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Reporters Roundtable 73: Experts not bullish on RIMThis week, we gather three reporters who cover wireless, trying to find the future path for RIM. Does the security of the service make a difference? The new Playbook tablet? A bit, but if there's a clear way out of the woods, we can't see it yet.
Hi everyone welcome to reporters' roundtable -- weekly tech show on a single topic each time. This week we're going to be discussing Research in Motion or rim rim of course was once the darling of the cell phone -- the Smartphone business business boys and business girls. Carry around their blackberries. Like badges of corporate. -- Even president of the United States set the tone and was saying that he never wanted to give up his Blackberry -- people surgical the -- -- Or cell -- -- or something crazy like that anyway for all its personal appeal. Rim became successful by selling blackberries and the support systems of -- to businesses to corporations. Only after the company had a foothold established in business world they didn't start making. Start achieving any kind of success in the consumer world -- selling devices directly to consumers through carriers. But the real Smartphone revolution was like many technological sea change is driven by those consumers and consumers have started to bring the iPhone. Android phones and -- initially the Treo. Into the business world and reams grip on the enterprise that started to slip. Meanwhile it's very robust security architecture is actually landing in trouble with a lot of governments who want backdoor access to the rim infrastructure the technology architecture. So companies trying new things it's revising the aging Blackberry operating system it's releasing its own. New tablet on a new operating system units which -- bought. And it's trying sometimes unsuccessfully to convince the world that the -- system is both. Super secure and government friendly at the same time tough sell. So what is a future grim look like with all these. Crossroads at the company is having to navigate -- were discussing today. With a a large and very experienced. Panel of experts. First sitting to my left in the studio Donald bell who is our tablet reviewer. Thanks for coming in -- Donald had the playbook. And you let it go to high school I know. It and he took -- -- and -- show. So we just reviewed -- -- -- he was up now on cnet.com. Nicole Lee who is our mobile phone Smartphone reviewer. Also here yet to be here and -- reviewed about 5000 different Blackberry models. -- -- they couldn't -- tortured and let. Them have deleted the latest and greatest. But bank if -- Yeah right out and. Joining us from New York for the corporate and business overview Maggie Reardon who covers this industry as well as others for CNET news expert dialing -- And so we're actually -- -- wanna start with you and and you were just at an event remove that last night talking to Jim -- -- the co CEO one of two. Of rim. Tell me about that discussion what's your sense of how rim is is doing right now -- how the leadership feeling about the company. Well yeah it's it's funny because. I've seen him speak number of times I've spoken to on the number of times and you know always upbeat about the prospects for some ways it -- feels -- you know. We -- -- -- this -- company like he's teach you it's happening. I'm so I asked him you is very informal setting is it was party essentially on the playbook in -- -- cornered him and asked him you know. Buoyant about. The Blackberry losing market share in the market you know -- he any guilt and Purcell again an argument with me about whether I was actually losing market share and -- I think it is in the US pressure losing share. It's not number one -- on -- Android is is now the number one Smartphone. -- apps in in the US. And it's quickly -- becoming that overseas as well so. His response pretty much was well you know we've been focusing internationally. And we have. You know. Taken our eye off US market that we're gonna be coming back in and he promised its this was gonna be very busy summer for. I've written in terms of I -- mobile handsets so com had no idea -- what it. -- handsets though they'll be announcing that certainly may need to refresh there. There lineup. Sunnis and I mean it's in all -- -- How does happen I mean it's -- They've got to sit at twice the CEO horsepower to any company out there and how does -- company ME TV you just said there had to market their hit the screen along the -- the -- you're talking about that earlier saying. That. Most of the black perhaps that are -- there are old designs what's going on there how did they managed to not released -- -- and such are fraught. The mobile phone market you know it's very interesting Nike said the whole Smartphone -- acting you know in some way whether you like it or not acting it's kind of started with the iPhone. It could -- meet the touch screen. More usable as some of that is sort of meet the -- -- that being to have if you want even usable consumer friendly. Device -- multimedia -- watching videos but deems especially in the end it came -- after that. And in the Blackberry came I think a year or so after the iPhone with the storm. Because a failure because that they had -- the expected -- No sure -- click press technology when you press the screen there to activate something that just does not what people want out of touch screen phone. And you know and for example and -- admit that there recent focus on the on the playbook it can't let their handsets -- -- I know sit in the incident -- by by the sidelines for a long time that the last phone was like 67 months ago with like the Blackberry style something that's a long time. To go by without a new handset especially eleven -- did you -- -- every belief system. So -- when you're talking to work healthily and was -- he acknowledged that they were being they were slowly and in. In innovation there. Content now and I think to be honest with you I think that is is the crux of the company's problem I think. When he iPhone came out Blackberry sales actually benefited and -- they were selling a lot. And they were selling a lot because people wanted. An iPhone and they wanted to Smartphone. And they can only get it on AT&T so rising and I did pretty good job pushing. Blackberry devices in and you add sprint T-Mobile also trying to get the same thing. And and just as Nicole point -- out -- came out with a touch screen phone but it can really listen to it consumers. The -- give consumers what they wanted. And -- to hold Google comes out with Android and you've got a whole bunch of Android competitors. And the next thing you know I mean they're not getting top billing -- Verizon who is one of their big. You know pushers in terms of this is the -- turn him to the iPhone and so I think it eight -- mistook. Some of those. Those high sales. Quarters as sort of just you know that -- strategy was working when in fact it wasn't working people just. One -- something. Now and and they were air. Now -- now of course as we were as I discussed in the intro. Rim made its business by selling to enterprises to corporations. How is that relationship with the corporate world going and then after we -- -- that we have to get into this whole. -- with government but let's talk about the business relationship first -- your or anybody here in this room how -- Think. -- -- still have that's still the core of their business but. What I think is happening and they really need to be concerned about is. You have a shift in in companies in terms of people bringing their own devices into companies state. You you have a shift -- companies are no longer issuing devices and saying you must use -- I you have a lot of people who. One to -- they want the iPhone and they want -- entry on and they wanna be able to have works stuff on it and now. A lot of companies are saying okay you know why buy this and also it's less expense of -- there is some technology out there. It allows us to secure the devices and so and -- getting a little bit better with that. -- OS is getting better with that so. You know you're kind of seeing that shift because it's being driven by the consumer who was also somebody who works in the business world so. You know I wouldn't say that rim has businesses completely locked up forever and act in. They're quite vulnerable there. I think also the running joke has been for a lot of the technology conferences like CES that everyone has a Blackberry in one pocket and the iPhone and -- -- other. Because. There's still there's still tied down to the Blackberry kind of forcibly because of their their own corporate use. But they want to stay relevant they want and almost as to be involved in technology almost have to have an Android or iPhone -- -- to be up on everything that's going. On the tank unit it is in some companies' interests and not pollute the Blackberry because the Blackberry Enterprise Server. That's that's that's a commitment to make a whole different infrastructure that the impact -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- So it's not an inexpensive. Commitment and if you and you upcoming company known as the -- start -- these days. You know why not -- -- escalates an outlook colors doesn't Google in the Google Gmail asks him. Air rim really is certain is -- yet their bread and butter is Wall Street and government. -- and those guys not -- switch over you. You any -- other platforms anytime soon because ARD have an investment in in I am Blackberry architecture but you know I think that there. I mean that's a business for them on and it's a strong business -- -- You know that's the other thing and that I find really confusing about -- I don't know who they -- envy -- did they wanna serve business customers or do they wanna serve consumers. It keeps saying that they wanna do both and yet they come out with a select enable -- which -- me. You claim -- you know -- they -- -- first of all this is -- -- very telling when you go to an event and they give every single person becomes the event. A device -- so everybody I don't parties. A lot of leg around that'll get him out while Google and Google does that immunity -- the only company that it doesn't have to do it is app and it. So and you have -- -- -- I have a playbook yet evident -- -- -- so let's talk out before I wanna talk about the playbook before we talk about the playbook I wanna talk about something. That is just as much in the news which is the relationship that rim has with. Governments and it is what what the reporter from the BBC or -- Helen Jones talked about the security issue he did this interview which has been all over the -- With the other CEO -- -- -- its and he started to ask him about the security issue in India. And last read -- cut him off and said that's -- national security issue it's unfair this interview is over and basically have the camera turned off Maggie what the heck. What happened there what what it's gonna. Now I reactive -- is to be perfectly honest I feel like. -- in his really gotten a bum rap. In a press and sort of you have been manipulated by a lot of governments outside the US in terms of talking about the security issues and in leaking information it will bring an army. -- in terms it and -- I mean basically a lot of these companies are saying. -- 81 rim to give up. Certain keys. And and allow them. A back door entry into that architecture so that they can monitor communications but that that problem his is the -- -- architecture set up. Is that. Rim doesn't actually. -- those. Those secure keys that's. That's the company you know has the server they have all the security like on site so. You know it's it's sort of a little and -- -- also there's a lot of you know the -- phone and an Android phones also have encryption and security and you know so I hate -- in some ways -- -- rim does have very strong security. But I think that they get beat up upon a little bit harsher and some of these other companies. It beat up and -- -- -- it beat up by -- already be up by governments because they're not there are two issues here as I understand one thing is that. The architecture of the rim platform of the enterprise server platform is such that if you one -- to give you access to. A cut one of their -- customers' data they cannot they don't have the -- The other -- right. -- did because air it. Those companies have this keys mean they wouldn't want rim to have this ease any right -- -- security issue is such. That. It's actually not that the system is insecure -- to secure. There's certain degree yeah and that could mean that's what there are you link that let you know. I inserted. Where I think they're getting a bum rap is I don't think that. I think that there they may be expecting rim to be doing. Something they can't be done. Now the other thing I understood. From when this was an issue with I think -- Saudi Arabia was that there was -- that was leaving. The sovereign nation. Saudi Arabia going to servers. Either in Canada where rim is based or the US or somewhere else or some data farming -- I don't know where. And then going back there to be delivered to users. And although that data was encrypted and and it was still leaving the country was that part of the security issue as well. I have -- it that. Necessarily was -- -- it's more -- -- want to be able to crack the encryption to be able three and to be fair to the US government wants to be able to. I mean. They're not. Yelling and screaming about this but you know. 88 -- encryption and an air able to aid intercept the -- -- don't think it we don't do that. Around every Batman does a little bit back so. Interest things when I went areas of the national insecure in order -- through -- with what's on about and well I -- it because it's this constant I think they feel like they're getting through to battered over the head. And you've got some officials in India it in particular and some other places. That has been leaking the information over the last several months about. You know. Saying that. Rim has agreed to do XYZ and and rain hasn't agreed to -- -- and so you know rim has to buy it one hand sort of playing. A public game with air customers -- I mean. -- enterprise customers want them it's never. The governments are doing what they and you comply with whatever regulations or whatever security measures they have to comply with -- -- in a certain country so. And then there's a lot of things that they can't talk about because it's national security and it's also you know proprietary business. And stuffed it so. Yet I don't know why he had a ballot -- -- immensely. -- I can understand why would -- -- -- with a little extreme now I do wanna talk about the the tablet now and Donald youth youth youth. Had the -- you reviewed the play button. -- First of all briefly care and -- -- -- review and then when you think this means for for the company for rim. My camera view is that it's it's it's a little bit. Late as little too small I think compared a lot of the tablets that are being announced this year that -- in that -- iPad tenants. Screens that I think people aren't you receive -- and that's the fact that strive for even after alliance and tablets. Bomb last year. But it's one of the most powerful. -- that had -- to review and -- the browser on is exceptional -- is a full browser flash enabled date you know. It is -- desktop experience. For -- web browsing on a tablet is what everyone's been better at the better better than safari on an iPad. Well that's flash movement yet better than a flash -- browser on the -- even on the Motorola zoom I found that because he's an Android browser. A lot of the site you're visiting what it will -- sees the Android browser is gonna try to serve -- the mobile version of Amazon workarounds -- -- -- Firefox on Android -- switching you can -- some different. Tinkering to make sure that those certificates are kind of forced to give you -- full versions of web says but there's. There's none of that from the user and on the -- packages it serves up. The web as you would see that and cat with flash animation completely it's not -- look awkward or kind of pop ballads like different flash windows it is it is the web as you experience -- now I understand that the current version doesn't have an email that true. That's true and that there and they're quick to say -- well look we gave you the full. Web on this browsers so sell or shut up you said it could actually. -- -- is like -- is a web based email client guy behind by and a black rim the company that invented secure impossible to get into must enter your -- -- nine times email says you have to use a web clients or email distant distant part at this. -- the silly about yes I said. Why couldn't I think -- you did -- that you guys are on that email he said. Well when he never gonna have viewer your playbook without your Blackberry right next. So what letters -- hello so nice to hear you talk about one of the rationing issues with the playbook which is. And I saw this this other interview this that's the steely interview on the Wall Street Journal or -- -- where they're talking about the co dependency and of the playbook and a Blackberry Smartphone. And he's trying to say that it's on the one had it works great when you have a black we've never -- it also works fine by itself what is the opinion in this room which is it. Is it a standalone device or is it I coming out Afghanistan kind of -- is I'm not a Blackberry. Convert heading August. I do think though that there is something to be said. And this -- actor -- point about security and corporate and government is the fact that way. Rim has been able to do is make it so that you had this program called Blackberry bridge is built into the playbook as an optional app you install on a Blackberry -- that. That basically gives you a view into your email -- contacts calendar task all that stuff. That's on a Blackberry phone you get to see those -- -- in and interact with them compose. Manage that stuff on the playbook. But at the -- -- -- when they're separated. All that's that disappears and none of that information -- data is actually stored locally on the playbook rocket and so this gives rim the advantage to -- able to deploy this tablet. To this existing customer base and -- look. There's no pilot programs necessary can of the play this and on day one and you got to worry about security issues of data being. Kept locally on -- tablets making to speed they're basically these viewing devices for that information. I'm an and the web experience and everything else you do for fun on -- tablet is you know just. On its own. -- -- -- was actually really missing. Exactly and it -- night and you know and I'm sitting there with my boyfriend we're looking at this and I'm like over the leaking -- And you know I don't have I don't own an iPad or any other tablet and later on with one. But there were really no apps that I YT is. Highly sought maybe -- wine. The iPad com then -- watch Netflix or something. You can't watch Netflix there's no I didn't find Netflix app and you can't play Netflix. On the browser. On there. So I was like what do I do witness. So you know and there aren't that many you know and and when I asked that's only about -- He's like well you know people only need a few apps you know so like. IPad has all apps but -- you know so we only have 2700 book -- Yeah and I haven't I think this two interesting things to do you want on that topic what is that and this is getting back to. -- -- at Apple and Google totally stealing the Smartphone market away from -- Is that I mean when man started out this of the Smartphone was the business well -- -- Synonymous that that's what Smartphones where I think the most significant thing that's happened over the last three years is that the Smartphones become the consumer felt oh I it's -- Beatles you don't sell feature phones right now unless you're broke. You know that feature phones -- used to -- would have the money to invest in the Smartphones kind of the logic around reality sets with the -- kind of support for it. So. It's is that magic I have to think that -- from the sidelines kind of -- a little bit when. The smart phone -- if you were coming up and kind of making the smart phone the music phone at the Smartphone. Gobbled up PMP three player gobbled up the you know for the iPod and it gobbled up all the kind of the fun devices -- -- and became. The iPhone four is the the phone you get for doing fun stuff -- Not that smart move that's really -- essential problem -- a very east. Very serious identity crisis right because they want a bead is corporate what you want to be known for -- security business phone infrastructure and with the tablets as well. But if you wanna -- market -- if they want to marketshare they have to -- consumer not -- heartily but not what does this look a couple -- -- -- -- there is caught in a day. You have to really commit to -- the consumer market. Because dissidents say -- it's the consumer phone half of the time. Now -- -- I think they have to listen to what consumers want now when that happened you know in and you know I asked him about. You know -- what would be different in -- new. Handsets amount it's gonna make it sexier and he's like oh lower you know it is processing power is gonna be faster and is -- yeah it's like. But the actual design it sounds like is probably gonna be pretty much the same and I -- when it. People are -- you're telling us at least in the US with their. Wallets is that that's not enough in -- and and they don't seem to really be getting and that I -- -- and it. And I wanna make one other -- to decide -- adults questioned if that way they've they've told us and shown us to some degree. Is that there. They're going to be supporting and great apps on the playbook. At half the thing although they haven't announced that if it's going to be about the future for the playbook and missing the playbook OS is -- -- for their phones but that won't be Symbian might come down the line paying us iphones and second. The. Playbook runs a whole new operating system for rim. For infect the entire mobile industry called Unix which which rim bought Unix is an ancient operating systems Unix based -- -- -- -- -- fundamentally. Different architecture. On the operating systems side then the more monolithic kernels and -- -- operating systems Android. And -- OS so in order to run apps even an emulation then you -- Redevelop them from Dorchester -- -- from scratch I mean how are they gonna get the app market going when it got this whole new OS. I mean this that that they've they've. This -- with us that we haven't we can say under -- are under Margo but it they have said that there Android apps will be available. Through the Blackberry app world marketplace who and that would developers have to do is -- active submit them -- that you didn't digital signature and it has signed verify the apps. And then the -- exist and apps store and it is still on the developers to submit their apps. But. That's one way that think that they're looking strategically to -- -- -- point a lot of that content -- out there. Develop for Android and -- bring it on to this Blackberry in general this is their version of boot camp. And acknowledge and the existence of a more -- of a more. Market leading. Platform. While not saying. Say that it is a little bit a vote of no confidence but their own infrastructures for their own physics existing. App world App Store thing. It seems as if they're saying well we don't have to be don't have the numbers -- -- to -- -- Android movement to get the number of -- that people want. It's a little but it disconcerting. But is any else might be really smart -- doesn't -- -- markets Japan. -- Let's see what else let's now. The current version of the current playbook is Wi-Fi only as a curtain so there will be a forgy version coming -- -- to have a more tight integration right yes and that they're saying that the -- model on sprint that's coming out later this year. Will have the full. Although all the support for the them. Blackberry apps that the I'd mention -- they were only available for bridge -- that you will have music -- Allen and lot of those other. Now that terabyte -- its group and second negative cavernous schooling me hear Omnia are architectural difference in the operating system saying. First of all that Android -- just -- -- -- should run more easily on an any operating system. And they can will be able to run native. In in a more lightweight emulator -- just think they make -- sorry go ahead. What you know. That's another thing -- it confused about with this strategy from rim and a playbook is on it you know Wi-Fi only and when things bet that that's silly -- Highlighting last night. Our conversation was well you know if you have year Blackberry which tune you can essentially an area and use that to get. Three G access and you hot and port. Because I don't know why he thinks you don't have to pay. We're okay well because every -- -- didn't he say other that. A lot of Smartphones that -- Smartphones and analysts that you get the -- fatal accident but -- And he -- -- -- they're not quite a tethering fee. But why -- because they -- -- they know if you're tethering bed. It just start chart actually expand it to -- they said that because of the unique like system that black praises for -- IDs. Essentially of the playbook adopts your blackberries -- And it's it is isn't really. Al you can't tell so it's it's not -- now it on the net. It you know I mean if you -- I guess. If your carrier. With neck and upset you it -- yeah yeah well not -- if you're about each charge for. -- Europe Verizon and you're about to lose your -- a corporate base to iPhone users on eighteenth here's something I don't know. I actually I had I have to say it -- -- -- it might -- here that the idea of a a tethered device where you -- don't have to pay extra and that the carrier. -- My suite of phone plus tablet as one device for the purpose of Billington I think is great and I think that will make me like that carrier whole lot more than any other carrier that's currently out there. Out that the safe metallic perspective. And so many people and upset that all the big tablets have been coming out from. From the -- and -- -- have to Motorola assume they've all come out initially as as three G only. Thank you have to get them on a care plan that the Wi-Fi versions have been kind of artificially delayed they're really put the push behind higher priced. Three G contract strapped. Versions of the tablets and no one pal signal on that very few people have been buying them -- the been balking at the -- had to sign a new contract for new data plan to -- also. -- -- -- -- You don't have to sign in a data plan you can turn it on on and off when you -- And -- still get the access. Project is it let people. Now -- -- flexibility but the other thing is when it comes when the playbook becomes forgy. There's gonna be no three G support so only when you're in a place where they have WiMax which isn't very many places you'll be able to use and -- -- -- -- deal to me. But you'll be -- but you'll be able to tether through your Smartphone. As -- have a Blackberry -- but it gets in line -- black out the the core business. -- rim is still. Phones and services to run phones and as we were talking -- the -- -- -- show wanna get back to right now let's talk about how rim is doing in the the phone business and -- call high rate this company compared to. Apple HTC Samsung how how is rim doing. Hear. From and panicked consumers prospective. On their phones are just not very exciting and make their OS is a little bit bland user interfaces. It just seems. Old compact all of the all of its delayed its Samsung Salinas HTC. In the latest iPhone even. You know and I feel. What they they have mentioned my exit and make resident is that mentioned that they're hoping to port the QX platform over phones. In 2012. When they have more dual core processors -- it's available and to me 812 really that's like a year away and the full market moves so stoically Eaton who -- that the phone you planning on now -- -- out of date. Into neat well what what happens. To developers who in all that I mean. We we might fetch about you know that limited Android marketplace but there are still -- -- neglect remarkably but there are still a fair number of Blackberry -- -- we're -- -- what happens those apps when they changed to a completely new operating system. Well -- -- from what I understand it can expect from does support Blackberry apps because the out of me imminent and written in Java so -- -- should be easily pride over -- Although Dennis -- another issue though a lot of the Blackberry apps. That the more business -- into it wants and we tend to be a little bit more expensive. About. And it's 850 dollars which is little more expensive than the typical Android app for sale and let's say I've studied many biblical pricing. -- it in the future. But you know. -- I think I think I think Apple should be -- Florida -- Are they are they doing much with their OS now forgive me for being -- a -- here when when it comes to. When it comes to the Blackberry system but the Blackberry that our corporation gave me is is that -- what does this -- -- -- -- -- Or what -- it with a horrible track -- -- -- an operating system that is right out of 1985. And is the -- are the current products when it comes to the user experience -- -- state of the art or are -- more like -- here. There a lot of those phones still around entry level phones -- -- a lot of those still definitely the -- that that the price of a happy it is of their latest. Effort on this of his -- with the tasking and a QWERTY keyboard of the credit keyboard I have to sit down lot of Blackberry and that it won't give up -- -- keep let it be love that. Tactile -- being typing feel and it does not willing to give up a -- and I guess. And noted that those customers that political party -- back very cute whatever the content -- the only problem is that. Rim is trying to compete more tasking phones for example like you -- -- -- a new spot Bosnia but -- summer. I would say a majority of those new phones will have screens. So they're trying again trying game -- half of -- testing ground meat and mocking me differently -- But mighty my worry is that you'll stick with this although less beats no kind of clunky can and we are looking. On the W for the -- are -- So. -- -- -- -- I still also feel like. There is -- there yeah I mean it's. Then there's a big problem with this Blackberry or rims perception to like to -- -- the -- earlier that when they were in their heyday. -- see a Blackberry phone and what it meant was. That I am hard -- about business. And I and -- It confers on me being seen with this thing that I am -- an executive and business savvy that important happened calendar -- to access any -- contact. Constantly and that that perception has now changed -- want to have. BP have that up perception conferred on -- because of the phone you're carrying the -- is not the Blackberry and is thinking want to carry around -- want to have all that. That interesting stuff being thought about you because of the phone you carry. If not Blackberry iPhone and Android and I I think that there's no recapturing that. That magic of that -- program ranked near -- Just say I I've been writing this column -- You know several months since last summer ends. You know I always get questions. From people asking me you know should write -- which Android phone should I am dead horse I get an Android phone -- I found. I never hear people asking. If it she get a Blackberry and you know it's I think that's EO it's anecdotal I think it's -- telling an it people. They'd only be considerate is an option which is. Says a lot -- accompany the use number one. Artwork we're gonna have to -- appear in an -- -- I want to ask now see it may be that the consumers have fallen out of love with the Blackberry. But businesses. I mean I T departments I think still like it governments and -- still the the what what rim does as important important enough to want to get access to that data or to you know. Give their co CEOs of -- such a hard time with their national security clearances and various countries that they get all freaked out when -- asked about this question. What is the future. First of all -- for you in four. For rim win in dealing with governments and in dealing with big business what the next twelve months look like. Well I think that they're still gonna be hitting hard internationally and -- need you because I think apps where they're gonna have to grow. On -- and I think that here in the US. Businesses are not as in love with. Brin as you might ink and I think that there is an opportunity. On you've got particularly a lot of people if the CEO level who would rather have an iPhone. So that's a problem for them on because if it's the box says he wants an iPhone. And -- and again I. And in. And in government. And in government you know -- government is is a tough -- there -- in entrenched in that market but I'd even practice and government agencies that sort of they're not advertising -- -- you know they've gone out bots might ads on their own reduce certain things com. So I ink. You know they're vulnerable they are -- I think government moves a little bit slower and probably has it's it's harder to crack that market -- You know they'll probably still do a decent business there and I'm sure they're still gonna do decent business in a lot -- enterprise market especially some of the big banks and stuff but. I think that there's a lot of opportunity for other players and -- even mention micro. I mean you know. You've got windows phone seven -- and in this hook up with Nokia and I think it -- a lot of things that Catholic and certainly any enterprise. You know Microsoft's his. Everybody has Microsoft on their computer work so. It's a concerted -- -- and in a little bit better then. You know eight -- And they're vulnerable on the business side by Microsoft's new. Windows phone seven and possibly even. Webos but we don't know about the idea that those products currently on chip I mean the -- the palm with -- but. And whenever. You don't paint a very compelling picture of rims future there Maggie. Well done you know -- what they have going for them is a very large install base and you know. -- -- still got a lot of revenue from that so. I think that they still has. At least one or two chances to get it right let you know they're they're kind of running out and nine lines here so you know this summer and it would be really helpful for them to have. A compelling product unfortunately. I thought the -- was and -- act and it really wasn't in China now part of that was just that the the OS still wasn't. That greed or ended -- variants the touch screen experience. But also it was on the only carrier that they needed available to it was AT&T which RD -- -- -- And -- and Nicole the next twelve months sounds like you'll be an exciting time on the handset device different when it comes to rinse products the Blackberry devices. It is that accurate data is that -- -- how much is next twelve months matter. -- -- I think -- matters a great deal just because there's all his buzz about the next iPhone of their latest Android. Or -- they're gonna be better bigger and better dual core processors as the big the next big thing in Android world. I have but haven't had anything of that caliber coming to man I have heard of more testing for those of more. Of -- the same marketing clear example that we've seen before but -- Faster speeds perhaps. But definitely not on the theme ski -- as note the latest galaxy S -- the latest available for example. You know there's there's no busses that -- -- really do believe the rim needs few completely overhaul. They're operating system maybe maybe make it -- Unix like or something -- that it -- let's be clear our our. Is rim going to release connects Smartphones. Or do we know -- might let it as an -- -- promised it yet you know last year. And he promised. It would be you'll be out in -- twelfth. But again that's a long time to know from now end Darren knows Pacific blue print that I know what I know of moving so it could -- -- any topic between thirteen and I don't really know exactly what there. Plans are for its Unix level phone and you don't maybe he will be a great device that we can expect from -- -- right Donald with the playbook so. Maybe you would translate well to the bottom line is -- -- whether it tries it out if it's such a smaller screen if it's Thursday. But did -- need to overhaul the operating system OS six is just. Not yet -- experiences aero is like the that I feel we want to go. I mean everybody says that you know that's why people want to get an iPhone or Android -- -- -- I love getting the email on my eight Blackberry by. Customers are losing -- and a -- to go with. The -- -- party noted that the virtual testing but we're also we're also still talking a lot about consumers I think that way we. May be rim just has to admit to themselves is that they're not gonna be -- maker of consumer Smartphones. You know anymore and maybe not to chase after that'd be good I mean I remember people who have it. Who have died trying to chase after Apple and how cool moment -- entertain people it's it it -- Nokia. -- eight there's if there's a graveyard of companies have been trying to have try to -- not only. The home market is -- it's not purely a business market because every every business customer. Is also -- consumer and and -- his Arnie targeting crossed and not in enough places. Is in the business community where. People are bringing their phones to work in and -- -- greeting him into their work lives -- it's coming more from home. Into the workplace then from the -- shutting your hand it is so added that's the problem and I think that's where the identity crisis for rim comes from they don't know who. They really know fundamentally at heart it businesses. Is where. They are. But they know it -- appeal to consumers. That they're gonna lose even more business on enterprise side so. It's sorted this -- -- -- I don't think that they know exactly what's new and age. Sorted skirted a -- -- I think ever since the iPhone came out it's like I just don't get like. You know how when -- the iPhone was out in 2007. Right I mean that's a long time like get your act together I just don't really get it. My iPhone -- -- 2007 the iPad came -- more recently and now and rim has followed the iPad with a -- the iPhone with. A bunch of other phones and -- trying again and they filed iPad with the playbook the next twelve months and in this is -- we're gonna have to wrap up here but the next twelve months was a look like for. The -- tablet the playbook. I think it's -- -- adoption with existing Blackberry -- -- I don't think with all the tablets coming out this here. That it's going to be the thing that really breaks a competitor. Open for for a competing at the iPad it's not gonna do it now. But it seems like Matt and I have. Device Saturday evening Donald I mean like I've heard a lot of business users complain. Or email like folks at banks say I would love to be able to give -- -- analysts an iPad but. Just the security and some these other things don't work well now I think with our architecture -- best thing I wonder -- -- -- -- -- The besting the the playbook does is that it demonstrates that Blackberry is innovating in OS in its OS and it does have actually it's basically they're saying like look we're gonna make this Smartphone that can run this software as soon as the technology catches up to be out to be smaller than the Smartphone. For right now we can get inside a tablet and we can show people how great this is this is. Compared to existing Blackberry LS. But right now the best thing we can do -- show you at this larger form factor and we're gonna get there it's as if it is is very embedding that people are gonna be impressed by that and that they have more coming them. Well listen. People -- rim if you're watching this. Prove us all wrong. Please. And I believe it a lot of customers out there who are just waiting for. To love you again -- the with that were we are ever gonna have to stop there are I'm off next -- they'll be no roundtable next week will be back on. The -- the ninth with the new ship new show. Like to -- my guess first Nobel. Thanks work and we find more your stuff you can financing at the -- and -- -- -- playbook review. Apple -- review is on nickel you -- Smartphones on cnet.com yet as well. Dignity and other stuff podcast anything like that which put people to do great -- if you -- -- goofy my sleek everything you say the gadget podcast content check out the -- gadget podcast now ideally -- -- podcast this cellphone -- cool and Maggie -- also writes for CNET news and you've got to interview with both to be coming up. Yeah I I've got that story that's I'm working on right now that hopefully will be up in the next couple of hours -- will get back to work. Thanks for joining us very much -- for dialing from New York. Thank -- for producing. Thanks everyone for watching and we will see you all in two weeks on a portrait by everyone. --