things where there's a guy in exchange and you really try to stress that people -- I was also the time to how people come to the projects is kind of what I was getting out the glass. Not -- -- -- -- -- personally and I think music group are much more sympathetic to projects. That are pursuing some sort of create a goal or some sort of personal achievement rather than a commercial interest. You know someone saying hey it again raised fifty K you know rehabilitate. Our business the next level due next -- -- is -- you be available to us I think that's a much less. Interest -- -- worrying one feels less important kick starter opt you know also there's is that that's fine prospecting is really important. And then also just how -- -- -- -- You know the really great projects happens video. -- explain how does -- mean this thing you talk can be design process that show a working prototype they need to -- they talk about. -- as they -- it out as they're gonna make this thing happen. I transparencies and now we see is really important especially product design. -- -- product design. You know you're you're -- often you know finding something that doesn't exist yet. -- -- that prototype at the active taking that prototypes and something that can be manufactured. You know 101000 times. This huge gap between us and so we like people talk about their experience that backers now -- -- this person actually pull this off. Are not -- and then also just even how far process -- you know there -- some projects. I'm gonna in the past that it had just like a 3-D render and you know I don't personally think that's enough. To really make -- taste or you'd be able to do something. Not so we actually don't get terribly involved and -- -- we try to give people an idea expectations we have. It -- much as you can't we feel like someone isn't sharing. I have anything and role will tell them they really needs you and Ian were relying on backers exercise authors -- permanent -- -- the things that either supporting. Are not shrink wrapped and ready to ship not sitting in a best buy -- Here's a person -- to make them. And a process is part of the user experience now when he used -- -- -- -- sometimes it is disastrous. Disastrous own now you're talking my language coming to disaster. Well I think that -- the creative integrated processes is rarely Linear one. I -- it -- -- all kinds of different directions. On and it's hard to anticipate what's gonna go right and what's -- who homelessness we -- bloody details here -- I -- -- -- bloody deeds elsewhere and I think any case of Apple. I'm you know if you'd imagine -- BI on Easter project. You know artists for years and I've seen how -- -- come together you know you're I don't know we have to change from then collapsed in the plastic screen whenever -- personal. -- processes is is and coordinate part of it. But there's certainly been cases where people have bit off -- in chino and and this actually tends to happen properties that were more like an Apple products and become incredibly over finally it. Maybe someone has is ready to build this thing for 101000 dollars. To do with their -- in a rock somewhere. -- -- half a million dollars. You know you have to -- becomes much different and suddenly you're talking about making things and Asia. And to link things in and the scope of problems becomes. And challenges because much bigger and you know we see people you know people are running our money here -- -- -- -- working hard to be -- but the simple fact. -- that making things is typical and especially making things -- scandal. On and so it's good for backers had that since going into it that hey this thing is not done yet it is. Is in progress. -- and we personally think that's cool it in other people might not be where it that's what they're jumping into. Now out here in Silicon Valley. Kick starter has made quite an impact. Anybody use a lot of these games are being developed as you mentioned earlier for the shall we -- tournaments and games that are working -- kick starter. And I here. Probably more frequently in -- than you would like we're going to launch our company -- -- are gonna launch -- kick start an obvious -- talking up products. Because that's value launch on kick starter but there are thinking this is my company so tell me about. Launching a business. Not just about designing a product the launching a business using kick starter as the platform for that. Yeah you know I don't think they're worried that that can't you now the reason why we -- the project ideas whenever an app. Clear expectations going in about what's gonna be accomplished. -- you know I'm gonna make it now okay cool I can I. Can tell -- now -- time you get that album. Even if the band breaks up I still have that. -- know starting a business -- running a business is something that requires constant maintenance it can't just exists on some push and you know it's hard to tell exactly what the right answer rewards are. Our -- a business. You know might be getting people might wanna offer a discount to the store -- you get early access things like that does things -- thinker are. A little nebulous and harder to pin down -- you know there are ways mean. You know the idea of a -- project is kind of been made up one and is Fuzzy line. And every day we talk about probably twenty projects and right on that Fuzzy line -- try to work through what the best decision isn't our starting point is always yes we want to accept projects wanna find ways to make them work. And there are places where the business stuff out -- grey area where we are more prone to say yes like to truck we tend to like because those are smaller and Racine. More -- to us -- maybe were wrong. I'm but I think taking -- starters -- to come and raised your series today. Op probably not the best idea. I mean that it's a great way to get publicity it's it's surely a great way to make a splash letting people right thinking about it that way. But our focus and our -- really is this this notion of creativity and and being a place where where things are produced that you have a hard time getting it otherwise. -- -- Two to -- to that point. I have seen I think not very many but certainly more -- -- one product or or company get out -- and say we're putting our product upon kick starter. And then that with the subtext being sometimes explicitly stated for publicity. They don't necessarily need to kick -- money but Pixar has become this platform for advertising a new -- Yeah it's interesting -- not I'm not opposed to that -- you know I think that it. -- -- that -- cancer is a way to make a lot of eyeballs and return to year. Not and you and you -- your moment from our perspective as long as people do what they say they're gonna do and they are people I -- exchange that's fine you now we're. We're not here to judge the basis -- you know this person already has announced money or things like that currently we have no interest to gain granular. -- but it's I mean I think it is a good way to. Listen we need to talk about the jobs act. Which is though one of the -- economic stimulus bills on winning its way through our government. It's past the house it's the jumpstart our business startups act. And this is a -- sticky sludge -- legislation -- version of it will probably pass the senate I think on and it makes it does it changes. The accessibility. Of investment dollars too small businesses and makes it possible for -- a mom and pop startup or the ten person start up to solicit. Investment money and to take -- money from. Non accredited investors up to 101000 dollars per year per investor. Com. This is it. Sending ripples through the entrepreneurial economy and wondering what the jobs act that what you think of a job that -- we'll have any impact on kick starter. I am -- it sounds like you know that as much -- more about it. I'm as I do com yes certainly there parts of this -- that are -- very helpful specialty unit change in the notion of what you credit investor has seems like cash and a lot of people are supported for awhile. You know part of this bill. Pearson V product allowing crowd cloning and investments or something along those lines. Arm -- you know that's -- and we had any part out. And you know I'm not sure whether or not -- -- review we sort of bend Washington following the news like anybody else. -- -- to us I think that what's important about -- starter and the reason why it's been able to connect the weight it adds because. I'm -- ideas are fine it's just because people like -- ideas because they want them to exist no one is. Little -- -- -- trying to judge whether -- not be profitable -- be -- good investment. Tina but that's an existing case. That's the space -- created that's that's the rules you putting in your board game is. You're not investing in the business for say your. Investing in the work product and you're getting. One of them one of them or something like that in return. Right when the entrepreneurial economy opens up and has the same people who are abiding buying say attribution to the product I bought a kick starter. Art instead of buying the product are now buying the company. That might change the way people view kick starter and then boom might not people want to say. Sell investments and the company instead of investments in the product for -- and will you allow that. Not only. You know I think it -- it is very different that would be a very different equation and when -- looking -- -- where. The most common pledge announced thirty bucks an average pledge -- seventy dollars you know these are consumer price points and I think it's a consumer experience patient experiences. It's -- people who come to west now. You know we have not. I can't -- -- many if any emails from backers saying hey can I. In some way. Back -- get you know and that's something that I don't think that's exactly what people are coming your form. Com in terms of whether it's or who do this you know we're just where it is waiting to see how this plays out in its. -- tell what the final legislation obedient and you know what terms -- going to be -- so and it's really hard to tell but I think that what is. Important about what we're doing now is that is the lack an investment part because I think it allows a lot more -- opportunity exists. -- what other -- because the bar significantly lower the question isn't you know well this producer returns for me. And from that angle I don't think almost every project objects are to be a -- investment. And said it's just this and that we would like to see this we want to share and being part up. -- and I think it's a fundamentally different question and ask the question really motivates us. That I think has been the disruptive thing. Model but obviously you know and we'll -- maps. Mr. -- and and -- -- in any major business model changes for -- -- Content now not not that I can -- -- you know and us. Come at some point these businesses will be allowed to solicit for investment on non FaceBook Twitter. You name it -- you would you see that as competition for your model. -- it's hard to tell I don't think sound just as seen from you know this thousand -- are you from where we -- I think that. I think that -- things that are. That are motivating a lot of people -- -- starter is just ended the desire to create our you know on if you look at you now see -- observe artist category you know fifty million dollars I don't know that. -- -- -- are -- looking for investors. And the notion -- -- such a simpler one you know there isn't that level of fiduciary accountability. Are you are having set you know cast some Texas oil tycoons second mistress in your lead to get -- checked. You know that you -- think you're having an acre. Not nearly as onerous and -- it's a clean exchanges hey you give you this money you get -- -- new ninth it's committed to Staten and it's more about experience is more about something other. I've been a financial return. And you know maybe word word. You optimistic -- eat or what I feel like that is a really power from the litigator I wanna get some more of the -- -- of earth. I don't know once you humans here. Pop up our desire to create their desire to meet artists eggs that are are being -- I think that's a really course -- I -- you think. You so much. -- -- a stickler is the co-founder of kick starter if you've got a widget or piece of art or film or some music or band or food -- that you wanna put together and you're looking for some funding resources for that. You really owe to yourself to check out kick starter. -- again thanks so much your time. All right thank you. Hey not so that was a great interview with -- -- co-founder of kick starter -- he's calling expecting it from his new Erica office. I'm here today with Jim Newton whose founder of tech shop. Which is a place you can go to get your stuff built actually to build it yourself to be specific threat. Thanks so much are making the time -- thanks for having coming and now I wanna talk about tech shop in about you know where that. The the make it yourself movement is going and what you're doing. With with all the shops -- you're opening up across the country and I guess elsewhere too. Com. The first to continue thread what we're just talking about with the -- Jobs act now we record of that interview a couple of days ago the jobs act out those you don't know is going to change the rules of entrepreneurship in Silicon Valley and elsewhere. On and it's Friday right now and we think next week will be a vote on the senate -- so this is bubbling up as major news let's talk about this briefly mean. This will make -- possible for a of people to raise money from on Twitter. And stuff like that and a to go public more easily what do you think you work with entrepreneurs all the time what it was a drawback mean. -- inventors. Well right now if you're a small company and you're gonna go out try to raise money. You have very strict restrictions on what you can do -- -- -- can -- -- -- based -- -- state by state -- -- California. You can register with the State's. Equivalent of the SEC and you can advertise. Your securities here's your stock offer -- I'm most other states do not allow you to to advertise even if you register with the states and so you're limited to doing a road shows face to face -- you can't. You can't send out an email and say hey come tour you know we're looking for investors and our product when it. So numb them that the provision that is making and it's getting the most press. May not be the most important but isn't getting much press because it sexy is all -- crowd filed patent. -- how diseases that impact the guys you know make an attribute shad or you know whatever the somebody's making a widget that the cliff which we saw on a -- -- interview. Was cut funding mean to you about his first -- -- investment -- it's way way easier to get you know a couple hundred people to kick him you know. Plant 500 bucks in Canada's to get you know wanted to people kick and huge amounts -- money on. Right now there's restrictions on the number of people that you can get to invest in -- company. Through via. Exemptions that that CC provides burden on companies. So this actually is great because you know you -- -- out to your Twitter McKee said and say hey. Now everybody put between -- bucks are trying to get this thing on thumb. I I I think that's great com I mean I put money into -- -- right into Pixar project is this one and I might put money into another one but -- at some point if everybody who has an idea. Sorry throw this stuff up on us in their Twitter fees -- in their -- -- -- -- my project. Thumb. I don't personally I I worry about funding fatigue setting in as I think it's ammunition. -- -- think that actually it happened and I. I don't know how far can go you know. We've only been -- in the sense you know let's kick starter opened. I mean there have been crowd sourced -- finding. I mean that's that's how investment it -- -- -- -- that is -- investment is and to and to it to just that Kennard I just said. We certainly seen that no waning of interest in of the public's. Want to buy stock stock market is a great example -- responded. They don't call of that but that's exactly the when art let's talk about detection up. Now -- -- -- the elevator pitch what what is tech shop and and why should we care. Serves -- tech shop is -- do yourself workshop you joint for a hundred bucks a month you come in and user facility to make anything you can imagine. We've got -- -- put some pictures on here we've got you know. Everything from milling machines and -- its woodworking in textiles selling equipment welding and woodworking and electronics. Laser cutters. Injection. Joined cutter that can cut through six -- of -- anything. Yup just we've got everything you could imagine mountain. That you need to make anything so this is the arm the corner garage -- people I -- people used to go in I guess the fifties and sixties. They would do this. At an auto shop and you you'd have health club model for a shopping you take your -- you park your. Model T that you -- trying to hot rod down there -- And it was not just the place -- a community. How does that work that's that's that's the whole thing protection up to community is what's so important -- you can build your own shop -- -- garage if you got money in Spain Sweden. And you're gonna really want your -- to come over and see -- you're working in and having all these other creative people around all the time tech shop you. Talk -- crowd sourced -- -- your crowd sourcing your idea here across our senior. The intellectual property fear for your idea and -- how much of what's happening -- tech shop is not just people goofing around. And how many people or are building businesses or products that will become distances you know I don't know what the percentages exactly as various buttons. I Def I think the majority of the people there what they aspire to make money from whatever they're working really great because. Who who wouldn't wanna -- be able to make their living from their hobby. You know everybody would love -- -- that there so. If you dig deep in this -- people they'll tell you they're not doing this for commercial purposes but if you dig down and really reach. You'll find out lawn chair they'd love to BOD and what are some of the best projects we've -- come out there. Manage all lists of -- -- there's there's the go to case which is an iPad case that's -- In considered by a lot of other critics to be the best one on the market and the presidents and president carries one around with his iPad and that and -- -- -- get it sent. It and get it for free he bought it on the market and -- look at it him. Oh yeah we -- I've seen those those are beautiful the bamboo book like -- exactly yet others. Server. Server cooling system that was developed by a couple of our guys got license by Emerson. One of the embrace blanket that -- it's a still -- to save the lives of AB's in the Third World and -- Born prematurely -- can't -- -- Regulate their body temperature and -- General Electric distant -- them but appointment -- Us I mean but there's all these other projects now hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of them. -- with that you know over 3500. Active -- members winners in five locations which is the most active location past San Francisco has the most members as a right hand. When they call these. Japanese inventions that are really ridiculous that are cool it a Rube Goldberg like the -- controller that's when it -- -- don't really see that kind of stuff now and news that's left his mark David as -- talk about it and -- I it's it's. You don't get the crazy inventor types that's that's really more of a stereotype. -- Now. As I said at the instruction the show that the landscape for inventors is changing both because of funding models crowd sourcing kick starter for for a because of village shops and -- -- except this one in there there are others. And then there are there tools coming on -- open source and free design tools and then there's 3-D printing. What do you make 3-D printing is that as -- certainly sexy but as big -- deal as it's being touted as it's certainly sexy yet. And a lot of times there's no way that you can practically make this thing -- -- -- now. Especially on a prototype stage -- missile device here on the table in and you could make the case for this. Without spending a 100000 dollars on a tool and die and an injection -- you -- do that in an afternoon so I think from that standpoint three pretty and it's really powerful. But you know some of the press that reprints getting makes it sound like you know okay throw away all the other tools and all the other human. You know implements a three -- all we need from now on and that's certainly not the case. It's also by the way as I understand it the case that you can make things with the 3-D printer that cannot be made any other way and yet and -- printing -- slow it's actually easy to make things. Accidentally that you can't manufacture and that -- -- multiple anti solar idea -- would be millions of dollars to try to do this is so let's say without -- I got an idea I have an idea and something I wanna build it at a workshop a prototype protector protects up this for prototyping really not manufacturers that. You know Patrick with the go to case he he made the first 2000 units -- shoppers aren't you take out of that now we. They don't take now to I think if we took it out of it people would just find another way to do I don't think -- commend. There are models -- models like why commentator and quirky. That that do you. Get into the into that. Space have you thought about expanding -- doing. And an advanced program Mora an offshoot of a quirky likes studio that is attached somehow detection. You know we're always playing with different ideas in. I like the idea of helping. Picking out the most promising technology is that. We see come through our place and helping them get up the next stage a human into projects -- -- technologies. Both. -- -- if if our manager identifies someone -- make consumption and make. Manager thinks that's really got a lot of promise when we might. Approached them and asked them if they need help to get this up to the next -- -- -- from a company. Or get introductions to people again investment is that part of the services -- is -- -- you do have sort of we've we've I would love to do so I mean if -- I have an idea for the boy told him a simple idea for -- -- the show so. Oh and I can prototype that there -- manufacturer few dozen. What's your advice for the inventor verses say ten years ago forum you know the product that I think could be the next. -- -- -- -- -- -- We have a basis on you don't right now it's so easy to reach your audience even with the most obscure little thing and you can reach people through you know all this social networks through eBay through -- -- kick starter. You couldn't do that twenty years ago ten years ago it was simply would've been impossible to find that niche customer. And now you confined to cut a customer base for any thing you can think you know it's that changes everything. There is say yeah am I don't know if this is a kick starter or correctional project but I have a Canon S ninety's. Camera. Which is beautiful camera that may yet made any Morris -- 100 the new model. The problem is -- it's it's flattened -- number one and there -- a guy who was milling out of aircraft aluminum these beautiful -- congress. I don't know how I found that I never would've found that at a camera shop otherwise he probably sold out my guess. In the hundreds and maybe thousands but that's okay now you can DNS and zero -- customers happy or going back to the machine -- to and -- -- and 25 years ago what would you have had to do to get that out in two anyone's hands. But it and a -- photography magazine and an -- in the back may be. And have you know mail order. There's no way it stores are gonna carry it even if they do you can't fill up the pipeline of all stores to get. In distribution -- the -- anyway. Brave new world yet so I want to talk logo about education. We -- -- briefly about community but. And about the whole hot rod -- Is that are we entering into com a new maker. -- a new hardware hacker. Mentality and if so how do people like -- -- Anybody who wants to build this thing I'll learn the skills necessary to conceptualize design manufacture. And eventually sell. An idea without going to you know the late night advertisement inventors will help you get your product through millions of dollars what's the new model. -- -- You know you come to tech shop and you tell our dream consultant -- your ideas we've got a whole staff. Of -- monitoring console and so they're there to help you with the machines. There with the project. And say it's only your ideas and not say hey you know you can use this machinery here you can use this material. Why -- you start with taking in this class on this particular machine and -- -- see what you think and that. And one thing about tech shut everything in the shop is designed you know -- solid and looks scary and the water Jenn -- that -- country and you know. A six by ten foot piece six inches thick whenever you want. That the -- machine insulates they'll look pretty scary but everything without exception in tech shop is designed. For the complete novice to be able to comment. Tikka and our two hours of classes and get on -- machine actually use and that's all included in the membership. The the use of their machines is all included membership classes -- extra okay. Because we've got you know we -- 200 classes a month each location more -- -- so you know. -- -- price from model so that it pays for you to take all those classes -- you don't -- probably take those rare and serious pay for the once the moment. -- -- I have a question from the chat room hear a thing to better consult with a patent attorney to ensure you're not violating any patents. You have is that part of your consulting services as well amendments -- now. Okay so watch out but it it is an issue was not. If you disclose it. You know anywhere you disclose your patent -- -- -- you need to protect yourself so. We've got our -- sometimes Holstein NEA's with other members before they talked -- and let you know it's actually. The most powerful thing about tech -- this just get it out -- and out to market faster than anyone else don't wait. For patent -- issue. In all cases I sometimes it's good but not -- I like that thinking but I wonder if it's realistic considering that patent trolls have out there -- interest. Sitting on ideas that have that are buried in some file -- someone just waiting to be. The -- well. -- they would wanna smackdown new -- -- pop inventor. Until their data and spray and a -- one other thing. I saw that you -- you -- you have like craft as well as. Manufacture and Iceland you know make magazine. -- commitment hasn't yet. -- For the possibilities it opens up your mind they launched another magazine I think -- called craft yet craft was about textiles and is that a parallel culture here I'm just curious -- -- not happened about all. Dale -- -- from make you know would be better to to probably. Explore what the difference is -- -- -- are those two worlds but they certainly blend together detection -- there. For quite seamlessly. You know some people a you know we we often see people come into one side or the other but come into the heart arts -- And not start to explore you know assigned machines for its part of that project and vice -- -- -- -- command. They can adjust -- -- crafting -- and wetter and -- and they take a laser cuts actually take a while in class from the in this whole new world opened. You know I think I should commit -- so I can make my son -- Outfit that -- recorder for Halloween and there. It's all right and I and what's next protection up I mean you've got -- -- -- -- occasionally -- -- locations right now -- opening in trying to open five more this year and we're on track. With. Pretty much. Locked and loaded on three of them out and and what are there though US are they on the US written opinion there's -- yet many in London -- does and we're not -- -- -- -- -- we're there yet works foreign entity and so what -- the locations are now I live in San Francisco sent us a downtown San Francisco. Downtown items -- memo park you know downtown San Jose -- We have one in Raleigh Durham, North Carolina and then -- have one that we just open actually the grand opening is in May. To trade with -- Ford Motor -- -- I like that. -- -- -- open right now it's been open for months customers -- -- isn't it earning better grand openings going to be on. May fifth and one of its Detroit show to people -- is doing in the city it's really cool. Yeah I thought you know talk about -- a community that needs -- resource like this you know what's interesting is is yesterday I was on another show press here. And there was a guy from Volkswagen. RD. And they're moving a whole segment of engineers to Silicon Valley dig into the whole software and -- -- Strange -- blending culture status. Anything else you wanna talk about with -- People should come and take a class and check it out make stuff and hearing from you -- just wanted to point out you're curious about building you're sent a Star Trek outfit antenna on. Wednesday the 21 of march there is a wearable tech and did you even know that I should have planned that and I think I can't keep track of everything our teams and anymore. Please that we take -- -- if I absolutely. Jim Newton is that founder. Yes of detection up congratulations on -- success so far and keep it going let's keep that a hacker making yourself build it yourself ethos going. -- like to -- Nancy was with us earlier on the show as well from a kick starter Steve thanks for producing. We'll back next week with another great episode of reporters' roundtable C --