Ep. 54: Getting deep with TivoTivo VP of Product Strategy, Jim Denney, talks about Tivo's strategy to become more than a linear TV recorder; the emerging importance of the "second screen" in the living room; where the heck the DirecTV Tivo is; and more.
-- Hi everyone I'm -- human -- -- welcome to reporters roundtable our weekly podcast on a single tech topic. Hopefully in some depth. Today we -- covering Tivo in particular and set top box market in general and I have only one guest with us today but you're gonna wanna pay close attention because the guest is Jim -- -- that VP of product strategy at Hugo. Jim thanks for coming and they threaten the idea you were at people even -- -- -- for six years yet. Which is a lifetime in the tech industry -- and that he was also worked at content delivery network companies before that and an entertainment and -- marketing and -- Shiite and for oil yes which you do that's Shiite. -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- Entertainment marketing studies SGI tools in the mostly the movie production TV production industry -- you sell the computers that there are. You know that was I I did and installed a computer -- Stephen Spielberg's office onetime itself. And a lot of work -- -- on now we're officially off the rails and we can talk about working with or without school. But today we're gonna talk about you know like -- -- Tivo in in some specifics and then talk about the set -- markets in general because it's it's really interesting things are changing so much even since we last had your CEO Tom Rogers here yet Molly did a -- -- conversations with -- just a few months ago. And before again the -- we have to dive into the specifics and follow up and some of the stuff with talked about in that discussion -- in particular. The DirecTV deal now Tivo in an earlier time there was a product called the direct Hugo. Yes and directly community -- yeah and that. Went away when directly decided to change their strategy when it up and -- -- right. But now we're hearing that's coming back and Rogers said that this year. There would be a DirecTV Tivo again and were running out of year what is going on. So that the work continues on the on the product think just a little bit ago -- is a those. Clarification by DirecTV and Tivo that'll be sometime next year compared no no more. And for the most part by defer to -- DirecTV since it's it's -- via DirecTV product but we're creating it for them. I have to let them give any clarification in their availability -- -- -- here. I don't elitist here and in fact is on on the directly site they stated that'll be sometime next buttons are -- is directly the the north are -- they have a DVR but it's their own they have -- on -- media there. Are right so this would be a a -- version -- DirecTV. Media now where else can you get a a kind of a focus TV -- there was one point there was also a Comcast -- product. Yes that -- -- -- if they're really they're in some markets aren't in Boston specifically okay yeah and and in it and so recently that we've -- in rcn markets which is about seven major markets including Manhattan in Chicago and -- -- Virginia. You can get a earlier this it it was announced last year but then earlier this year they actually started using. It's the exact same horror platform but when you when you call rcn Internet are seeing counseling -- DVR you'll get a Tivo DVR so we've worked with them to. Have all our Tivo features but also integrated there -- -- -- and some other other services in the in this system so is that using the true to a technology it's our custom build. Unlike its its not custom build is actually leveraging a cable card in that in that way in that incarnation it's it's achieved. Using cable card and -- we work specifically with them to do some of the two answers like the unity. Okay -- so it's not too too and a. But. There's even need to know the difference I am not gonna get an eight take years if they get Tivo functionality. And they get VOD. Correct which I cannot do here attempt to come conquer her -- -- subscriber and I get. Tivo functionality with my Tivo -- correct but I can't get a Comcast you know here and get. It it is the -- -- the area deity is the is does the kind of that tipping point there what what is the sticking point there -- come after all these years there -- some -- -- places where -- I gotta get a Tivo. Or I can get. VOD from the company's own cable box but in most places you can't get both. So it it it depends but yes and retail in a regular cable card environment you can't get to -- services unity is just to it service there are several ways around that so in RC and case and suddenly in the some others. Or working with them directly to enable better to -- services specifically their -- services but also smaller to -- services. Just by working directly with the cable operator specifically so we use the the IP channel two to help supplement some -- -- -- communication. We also announced agreement a little bit ago with Cox so. That's kind of an interest in hybrid where in in the arts in case you call rcn you get a DVR when you answer DVR -- get a Tivo DVR date they give it to. On in the agreement with with Cox which which will be coming out says -- next year -- You actually go to -- if you go to best buy and buy a -- -- in retail. When you go to activate it and you're -- -- Cox market. A Cox. Cox and tech willing to become come -- -- help you install it. And you'll also get beauty so it's it's a hybrid of the retail product and a retail product with access to their two way that to a services I'm rolling -- -- here have -- -- a buying a TV product at a store in having happened. Truck -- to activate it. That is so it I think that that -- right now when you buy a Tivo you can either do intense in the region -- you -- -- install any get a cable card or attack comes and and -- -- -- -- and you know it really depends in your predisposition. The hopefully I think except for scheduling it shouldn't be shouldn't be a big deal in India. Can we drill into the cable card issues for the better because I I I'm I'm. In covering this tech industry for a long time you've been in it forever right almost as long as I have been -- and and when the idea of cable card was floated its chemical finally I'll be able to go into this story a best buy companies -- whatever -- the time. By a television middle have a slot -- get the cable card somehow from the cable company plug it in all the sudden I'll I'll get my cable through it and that was also supposed to be a great thing for the DVR business it because instead of having to have this you know IR blaster -- -- he would just have. A box that was right your cable box but -- We're still after all this time we're we're. And I have a cable card might he -- your Tivo -- right. It's it's not there what what happened with cable card I think the at I think the Newton the definition -- not there it is it's that there's a spectrum that in terms of. Filling the. The purpose that it was supposed to fill in the first place being able allow you to get at least Linear services -- -- services on other devices it did -- that. On it in that you have a Tivo HD at home you get your HD channels through it. I think -- a couple of different things one in terms of broad industry adoption. In the TV space the only feature was eliminating your cable set top box which ultimately cable set top box isn't that much of a big deal right -- many people don't mind having a -- but. So in Canada Tivo you know the value proposition of the women in set top box beauty and didn't doesn't really -- -- knew that going and -- For -- cable card fills in a different purpose. We were one of the few word you can argue one of the only that actually -- cable card and then. Built around it right so our purpose was amusing cable card to get the Linear channel so you -- -- DVR need to record things you want but then building -- IP services around it so four years ago we started working with Amazon -- -- Amazon -- Doing their own apps around around. The Tivo in -- things like Netflix now there. IP content sources via podcasts etc. into it and building around it but not having that -- the only value proposition. So I think from it in terms of being able -- build a compelling experience around I think we've succeeded in that. You also get in the operational issue rights and the operational issue that's the hassle in it a hassle and -- excellent. Call -- get -- my cable operator. And cable operators have a lot of technicians you know rolling out the education of cable card has -- and the simplest thing. Some have done a really good job some done a relatively poured out. But it over that over time. That port out of of educating that are their staff in just -- hundred deal with that you know what -- was the complications or non complications. Even down to wonderment what a price and so if you call any given operator -- opening of the region -- -- -- widely different pricing actually -- to a year or two ago that was the case. I think it's been normalized for the most are now. The experience is the -- must -- still have the very able I've had as you can not imagine that had several cable cards installed in my house. And have done self installs itself and those experiences vary from one time Muslims marked on house. That it kind of -- -- the works and -- Cable that's hearings -- sell something Korea -- that yet bill hadn't haven't done -- -- hadn't Letterman. I came -- it worked right it's done it was really literally no one no problems for me whatsoever and then you'll never find that installer again and then you know then I had -- dollar came in India barely knew at a -- Cable operator staff William providing it training etc. And down to the point where are our customer service if you buy Tivo. And you have any trouble in -- with installation. Will actually get on the phone with you with the cable operator and help -- helped coordinate. Been stolen action and everybody knows that there -- post. Account so it's I think it's provided it's both provided out by a mechanism through it she can entry treated DVR and build a compelling product around it. But they're certainly been operational was operationally Jesus -- and so we wanna talk more about this and about how Tivo is playing into the whole television market and we're gonna do that after we -- quick break. We'll be right back after -- more questions -- containing -- -- Hollywood and practically inviting you to join us for the 2010 edition of cnet's holiday help desk that happens every Monday at 1 PM Pacific 4 PM eastern starting November 22. It's where we make you look like a brilliant tech gift -- as we take your live calls and we feel your emails and -- Send us an email right now to holiday helped us at cnet.com and along with the rest of cnet's editors will point you to the right product at the right right. Holiday help desk Mondays at 1 PM Pacific time starting November 22 at cnet.com slash -- So that's -- picture went yeah. -- brightness all right so I've been a Tivo users since 1999 it -- and we were talking -- and it -- joining us from Eva. I go and I -- here's one I -- Hugh max -- remember that I did a terrible product you apparently see the duct -- between that the DVR side and via Tivo but at that the Toshiba. That connects poor human brand branded DVR recorder. -- -- -- And now I have a Tivo HD I've been through the generations of Hugo and I've been watching the people business go along. -- -- -- -- can't take the broader historical perspective for this this next little part of our discussion and and I let me frame it this way. And -- but that's what happens. I -- the product launch in 1999 it was a revolutionary concept there were other competing products like replete TV and people just dominated the -- wiped at the competing products. And then. The Tivo market has its its only it's kept alive. But it hasn't really taken off the way we all all the fuel -- want it to their reportedly right now about. One and a half million Tivo subscribers have might find them Herbert Tito stand -- -- members Tuesday over two plus million pills that okay. So. You DirecTV and other another Alexis late the -- wonder am -- a yes legacy aren't so there there -- about people using -- there are over two million budget total address bull market. Fourteen though before it is hundreds of millions if not billions. What happened why -- -- people still at this low percentage of total address -- market. I think it's I think -- you you have to -- to frame the market a couple of analysts -- the hundreds of millions is really if you look at global local distribution because we haven't focused on global. An international distribution really to any extent until this last year. So in the last year we've announced agreements with -- virgin median UK mean. With Ono and Spain and their mother international deals so I think through for a while you have to get the work and we're focusing on the US domestic market and not on the international market. We're now folks and international deployment. Deployment. On in the US market I think -- -- a couple different things right so the the departure -- breaking time with that with -- the in a couple of other operators certainly had an impact on that right it's hard. I European understand what -- you're competing against. -- -- -- just distribute to DVR. You -- good or bad experience but like you call all of my cable operators convenient DVR you'll get whatever they whatever that are where that whenever you're gonna get -- -- why is that not your product in the cable companies DVR is very they function and they work -- -- the but there. And they don't have the user experience of the pure keep. Yes it completely so and vocalist generic DVR -- right they record TV units at the experiences have gotten better but some. Are still kind of archaic. Some of give have him come up to a a reasonable experience but still not what we what we strive for. And certainly not with the integration of media that we've been -- working on. So I think that's matter distribution and it's a matter of in which we -- we're working. Contracting both with a renewed deal with that DirecTV and with the what do we do with Comcast with the people that were doing work with like rcn suddenly in other other US operators of idiocy more of that as time goes on using the operate US operator and say yeah as a a channel to get the -- technology onto the field. On the -- -- to stand on Sunday standalone business in particular. -- never really envisioned the stand on this is being. A the -- it was never gonna be. The the purpose of the standalone business is to have a it. Eight crucible of animation if you will -- -- -- that we can basically do whatever we think makes TD better. It is the first time place that we integrated brought and brightest the first place we did apps it's the first day in place we did integrated search and discovery -- Any gives you it gives you mechanism to to continue to innovate. -- and -- from that he fully control. But the -- -- -- for hanging in their I think we -- in recent history we've seen Google. Do basically the same thing the crews will -- was there there Nexus One Android phone right. Yet the volume there power behind the Android platform is every other phone not the Google print -- yes yet and and so. I understand what you're saying about you've gotta get out there -- incensed compete with General Instrument scientific Atlanta who are the set top -- right now right yeah it. And and the in it it's it it's anything mixed up world right so in. Some of these this -- -- some of the international. Operators we are delivering the Tivo experience on. Cisco -- a that's a product but on their hardware. So I think you'll see a mix and match going forward where you have -- software running on -- from platforms. You know we announcement in a little bit ago on that -- a non set top box agreement with. With best buy to work with them on their insignia connected TVs as long to bring that up tells how that's going we we her her about that there earlier this. Couple -- I think. That tells what that product is when we're gonna see you know that's an -- -- -- I have to defer to them they're very offensive about their product details but it blows it -- -- that we're working with them on net connected TD. So -- we're we're working to have -- a -- to provide via a compelling. Connected TV experience on and indignities. Now since you bring the idea of the connected to you we have to talk about the big news -- connected -- the -- that wasn't around when we have the Rodgers interview. Which is who -- TV right of the AppleTV is a very interest in platform unlike. A pure DVR it it's actually not its controls the DVR and it brings the Internet and the television right. But how do you see that. That philosophy that concept playing in the in the world where most people are accustomed to having a DVR or set top -- how does Google TV fit into that -- the world but let's first I think it's and think it's a bit of a hybrid right and they -- it only does it only -- -- one DVR right now it integrates the Echostar of the fish DVR. I -- that it's it doesn't it and it's not integrated with other with the there DVR. On and there are elements. Of -- TV that I think we leave for sport integrating content into one experience we've been doing -- for four years right we continue to do that. On integrated search -- Google of course does a a very broad search we we do believe in the general -- via. But you wanna sit down for your TV you wanna do you think about something you wanna watch gonna find it and -- watch it that's it and how do you make that is simplest possible. We think that actually do we do a better job of that in the context that integrating -- your TV. So -- your TV and the on the Google but from is done through. Control of the set top box and it's good as they've they've done a they've done a fine job -- we take all the and we put it into one experience. So I think that there are there are elements of of go the people that -- I I both complement Mon and and and feel like we've done some of those for a while and we will continue to two. And things look forward to you know figuring out ways that we work with Google to integrate certain elements into and he'll platforms going forward. But I think it's that the key for us is the the approach -- is we want all your all your experience and want to right so that the missing element there is really a compelling. VoIP and -- -- TV as well as DVR you know all integrated into one experience -- gonna continue to pursue. Well let's talk now about the big trend. The -- people are talking about at least here in in tech circles which is they -- cutting the cord. -- We pay a lot of money for a cable subscriptions and one of the great -- to leverage that is with the -- you can watch whatever you want went right right. But we're also now lot of people looking at. In my lot of people mean mean particular fashion at there's one -- At. At bypassing cable and getting -- content over the Internet through Amazon Netflix Hulu. Whatever bank where does he built into that world it's primarily a Linear -- -- how does that fit into the idea of in the world pending court but -- I would say it's a you know -- and a DVR generally has about Linear recording I wouldn't say -- is this it really is only about when you're recording right it's about media it's -- media consumption media discovery. And enjoying watching TV. So I think that there -- there a couple different aspects of that one for people who are looking to. To use over the air. -- is -- is really the and one of the few products are only product out there where you can you can -- company TSE antenna. If you it is long give access to -- they signal you get -- -- broadcast channels that way they're actually quite nice right -- he broadcasters. Pretty high quality. You can get all your Linear channels and then you can still in great you know Netflix Amazon accelerate and of that and of that experience. So it it if you are looking to if you're looking to completely eliminate a PTV bill on that's a path to that we provide a path to that. At the same time. That the trend of putting that you have to look at the trend of putting the court is the -- -- -- in -- real certainly in tech circles and in early adopters I think it is. I think the there's a debate as as -- article a couple articles this morning actually. About whether some of the loss on the PT besides. And some pay TV operators like DirecTV are actually adding subscribers. On the cable side. And there's a -- of are you they aren't are any of the losses coming -- really because the economy are they people that are are trying to technologically cut the cord. I think that -- yet. We'll see over time out -- -- -- know exactly what that that shapes up. But at I think PTV offers a simple way to get a lot of different things right and in -- in greats. A lot of different channels and it integrates. -- -- from content sources certainly. When we work with a -- -- operator we look to expand that and spend that experience he. -- than the typical operator it approach but. It it is. In the current economy mean you have to be realistic mean if you go subscription month month this gentleman by -- which is not insubstantial especially when you're looking at people are cutting the -- and getting everything mic and -- -- If you do the -- method look at yet immediately to the Apple we're -- -- -- compared to what I'm paying. For my cable subscription if I -- if I were able to get all the shows I wanted to. Ala cart and -- for just those shows I would be paying about -- -- I think it depends on what your consumption -- is right so if you if you look at. And let's use a simple and you know one or two dollars and Leo one or two dollars a show I think you have to look a year at your individual consumption. If you if you do that math that one or two dollars a show you watch take ten shows a week which isn't that much the average the average home. Watches. -- what was it's something like six to eight hours of TV a day. So that when you do that math is actually you know you're looking at a -- -- 300 dollars. Two. To pay for your your typical TDs trip and you can argue. Maybe not gonna watch much TV but I don't know that the -- really it really works out. It but it does if you -- your your TV watching then the percentage of people it does if you look at alternatives and a few you know you and ready -- -- Then fantastic I guess what I'm asking is -- -- is there any sensitivity to the pricing factor. Of the Tivo subscription. Trying to help. People reduced the amount of money that the spending on content. I think it -- we look at it so in terms of pricing we we look depressingly experiment with pricing almost constantly runs it with -- different people. The different people respond to provide economic and ever go get a new one and I'll get a better deal hematoma to have -- -- that. -- left -- so we've we've that we've looked at you know pricing and we we -- with pricing anywhere from you know right now it's 299 for the bucks and company that month. To you know free for the box and different subscription -- -- -- we last -- -- with a a cross section of combinations of box prices and and the subscription prices on. I think in general though we're we're we focus on getting value on your TV so let's look at this net and a PTV and pay TV environment. How -- eat -- it at the the discovery tools the ability -- watch what you want when you wanna watch it. The ability yet extra information -- -- it's not getting more value out of the building -- thing. And if you're looking to cut that -- are you looking to eliminate that bill then it's a matter of integrating these multiple sources again in a way that makes TV compelling right it makes it easy to use. Makes it makes it fun. I think they -- bottom line is weird Tivo in general isn't going to compete on the it we're not and we don't intend to be the lowest cost for button right. What a wanna -- is the best experienced provider. And -- -- that's had an already the most expensive and looking at different -- the channels but but Ian did and we're about providing a compelling TVX. Let's talk a little bit about mobile and let me frame it this way. In Molly's interview with Rodgers one of the things that came up with the idea the second screen right and before you and I sat down here your. PR people were saying you. -- really we really want to talk authority of the second screen. And my fault you though on this is why are you pushing this concept so hard when you don't have a second screen product what he is -- an announcement you wanna make. -- now there are that's. No I think second -- we I think it's just a statement of we see second screen. Being important going going for the president here and here's -- there is there a couple different a couple of things one you have a proliferation of different devices in the home run from phone you know Smartphone -- Tablets. You view definitely and -- -- long term trend radio that a long term trend of people multitasking while watching TV yet and it I think that very much depends on what you're watching right when you watch a movie that's probably not happening. When you're watching shows made it happens maybe it doesn't mean watching sports you know on more predispose to do this. And we think that that's a trend that's not gonna go away. So utilizing. Tablets -- phones to. Enhance the TV experience thinker is going to be important. So I think we're just acknowledging that yet that that's an important trend that we're we're definitely going to -- be taking advantage of as time goes -- What do let us know about that can we I mean I know the Tivo has recently. Enhanced its online portal so that you can do. -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- You can take all your season passes for -- on to a new 10 related to that we -- -- the term can you might migrate your lifetime description from one to the other hand has always a question isn't. There are -- there are different programs that we do periodically. Or people who -- left hand lifetime amnesty programs it yeah yes. Encouragement. About loyalty program IC IS -- people if they want if -- -- -- had to make sure they hit that timing and get I think he you can you can always call and ask what the what the current program for for you know that migrations it's an update coming up. It it -- that the mobile I think -- the key is. It you mentioned the season pass an enhancement meat done mobile scheduling for quite a long time we've. A mobile site that allows you to go and schedule and -- have access to your recordings so I think that the key is. Different device. Different -- menus differently to -- actually interact with T. And that we see that we Citron content let's talk about a little quirk of advertising and -- -- -- one of the great. The reasons that people love you know of course is because you can look over the commercials right you can -- there's even a 32 half. That I don't I'm people do actually and I had it in the in the current in the premier now 32 skip as -- second scan is the standard great. Protest. It's a big it's a very positive feature of the -- one of the weird things about online video right now that you watch it over the top -- over the web. Is that you can't skip the commercials anymore just -- -- down from available to rent what effect does that change have an advertising as a relates to people. You -- need the effective of online not allowing me to yes commercials. Let you know I don't think it has it a ton except in in things is like when we announced. A little -- I don't mean to us support who plus a will be rolling out two plus and they'll they'll have their own rules about their content right so if you if they won't allow you to skip commercials with and that that's the way that will be. I don't think it has a huge effect on. Tivo kind of -- DVR -- Right that that's about when you're cheating I think in general though we believe that -- let's face it advertising pays for a lot of TV now. And so we entry do we put a significant amount of effort into. What's an appropriate way to advertise in DVR department. In a way that yet and -- that that is still very consumer friendly all or any advertising and we -- and Tivo is opt in so you can. In other words you'd have to eat you can see an -- like a line at the bottom and their Tivo central. But you don't have to go into right and you're not forced to sit through if you don't want news if you don't want it don't explorer don't -- explorer. So we we continue to look for ways to advertising appropriately in a DVR environment. Because ultimately content providers content owners. Need to be able to you know have have -- and paid for. It's gonna become an -- it's gonna happen in hybrid of of ways are our advertising paid subscription things on this are we going to see a similar type of function where if you fast forward too far in a show when you get the app for reasons like you do one -- Lutheran. I certainly wouldn't I wouldn't say that -- I would be close to announcing something -- Aren't so talk about premier briefly from new product a new platform for Tivo very exciting -- Or 910 years of the old and uterus of yours when -- and it took awhile -- -- won't come out there and as Molly has said it still feels like a beta what what's going -- with their. From your development. Well and there's a lot of work any if you think about you've had it's you've had nine years there almost ten years of development experience and to the into the current current platforms and the current experience. -- so. He -- in the in terms of getting it out -- lot of work to be done that was a lot of work done. We decided to roll out the premiere with the new HD experience. It in already get it out you get it out in front of people -- -- we we converted all the major. All the major. Traffic areas into this new HD experience sixteen by nine -- from graphics. Etc. we we didn't convert -- things like some of the season -- management things that you do less often. But it into vast majority the time is spent in the in the new Eli the bottom line is there's lot of work and there's one or be done we've had. Probably. Three or four releases since it's since it's first initial release so we continue to refine it we continue to improve it. And I think that's that's kind of the nature of Tito in general right so we've done or less or less six months or eight months we've done more frequent smaller releases. But Tivo in general -- eat you get updates right we do updates. Depending on platform several times a year. So I think you'll continued deceit that refinement but it gives us say it consists of base to -- -- base to work. Now we talked briefly very briefly touched on earlier the idea of the Tivo -- platform is an app platform right and certainly we've seen over the years applications. Like pandora which is now but they're very cool right. -- -- YouTube app Netflix app -- but. Have you learned from the app. Store the Apple app story Android apps for the concept of the app store. At any lessons therefore keep go to make people made via an open platform or -- -- for developers I think it's our goal is definitely make it more open platform for developers -- we've -- -- -- bush and throughout the right balance between completely open where you know -- -- -- -- you never know you're gonna end up with and something that you know. It can deliver a compelling user experience consistently. So -- part of the premier platform was that for some reason flash so we're using flash for both the the primary experience. And the idea of using flash is -- start to use more. More or open standards to to -- -- Third party apps being developed. So I think you'll see this evolve over time. -- it is not that I would say it's not our mission to. To treat. Yet another standard for apps so what we're doing is looking at looking at standards that exist or -- different tools that exist on the marketplace freely today. To figure out how to integrate apps in -- Tivo environment and had a TV appropriate way. And can you discuss your relationship with content providers and anyway you -- you have you like -- that Netflix who premier. And who plus two plus is coming our testers. -- -- -- -- -- How did do these. Content aggregators are providers just create an -- and you put it on they they put it on -- -- -- you put on keyboards there are the negotiation that happens and and and hasn't worked with -- the major network and eighty C a -- happening iPhone for and I but they also stream directly. Through -- cable box to the Tivo I think this is the interesting thing about the the state of the industry right now so generally our relationship with content providers as we have a relationship with them. On some of those apps we -- in conjunction with them some -- support their app on our platforms. So it it's really a spectrum -- the relationship with a different content providers is really a spectrum. On the one commonality is that. We the the -- -- want to work together to provide a compelling experience around a cross section media so. A bunch of different content sources into -- into the experience. In a way to make sense right in in a way that's easy to use -- went the way that makes it accessible. So for instance in working with Netflix we've integrated Netflix into our in order universal search and a Tivo search so as you search for content. You can see and looking for a given -- him looking for heat I'm looking for something that something recent. You can you can use to -- search and it'll come up and say if available from Netflix or not a real Netflix -- -- or it's on HBO India two weeks or time right now. So the ideas how do you integrate this into something that are one of -- one hurt in general missions as a going to be able -- I'm going to be able to sit down for unity. And just watch something like this at the bottom the bottom line is TV is about entertainment right it's about often about relaxation but it's always -- entertainment. Except for news. And you can argue that -- here for some it's an argument and so that -- is how to treat this how to pick as the compelling compelling fashion. So we will work with each it on the majors will work with an individually. And sometimes will use their applications sometimes will -- will do custom application. Really depends on what we think and what they think will -- will by the best experience. Gonna wrap up. We have spoken it here reporters roundtable with people from Boxee we've talked about. Apple TV talk -- TV talk a lot of these things the market is evolving if you're come back a year from now -- what you think we would be petty thing would be talking about Hugo. So I think you'll -- you be talking more will continue to talk about the the integration multiple content sources into -- into a single experienced. I think when you compared to school and Apple and and even Boxee the -- wrote to for that matter that you know the standalone IP set top box. Our view of it is it is there interest thing and meet we believe that we do many of the things are all the things that many of the standalone IP set up boxes do. But we also combine that with Linear TV which also gives you sports news. And if you're pay TV subscriber it gives you all the you know 200 -- -- the one to 300 channels -- -- -- access to. So I think our conversation is gonna be about getting value out of what you pay for TV in the first place. While still supporting different content models. And and providing a combat a meaningful and meaningful TV experience the bottom line is we're about making TD font -- about we're not. How to make it's that you can sit down your front in front of your TV and get we want. I think he'll let you continue to see that. The combination these different sources is -- is one of the the key differentiator -- that will continue to percent and hopefully the user numbers we'll start. I think -- I -- literature and you'll start to see that happen. Yes our right Jim Denny's VP of product of -- a product strategy at Tivo. Jim thank you very much for coming in really appreciate -- up from thank you -- everyone thank you for listening to reporters roundtable next week -- he continues slightly in this Tran we're going to be discussing. And the current state of the art in the future of display technology. With CNET lab's air Franklin and race and era of display image that's gonna be really -- -- somewhat technical discussion don't miss it. 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