Vista, Windows 7, and more: Tech Culture
Tech Culture: Vista, Windows 7, and more31:42 /
With just two weeks until a key developer conference, Windows watcher Ina Fried answers your questions.
[ music ] ^m00:00:07 >> Alright good afternoon, welcome to Editor's Office Hours. I'm Brian Tong, editor and host here at CNET TV. I am joined today by Ina Fried, senior writer with CNET News and has an excellent kick butt blog called Beyond Binary. And Ina's beat is really almost everything Microsoft that you could think of right now right? >> Pretty much. >> And can you kind of tell them, to all our viewers, some of your experience and what you have covered in the past just so they have an idea of what type of questions they can ask you? >> Sounds good. I've been covering Microsoft for the past 4 years, before that I covered Apple, I covered the HP Compact merger, so I've been watching things for awhile. Apple and Microsoft, pretty good to have covered both with a little bit of a head to head battle going on right now. >> And you got a lot of unique perspectives, just the fact that you did both sides, so ... >> Definitely, I use both at home, I use both all the time, so pretty into what both can do and looking at things as non religiously as possible ... in a battle that becomes pretty religious pretty quickly. >> Yes, without a doubt. Now you guys, if you want to ask any questions - up here in our right hand corner we have a submit box. If you haven't already created an account with CNET dot com, it's just gonna ask you for a user name, a password, and then pop your questions, and we already have a good fat chunk of them right now but we want you to keep em flowing. And really, we'll get things off started. We're talking about what's gonna be happening very soon in the Windows Microsoft world. >> Well one of the things coming up, a really big deal, is the Professional Developer Conference. And ordinarily it's a bunch of geeks that get together and talk about the innards of Windows, but every now and then it happens right at the same time as a cusp of new technologies. So they're gonna be talking about Windows 7, Windows Cloud which is this thing that hasn't been talked about as much, which is this idea of an operating system in the sky so developers can write applications using some of the same tools they use to write Windows programs; but these applications would then live in the cloud. We haven't heard all the details on this, we're gonna really get our first look at it at PDC. Live Mesh which has been up for awhile, gives us a taste of the consumer side of things, but this is gonna be much broader. This is what Ray Ozzy's been working on in his back room for the last little bit along with a few helpers. >> Now also at PDC like you mentioned, the first look or tidbits of Windows 7, and we have a question here. This one comes from JeffWatt41, and the question is - is Windows 7 a new build of the OS or is it like an upgrade to Vista? >> Well the answer is both depending on how you look at it. So Windows 7 is the next major release, much like Vista followed XP. That said, it's not gonna be as big a departure. Microsoft hasn't said a lot about Windows 7 but what they have told us is it's gonna use a lot of the same plumbing as Vista. Vista made a bunch of changes from XP that affected compatibility, all those new popup windows that ask you are you sure you want to do this; a lot of changes and we're not gonna see the same level of changes. It also required new drivers, we're not gonna see that. So in one sense it's gonna be a much less major update from Vista than Vista was from XP. At the same time, hopefully there will be enough in there to really make it a worthwhile update. >> And the whole thing about they kind of went back to keep it simple with making it Windows 7. There's no years, code names, anything like that with the title of the OS. Was there anything behind that when you talked to them about why they decided to just kind of ... you know what, this is Windows 7, we won't have to have all these tricky catchy marketing associated with it? >> It's kind of a strange choice and I did write a blog about it. Even the math, it sounds like oh 7 and it must be the seventh version. Well it's not the seventh version and it's not even version 7 point 0. Windows 7 is gonna be version 6 point 1, and the reason they're doing that is Vista was 6 point 0 and actually some software actually gets messed up if you go to the next version level. And so they actually can preserve some compatibility. The question is, does it really say something about how big an upgrade it is, that it's moving from 6 to 6 point 1 and not to 7 point 0. I think Microsoft says no, don't read too much into it but I think other people will take away a different impression and we'll really again, get to know when they show us at PDC just what Windows 7 is all about. What we know so far is, it's gonna have a multitouch interface, so some of the stuff that really makes the surface cool - a little bit of that, some of the stuff you see on your iPhone, some of that gesture control is gonna come to Windows. So we know that, we know that it's not gonna use two drivers, and the rest of it is really kind of a mystery that we're gonna see at PDC. >> So when you mentioned how they're gonna be bringing multitouch to Windows 7, and is there gonna need to be new hardware? Are they just not gonna be able to talk to the current track pads ... in the software, in the actual Windows OS, will they need something new to be able to use multitouch features in Windows 7? >> Well features in question with the track pad because when they demoed it very briefly at the D conference in May, they were talking more about on screen, touching the screen. And it could take advantage of touch screens that are out there, there's some specially built ones that are really geared towards touch screen now. >> Yeah, HP Smart Touch screen ... >> Yeah, and we hear notebooks are also coming from HP along those lines. And so those machines actually could just take advantage of Windows 7. Obviously if you have a monitor today that's not a touch screen monitor, it's not gonna magically become one. The track pad is really interesting because they haven't explicitly said 'and we're gonna support a set of gestures on the track pad'. There are gestures already supported by track pads. So Synaptics and some of those folks, they have the technology to read some gestures on the track pad and it'll be interesting to see if Windows tries to create its own set of gestures that are track pad read. >> Now you also said that this would also implement potentially some of the things from the surface, and I gotta check out service, obviously it was a long time ago at CES. They had one of those cool tables where you can manipulate and mess around with photos. You obviously are a lot closer to what they've been doing with surface, although are there any things that you can talk about of what you've seen or just the whole surface interface in general? >> Well surface is going in a lot of interesting directions. I mean it starts out, it's this very expensive table top computer that's really being used by hotels and restaurants and casinos. Still really cool technology but not everyone gets to play around with it, no one gets to play around with it for very long. So they're going a couple directions and one is they are trying to take the technologies that they can, and bring them down to the desktop. So at first that's multitouch in Windows 7, they've also said they want something more like the surface in the consumer level but that that's gonna take a couple of years. The other really interesting thing is at the core bleeding edge of the technology, Microsoft researchers are spending a lot of time thinking about, okay it's not just a tabletop, what other kinds of surfaces would be interesting? We wrote about one earlier this year called Sphere, which is kind of like the surface but it's a globe and really interesting, especially for mapping. Not just a globe, which is kind of a natural object. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> But they had a really cool thing where they show a video of, you can kind of move through a video of a downtown Seattle. >> Like in a 3 dimensional realm essentially? >> So it's basically, if you think about those 360 degree panoramas that wrap around you, this is like seeing one of those from the outside and it's really cool stuff and they're really looking at a lot of ... once surfaces become computers, what does it mean? I'll have a story next week where I'm looking at some of the research papers that they're doing in this area. And there's some really interesting stuff. >> And that's on your Beyond Binary blog isn't it? >> Yeah. >> We're gonna plug it as much as we can. [ laughter ] >> Excellent, News dot com slash Beyond Binary. >> There you go. Alright, we do have another question here. The question is from ... we're gonna touch back on Windows 7 a little bit. This question is from DMonster5 and he or she asks, if Windows 7 and Windows Vista are so similar, why would anyone pay extra for 7 if they already have Vista? Couldn't Windows 7 be offered as an automatic update for Vista users? >> Well it's an interesting question and ... it really gets to the heart of who upgrades and why do they upgrade? You know most people get a new version of Windows, the vast majority when they buy a new PC, and so they get whatever the latest is. So that's how most people have gotten Windows Vista. >> And that's the general behavior of the Windows customers, is that what you're saying? >> Right. >> Okay. >> A small subset, more of our viewers and readers, but in general a small subset are actually the folks that go out, buy a copy off the shelf and put it on their old machine. With Vista that was actually an even smaller number because the hardware requirements were so much heavier, that you really needed a new or nearly new machine to run Vista well. The interesting thing with Windows 7 is, it's really designed to run on any machine that can run Vista well, so you're gonna have a much larger pool. Now the second part of that question is, is it worth paying for? And that's really gonna depend on the features which we really don't know. I mean we kind of know what they aren't changing. In order for it to be worth upgrading, they're gonna have to show us some stuff that makes you go - oh wow! >> Yeah. >> Which that was their marketing campaign for Vista, I'm not sure that market research shows that ... >> That reactions is like ... translated over. Jamie Ostrich actually had a question while you were talking that you answered, and Jamie Ostrich asked will Windows 7 have the same system requirements as Windows Vista? >> So they haven't said explicitly, so it's possible that something will slightly change. But in general they're really designing Vista to go ... I'm sorry, they're designing Windows 7 to go on the same machines that are running Vista today. There's a couple of reasons for that. One, they really want to ultimately see businesses move to something other than Windows XP. A lot of businesses are still on XP. I know we use XP here, most of the time when I go into a business they're using XP. And so I think they want as many businesses as possible to move, and they're basically saying you can move to Vista now, you can move to Windows 7. I think they really just want people to move. >> Now we're talking a lot about Vista and we just kind of touched up on the fact that when they were really marketing they wanted people to say oh wow, but it hasn't really happened now. Apple just recently had their keynote about the MacBook release, and they referred to the growth of the Apple platform and one of the reasons they cited was that Windows Vista wasn't as well received or successful and it kind of gave them an open door. Do you have any thoughts on that? You wrote a little bit about that on Beyond Binary. >> Yeah I mean, you know, Vista is certainly Apple's favorite punching bag of late. I think it's been amplified by the fact they spend a lot of marketing and Microsoft while they spend a lot in general in marketing, hasn't really had a response. That said ... it's not just that Vista, how it's received or not, because the real question is when people go to buy a new computer do they ... perhaps if Vista is not doing as well, maybe that makes them more open to buying a Mac but there's a lot of factors that go into - is one really open to switching platforms when they buy a new computer? I think Apple has had a really strong period of time where a lot more people are giving them a chance than would have before. The interesting thing too, is their ability to run Windows I think is a big factor in people buying a Mac. Even though I think only a small subset actually go out and buy parallels, even few buy the actual copy of Windows that they need to run it legitimately. But I think people like having that security. >> Just the fact that you have the option to natively run it is a big deal. It gives it a little more versatility. Okay what we have right now is we do have a video, we've mentioned the Apple keynote and they did announce new MacBooks, even though we're talking about Windows there's always this whole battle between Apple and Microsoft. So what we're gonna do is show you a first look at the MacBooks and then we'll come back, answer more questions, talk about MacBooks - Mac versus PC, and we'll see you guys in a few moments alright? ^m00:11:42 [ music ] ^m00:11:46 >> Hi I'm Michelle Thatcher, senior associate editor for CNET reviews and I'm here today on the Apple campus in Cupertino California where Steve Jobs has just announced a bunch of improvements to the company's MacBook and MacBook Pro lines. Specifically, this guy right here is the new MacBook design made all of aluminum, it's what Steve Jobs called the next generation MacBook and you can see the casing's entirely made out of aluminum instead of black or white plastic like previous versions of the MacBook. We still got the lovely 13 inch display but this one actually is an LED backlit display with an entirely glass screen. Other new features with this will soon include the touchpad which is just one single pad, you can see there's a much larger scrolling area, it's gesture enabled and also made out of glass. And you'll notice there's no button on this touchpad, that's because the touchpad itself is a button; you can just press down on it to click. So there is a big change inside the case as well. Apple has switched to Nvidia's integrated graphics card instead of the Intel integrated graphics for graphics performance. The company claims that this will actually result in 5 times the graphics performance, which I know will be welcome to a lot of budget buyers who like to play casual games but don't necessarily need the full power of the dedicated graphics card. Of course with the new integrated graphics and the LED display, which is supposed to conserve power, you have a neat little feature, such a tiny thing but I really like it. There is a battery life indicator on the outside of the machine now, so you can just look at the side of your machine, press this little button and see exactly how much juice you have left. This aluminum MacBooks with the difference in cost between the MacBook Pro and the previous generation MacBooks, it's base configuration costs 1299 and it's available immediately in Apple stores. I'm Michelle Thatcher for CNET dot com. ^m00:13:35 [ music ] ^m00:13:40 >> Alright so that was a first look at the new MacBooks and Ina, I guess I just want to get to your thoughts on what do you think about some of the new features that they implemented and just the MacBooks overall? >> Well you know, there's a couple of things; one, we did see more gestures coming into the track pad. That's the direction Apple's gone so far, is putting the touch and the track pad and there's various pros and cons. One of the problems with touch screen is you're constantly touching the screen and it gets all dirty and what have you. But the bigger picture is there was rumors that they were gonna really go low end, that they were gonna hit 799 or thereabouts for the notebooks. Microsoft I think anticipated that - they called and they had their anti-Apple spill ... >> Talk about like an Apple tax that's built in or what not right? >> Yeah, and so they were trying to point to other expenses of the Mac, assuming that Mac's were gonna be less expensive. And I think they really dodged a bullet there. Apple historically has not really moved much in price. They've occupied the same bands of the price market forever, and they have a really good market right now and they've grown their market without significantly cutting prices, which means their share of the dollars is actually grown even more than their overall market share. So I think they dodged a bullet in a sense, if Apple had come with a really compelling new notebook and a much lower price, I think it would have changed the dynamics of the Apple versus Microsoft game. That said, that low end of the market's gonna be incredibly competitive, especially in this economy as the market slows if indeed it does slow, you're gonna have even more price competition and so by keeping its product mix there, Apple's market may be one that's slightly less sensitive to the economy. We'll see, expensive purchases are gonna be expensive purchases no matter whether it's Mac or PC. I think we're gonna see some people holding off. >> Yeah, and there's also this trend that we don't know how big of an impact it's made, but for example this trend of the whole new netbook phenomena where it's a super affordable laptop that's around 400 dollars or what not. And I know it's not, we've talked about this in other shows and actually it's one I saw near blog hell, although Amazon dot com is not a barometer of what's happening - the fact that netbooks are ahead of the pack now, they've taken over MacBook's position. I used to be on Amazon and the fact that that trend is starting to show itself online and in other places, who knows how this netbook and the pricing might impact in how it reflects what people are reacting to because of the economy. >> Netbooks are really interesting, it's basically ... Microsoft faces most of its competition at two parts of the market; one is at the high end against Apple where clearly Apple has made games and Microsoft would like to change that. The other interesting area is in the netbooks, and initially when the first one, the first EPC and some of these early ones came out, they were running Linux and it was a real competitive threat. It's less of a competitive threat right now. Most of the best selling ones on Amazon and elsewhere, are actually running Windows XP but they are running Windows XP and it's not clear how Microsoft gets to the next version of its netbook OS, because Windows 7 is based on Vista and Vista doesn't run that well on a netbook. So it is an interesting area, and to the degree that someone does give Linux a chance, I think that's really the first chance Linux has had on the desktop is these netbooks. >> Okay, excellent. This question is going to come from Pat Gamer, and since we are talking about laptops and what not, this question is: I'm looking for a new notebook. Would you recommend waiting for Windows 7 or just grab a Vista machine? >> I mean if you're looking for a new notebook now, I would definitely get a Vista machine. At the earliest, next holiday season if all the stars align. In the software world, all the stars don't align. We'd be talking next holiday season for Windows 7 and it certainly could be early 2010 even without a major delay. So ... given that, if you need a computer, you need a computer. One of the things you might be attuned to is, what are the features that get announced at PDC. So you might, even though you're not waiting for Windows 7, wait until Microsoft says what's gonna be in Windows 7 so that you know what type of laptop might be good to buy. We know a touch screen could be helpful but are there other features? So you will probably leave PDC at the end of the month with a sense of, what hardware do I need to really take advantage of what's coming in Windows 7? >> And they'll typically, when they make these announcements, what is the time table that you've seen from when they showcase the new features, that when the OS is actually going to come out in the consumer's hands? >> It can be a long time. I mean, Microsoft first showed Longhorn as it was codenamed, 2003 I think at PDC? And it didn't ultimately ship until November 2006. So ... it can be a long time. In this case they're not targeting that, but the release cycle is fairly short by Microsoft standards. I mean, they're talking about possibly having it out by the end of next year. That's a year, so that's a fairly short time and I think it reflects what they've said as far as not changing a lot under the hood. But it'll be interesting to see if they can get even a not so major release out in that short of a period of time. >> Okay, we have a lot of Windows 7 questions. That seems to be what's on the top of a lot of people's minds. We have a question from Aomego and Aomega asks, I have not found a reason to move to Vista. Why would I want to move to Windows 7? >> Well it's an interesting question. I think some of what came with Windows Vista is gonna take some time to really reach the level that it makes people want to go out and buy it. It was one of the downsides of the way they chose to build features into Vista, which is a lot of the changes came under the hood. A lot of the changes don't really get taken advantage of till developers develop software that really targets Vista. And that's a chicken and egg thing; no developer's gonna write a Vista only application when Vista's a small part of the market. But as you start to see developers take advantage of the graphics engine that's in Vista, some of the other features, I think it will start to get more compelling whether it's Vista or 7. And I think also they will probably take advantage in the core OS of some of those underlying things. So I would be shocked if some of the Windows 7 shell doesn't take advantage of some of the graphics work that was actually built into Vista. So there may be some more reasons. Multitouch is one of those things you can literally touch it and feel it, so it's a good selling point; I think they'll use that. You know, Windows XP is getting long in the tooth; so as much as people now are all happy with it, from the security perspective there's just architecturally some things that are gonna make it less and less of a good option. Even if Microsoft didn't improve the OS at all, which if they're doing their job they've got a lot of people, they should be able to make Windows 7 a compelling upgrade if not a major one. >> Okay, cool, now we're gonna shift gears a little. Everyone obviously was bombarded with the whole Apple - I'm a PC, I'm a Mac campaign. And then Microsoft finally responded with a little ad campaign of their own, starting with the whole Seinfeld and Bill Gates ads. This question is from DigDug and DigDug asks, what do you think of Microsoft's current ad campaign? So I guess we could talk about maybe the Seinfeld - Bill Gates initial launch. >> Yeah I was scratching my head. I got a lot of messages from people who their first reaction was - what is going on? Microsoft made the case that they needed some sort of an icebreaker and it would get people talking. I guess it got people talking. I'm not sure though how much talking it actually had beyond sort of the tech crowd, and people going what was that all about? >> Yeah, like why is Seinfeld ... when I saw it I had to break it down, normally when you watch an ad the message kind of comes across pretty easy and smoothly. But here I was like okay, first what's going on and then I had to think about it a lot and I said, okay maybe they're at least trying to show that Microsoft has some personality. Like if that's the only thing that they're trying to accomplish, okay I can get it. But the fact that they have to think about like, what's the message here? Okay Seinfeld, yeah he's quirky, he talks about the most mundane things but what else is there to that ad campaign? >> Well I think that is important for Microsoft. I mean, they have basically had their perception of their personality stripped away by those Apple ads for so long, and so if that was what they were trying to accomplish, I think there was an element of that. But very abruptly they move to that next set of ads, and there was no real clear transition between those Seinfeld ads and then their current piece of the campaign which is the 'I'm a PC' ads. >> A lot more effective. >> I think so, to me they're really getting at a response to Apple's campaign and I think they could have started right there. >> Yeah. >> Because it wasn't coming out of the blue, it was such a clear response to Apple, and obviously marketers will tell you there's a risk of identifying your competitor and legitimizing them, but I think Microsoft realized Apple doesn't need Microsoft to legitimize them. There are hundreds and millions in ads and there are huge growth and market share legitimizes themselves. And I think responding head on is really good, I mean they're saying look there's lots of people that use PC's, lots of cool interesting people. The proof will come; can they translate Windows to being cool? Because the first ads just say yeah, there's some cool people that also happen to use Windows. What the ads really have to do in the next phase to be compelling is say, here's what Windows lets you do to be cool. >> How does that actually affect the person that's sitting at home; to actually do something about it? >> There's a guy underwater swimming with the sharks, I know he's not taking his laptop down there but maybe he is using it to do something else. I have no inside knowledge of exactly where they're going but I do know that they are gonna try and shift the ads to more about Windows itself. And I think there they've got a tough battle. >> Okay, well we'll see how that all shakes out. But at least I can say I definitely found the ads entertaining and a great way to respond, and easy to understand and digest right off the bat. >> Definitely and that I'm a PC and I've been turned into a stereotype. He's an actual Microsoft employee, which I thought was really cool. There's a few different Microsoft employees in there. >> Excellent. Alright, this next question is coming from ... I don't know if you know this off the top of your head, this question is from B123456H. Thank you! The question is, will Windows 7 incorporate instant on? Have they said anything about that? >> They haven't said a bunch about that. I mean, there's been more made out of it lately that there's gonna be some magic instant on feature and there may, what I do know is boot time is a huge issue. If you look at the negative perceptions of an operating system, a lot of them tend to boil down to a few things. Is it slow? And that's actually not about megahertz or anything, it's about how long does it take to turn on? How long does it take to open a program? Those things play more into it than what is the core speed that the applications are running? And Windows takes a long time to boot up. And one of the things that Microsoft's also noticed is, the difference between the fastest Windows machine and the average Windows machine is huge because there's all this other stuff that loads at start up. And when that happens, it really slows things down. So already, even before Windows 7, Microsoft is starting to work much more closely with the hardware makers to say - what makes the machine boot up fast and how can we make sure that that's how the machine leaves your factories? So we're gonna see some of that this holiday season with Vista machines that have been re-architected a little to run faster, and then with Windows 7 they said in their Windows 7 blog they have a goal of shipping the machines that have boot up in 15 seconds or less, is what they call a very good time. So that's a goal, we'll see if they hit it. I know they had some ambitious sleep time goals for Vista that didn't necessarily all get met, so ... >> Okay. Now you said you'd be able to take this and help out Jan a little bit but I do want to kind of get this question out because Jaler did ask like before our show even started, so I think we'll take him ... Do you know of any plan to enhance the start run command? I would love to have something like, okay I want to config the firewall then you start run firewall, enter, and ta-da firewall config options. Do you know if they have any plans to enhance the start run command? >> Okay, well first of all I will say this is getting outside my area of expertise. I covered Apple for 4 years, I'm a graphical user interface person no matter which machine, but I do know that there are a lot of things where graphic user interface doesn't make sense; particularly for IT system administrators and so forth. They're trying to configure lots of machines and so the command line has stayed very important to a smaller subset of people, not your average user, and with the last version of Windows server - Windows server 2008 - there was a power shell which was a more powerful scripting language. And I do know that Windows 7 will be built on the same code that's in Windows server 2008, so there's a possibility that we are gonna see some improvements in that area. I really don't know, and again, it's not something I follow closely but it is true that the command line, years after DOS has basically faded away, is still important for a subset of users and on the server side, that was a really big thing - was this new scripting language. >> Okay we have another question from Jamie Ostrich. Do you think Windows Mobile will get a Windows 7 style updates, or what do you think Windows Mobile will be? Do you have any insight on that or information? Because you're in touch with Microsoft a lot. >> Definitely, and Windows Mobile is something we've looked at for a long time and definitely, I think it needs more than to match Windows 7 style. So there is a major upgrade in the works, basically codenamed Windows Mobile 7, probably will get that name as well. But it has been pushed out, we reported according to our sources, and since others have chimed in, that Windows Mobile 7 is much later than expected. Initially phone makers thought they'd have it in their hands by now, so they could come out with devices this year. It could be a year from now before the device makers get it, and then it usually takes them some months to get the phones running it, on the market; so significant delay there. Windows Mobile 7 is designed to catch up in a lot of areas. Microsoft for a long time, had a smaller set of competitors. They were competing against RIM, they were competing against Nokia, and their connection to exchange really got them in the game. They were also taking an operating system that had been around since the iPack and handheld computers and was initially designed to compete with like Palm, and tried to bring it into the phone world. Well now they face a lot more competition. You have Android, obviously the iPhone, so Windows Mobile 7 - they haven't said much about the features but I'd expect lots of new interfaces, not just multitouch like you have on the iPhone, but speech I would expect to be a part of it. I know that the folks at Tell Me, which is a company that Microsoft bought, have been working on a piece of Windows Mobile 7, so I'd expect speech to be part of it and really they've got a lot of work to do there. So it is coming, I don't know what all it will have, but those are some of the things that I would expect to be in there. And it's taking them some time to do it. >> Even with the current state of Windows Mobile, it's funny because a lot of times with phones that have it, I think recently the Touch Diamond and the Samsung Omni. Their goal was kind of to hide the Windows Mobile OS while putting their own interface on top of it, because they wanted to kind of revamp, still use it but have something that's sexier for that whole touchable type touch crowd and what not. >> Well there's two things that go on and one is, they want to give it a sexier feel and the second note is carriers like to put their own imprint on phones. T-Mobile has the My Favs and they like your 5 favorites to show up, so one of the areas that Microsoft has had probably the strongest play is being very carrier friendly and letting their carriers do some of that stuff; so they've definitely enhanced that over the last year. The T-Mobile Shadow I think was the first to really throw another skin on top of Windows Mobile, and there have been a lot since. But the problem is, it doesn't live beyond the skins so as soon as you get in the application you're really back to the Windows Mobile interface. So I find it actually somewhat jarring to go from one separate shell and interface ... >> To all of a sudden ... >> But it got them in the game, it let them do some things. The other issue is the browser. You're actually seeing phones ship this holiday season with Opera Mini as the browser because it offers a more iPhone like browsing experience than the current version of Internet Explorer. One thing you will see on Windows Mobile phones before Windows Mobile 7 is, they are working on a better browser and that'll come out later this year. It's gonna be Internet Explorer 6 for Windows Mobile. So it'll basically bring everything that you could do on IE 6 on the desktop, into Windows Mobile. So flash, which will give them a nice competitive differentiator against both Android and the iPhone. >> Yeah. Okay, excellent. Well you guys, it is 12 p.m. You know what that means; it's time to wrap things up. Ina, thanks so much for coming out. Did you have a good time with us? >> Thanks for this ... I'll be happy to come back! >> Tons of information, great stuff here, and we could go on forever about which side ... if you're looking for a new computer, Mac versus PC, but really today I learned a lot and just folks know not only what Microsoft is doing but some of the cool stuff that will potentially be coming out. So thanks a lot for joining us! Next week, Monday, we'll have Wayne Cunningham here. He knows all the car tech stuff. I could probably learn a lot from him as well. So you guys come on in, it's 11:30 a.m. West Coast time, 2:30 p.m. East Coast time, and we'll see you guys next week on Monday. Thanks for coming out! [ music ]