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Reporters' Roundtable Ep. 84:What Spotify means to the music industryRoot Music CEO J Sider and Evolver.fm's Eliot Van Buskirk join Rafe to discuss how the music industry has changed for performers, and what all the new digital services mean for them.
Everyone welcome to reporters' roundtable -- -- in San Francisco. This -- -- show we talk about a single tech topic each time and I'm trying to make the show topical and so this week we're talking about the music industry because of course. Spot by just launched AKA the iTunes where you've already bought at the entire library. Sort of took The Beatles. What's the big deal that spot by what about other startups and in an interesting services and we're gonna talk today about rhapsody. And -- turntable. Group's chart all the other cool hot. The music industry -- is out there. Napster. Housing industry changing. For consumers. And to keep the show this show a little bit more focused than that which is really brought how to changing for musicians and and that's really interesting guests to get into this topic. -- -- first of all here in the studio I've got -- -- who's the CEO. Of root music. Now if -- not a musician may not -- -- music I did not but I've been talking about with people around here. -- -- Donald bell is a big fan of this this is the company behind it and pages. Which is a you make pages for musicians that they put on FaceBook. By yet basically you before we came along there was -- -- standard simple way to. Represent yourself as a musician on FaceBook and and a professional manner and so we streamline the process and so. You can go to as a musician or music dot com Philip -- and put it up on FaceBook and in a couple minutes. Anyway it's it's a huge site for musicians. It is doing to FaceBook or MySpace that. MySpace -- anyway thank you very much for joining about joining us will be talking more about this obviously is got a lot of experience in dealing with musicians through its popular service. And also joining us via Skype is Eliot van bus Kirk who is the editor of revolver dot dot FM. Which is a a site that covers music services for consumers and musicians. -- thanks very much for joining us. Thanks for admitted its. -- -- and I'm a former CNET guy myself graduates could be back in the building virtually Elliot and I worked together we overlapped at CNET many years ago Elliott has also written for wired and other services and is well known. Voice of intelligence in the music industry thanks again for joining so it. -- -- -- like this thing off by talking about the music industry for musicians now. -- one of the things that's. Important for people to to realize. When the looking at the music industry is that. The whole idea of a music industry is kind of a new idea. Is -- it. -- did he used to be that musicians jest. Did their thing and there was there were no middlemen because there was no recording. Red planet -- it yeah I mean I think. Men now more than ever hear you have the ability to really as a musician. Take your career in here and Hansen and treated as a business and I think. It's it's kind of always been that way were you had an opportunity it's just been really difficult. -- now more more musicians that are. -- realizing their opportunity to get there and I think it takes it takes a lot more to be. Noticed by a and management group -- you know maple or. Somebody that's that's gonna work with you because you you have to show the episode so much more upfront but you can draw a crowd there's a few days anything. So before we talk about -- how old. The industry has changed for musicians and for their fans and consumers let's -- -- by talking about what the change is from. What was the music industry 1015. Years ago that that all the fat cats and in in is sitting in the big towers in Los Angeles and new York and are rebelling against what did the industry look like JR Elliott anyone wanna take -- there. I'll jumped in with one observation about that. When when we get numbers from BR IAA. You know I'm not one of these people that -- reminds them which which you sometimes see happen you know they've got a job to do and it's a tough one. When they come out -- these numbers -- -- since Napster our sales are down X percentage. I take exception would that calculation because. I'm almost always they they're comparing today's music industry to look the height of the CD creator is. And -- users of you know owners of both. Vinyl LPs and cassettes were in the process of replacing everything they -- In addition to the new -- new albums are being bought on CDC -- kind of like a triple stacked. Music market and so that's not a fair place to -- comparison to. And yet that's that's numbered tickets thrown around so I -- you know and answer your question I guess shorter one is. You know fifteen years ago it was. But the the fact that CDs were were kind of it was like that the music mart was on steroids because of the CD. Its the superior format according to lot of people to the previous formats. And it certainly has several advantages and -- people -- snapping those up and so that's not. You know that's lake -- vegetables when when you've been standing on the scale instead of zero -- get out it's not quite -- -- Comparison. Yeah I think it has a lot to do with also the filters and did channels of media. That were. There were very much locked in many in the number of years ago where they can be controlled they were controlled by a few. Major players and so the only way to really get out to. The market the general public was through those. Through those channels. As well as its yes CDs -- were very. Affordable to re purpose in Macon and sell for 1820 dollars and you you had to. If you wanted to have that one hit song or two hit songs and you had to buy the whole CD. And so you could package it around this this broader price that people had to buy to make make. Cash and four musicians. Because CDs may have been an inexpensive to produce in great volume they were not inexpensive to produce -- -- -- Tuesday so if you wanted. And and you have to sell it retail etc. so -- for musicians you have to go through. -- gatekeeper system. And that has changed how. In a nutshell just for the non musicians out there how has the the business -- changed for. -- and up and coming indie band. And have -- -- How they do business differently verses in the CD -- It's I've I've got a good -- to -- first ahead. So my Brothers and -- -- called javelin it's actually my brother and my cousins the other guy in javelin some related to the whole band and I I got to watch there. A sentence you know it would said he considered a cent third point where their sign they've got to booking agent dictator brand -- music and everything. -- and the big moment for them I was surprised. You know it used to be you get signed and that's the moment when like -- my god -- you know we might we might be really gonna make it here. And he said he didn't care when he got -- -- on a couple different very well respected indie labels. And it's meet Dell's now that's so cool -- on thrill jockey and -- on David Burns label. I'm block about is like you know it's being on a label is fine but found that the thing that really. Where we really made it was getting a good booking agent. -- because a lot of the money comes from from touring now and so instead of having a good demo. I think bands need to have. A good show you know and that the people who are gonna invest in the -- -- they wanna see you on stage and I wanna see date that people show up a year and a B you're able to -- -- -- yourself onstage and and sound good in them and not acts pretty easy in a farming works -- in a nutshell yes it's from but only able to -- -- explains some it to me because I I am not -- the music industry expert. But today what is a label what does that mean. -- I've heard them compared to basically a bank. At this point you generally have your songs possibly an even in the final form. -- used to be that that they would help you do that but I think now to get -- you really have to have something that's almost ready to be released. And you have to have. Auntie you know some amount of fans before for they'll consider you men and so a lot of -- -- -- function as a bank to. -- -- the money to make a video to. You don't get yourself are -- certain festivals and and then maybe put polish onto the onto the songs that you've already been crafting so they're not leave the whole step of the way they're they're kind of -- An energy boost towards the end of releasing -- thing and a lot of it is the date they have more money there their bank in a way. Yes and yeah I think that's that's. -- of the sheriff but I also think. At this point is still you know have a lot of value. Where they have where they do have that reach of distribution and marketing that they can bring in and kind of plug you in. I'm seeing a lot of times these days that managers are working. -- are doing deals with with the labels on that level. Enables -- us attendant in a figure it out and -- with. The industry. -- increase sixty deals where. They're kind of doing what a manager. We do as well but I think what -- -- your original question what's the difference between then and now is. Now you can you can basically. Make an album you can get garage band there -- logic pro tools or something on your computer record and -- do a pretty good job and it. And then put it up line instead of having on TV online instead of having -- you -- this their records you can put it online for free and distributed. I'm through the different social channels you can sell it using a number different direct and e-commerce solutions. And and then from there you can you can really grow your fan base with the different tools. At a point you you still need some help as you're gaining more more fans. Two to really. To push it forward and that's when a manager may be a label comes into play I think it's right now we're we're really evolving in. You're seeing that with within and around the labels there shifting in and working with these changes. So I wanna talk about spotted by obviously. Spot by just launched in the US. And a limited. For the public invitation system. This week it's been -- in. Various countries in Europe for a while. Why is modify it's such a big hairy deal everybody's yesterday for us was like spotlight even trumped Google -- -- the news has in his book. JY spot by such a big but I think. Heard the there are few reasons one I think it's just been. Talked about a lot -- and of the past. Year and a half years you'll been talking about -- this is gonna happen -- they're gonna lots in humans aren't it's gonna it's it's gonna happen and so I thankful. Anticipation is one of them -- the most amazing things to get people talking about you know what it is. And and so that's happened for so long -- that now finally got its coming out and it creates it's -- its buzz about everybody wants to know is was all hype everything that. That there are thinking now and so I think that's happening just just around. You know marketing and strategy around around -- launch. But then I think that the main thing that's different from spot by compared to a few others is that they have a free model. -- -- You -- you can listen you can download. It's -- desktop and start listening to music immediately. Where did is have yes it's a three a trial period. The thing yet to start paying five or ten bucks a month the desktop so I think everybody's trying to figure out -- it you know is -- -- can have this big heads up. -- you know as they have that -- Elegantly think -- did an analysis on spot by -- how's it different from other. Infinite jukebox. Services I'm. It's it's prettier -- my opinion and and I had to be a big fan of their design aesthetic. It's sort of close enough to iTunes that you immediately know how to use it if you've used iTunes before and most music fans I think have at this point. It also has a PP architecture. Behind the scenes and it uses an open source codec Ogg Vorbis we're not no other. Big commercial services will will use that. So they're all these cool things that appeal to techies. The developers of spotted by one of them was one of the original BitTorrent -- so they really were coming from this place of like how do we get people to. You know they're they're trying to attract the people they're using BitTorrent instead of the people are buying songs on iTunes and I think that the -- BitTorrent thing is is lake -- that's where a lot of Cyrix music fans are -- have the big libraries. So it's a good strategy but as Jay mentions. The big. The big difference the reason as I put it on Bolivar got FM what I wrote about this the big difference that the big thing that makes modified more than -- -- good looking Swedish cousin. Is the free version and of what they've done now I can talk a little bit about the limits not a lot of people know what they are but I've written about them. And in Europe they've been adding these limits. That I theorize are there to make the service more US friendly and apparently they finally struck the -- ballots so. You can I mean I guess I would say 99% sure that you can listen to any song up to five times in the free version ever. And then that you can listen to ten hours a month. And that -- both of those limits kick in after six months of for the first six months it's a total honeymoon period it's it's this free version of spot a fight exactly as it was in Sweden. You know two years ago. And after six -- these elements kicks Islamist again but there's still so little friction I mean if you're using FaceBook and you see a spot a filing. You can click on it you did a few venues and -- for over six months. You you have a ten hours a month so. If you click on all those links on FaceBook which is what I think both FaceBook and spot of I think it's gonna happen suddenly spot fires like this friction -- way to just experience music on all these other services you know outside its -- -- What what does this mean I mean that all these indie bands who or who are using. -- -- -- -- -- button to kind of send their fans on FaceBook to their shows and to their music what -- spot if I mean to them yeah I. Think I think really it does and an immigrant thing so. And I think this is with this you know the streaming services around from. You know our DO and -- and -- -- a number of others where. Consumers in general are starting to see that hey this is a new way to to share in and interact with music and so. As people are sharing links on on FaceBook then. And that brings more people to the the fan pages where the band page lives where the you know artists can represented so so. You know really it it's just kind of starting to -- to -- -- in that direction but we'll see. Okay so I suppose for the sake of argument that I have a -- -- which is a real stretch but for the State Department suppose I did. And it was -- and I didn't have any labels but I had you know local following and and I put something together on. -- -- -- And they don't want people listen to the music. And may be you know start on spot a -- what I have to go to a label to -- order to do that -- tonight. Interact directly with spot a -- and since modify is a business that takes money. Mike and -- many among its by the -- getting. Chair so. As a musician as a streaming companies just just -- pandora and are streaming your songs. -- -- With with the companies like. Sound exchange that collect those rookies when your -- stream. You you do get paid them at same time. It has to be streamed quite a bit for that to be in Canada meaning -- -- -- you -- so Elliott like Elliott said earlier. It's it is very much as your career your readers very much formed around your live show and merchant. And licensing deals and and and trying to figure out how to make a living -- that it I think. Being on these services these streaming services is it's very important is because. This is where it discoveries happening. For fans it's that you need to be in there as a as a marketing chin on his Discovery Channel. True but the you can you can upload there -- different ways to get on -- services that sometimes it takes a little bit. But but you know. The more you become involved with the business in the business. You have a better -- I'm getting up on these sites where managers and labels might have a better sense of how to do that of course you can -- You know search and view of -- figure it out and in different forms like Elliott has a product they -- Sure I'm so. I talk to Daniel act co founders modify whose CEO. -- -- with him in new York and I asked him that question you know how would do indie bands get on -- modified and at the time. This could have changed at the time he told me. We don't want to deal specifically or directly with indie bands so what would've been needs to do if they want against -- is. Joy and something like I showed music -- the orchard. These -- -- large aggregators that present. Huge bundles of indie music to services -- modified ST one deal for the whole thing. Because they don't wanna be -- I don't think they want to get in the business of dealing directly with indie bands I mean it's it's funny that there's much we talk about this -- mediation with the music industry. It it just doesn't scale for them to deal with every single band in the world on a personal level you know I think that makes sense so if you're -- and -- audience modified -- I -- -- the your pictures and the like that would be my -- Are now there are other. When I called infinite two boxes where you can play whatever you want -- -- paid rhapsody. Mob then Zune pass -- and who are the big players here which of these matter which one have kind of break out features. And then there's then there's the other model which is pandora last attempt to get to the second and -- you wanna -- -- left -- -- there are there are a bunch and the confusing thing is from a fan perspective is that they have almost the same music. Com if you're -- label you make you make a decision you know are we doing and subscription services with the -- -- aren't -- And that has you -- that decision to argue spotted by rhapsody mod all of them from so. I think for a lot of people because it has the same music. And generally the same features for the same price you know its -- is five dollars on a computer ten dollars on mobile and consumer electronics devices. It's an aesthetic decision to a great extent I I like the way. Are -- for instance has a great friend feed if you will where you can see what your friends have been listening to. -- so if you lake. If you're a major Twitter person -- deal might make most sense to you. If you are familiar with iTunes you don't wanna learn some wacky new interface I really like -- -- side. And you know it and there are few key features that you need to look for one being. -- you should definitely have a way to play music when you're not connected to the Internet or without using your Internet connection. I did calculations. Regarding Verizon's new limits you know what whatever carrier gets the iPhone immediately and their unlimited data plans. And go to this tiered pricing thing. And on some of these plans you can only get like half an hour of music -- -- If you do nothing else with your cell -- connection at all. Mom and and so clearly that's not an ideal situation and you don't even wanna be thinking about that limits so. Whichever design appeals to you I would say pick something that has offline playback sometimes they call it cashing. And spot -- -- does 3333. Songs. That you can haven't playlist just on your phone that you don't have to use Wi-Fi or a cellphone connection and -- -- guilt free I mean -- -- gonna enjoy. Listen to music when they're thinking like am -- gonna be able to check my email by the end of the month -- might killing might data plan to know him. What about that now there's another model. Which. Which which is pandora and last -- CBS company. And and that model is you can you tell what you'd like and -- it plays a radio station that. It probably do pretty good job of playing you music -- like helped me discover new music. But it's a fundamentally completely different licensing and payment model why is that today. Yet so the main reason is because it's not on demand so. On on pandora you listen you you but it an artist or and genre that you wanna listen to and then it it plays. The different songs that it come comes through right. With spiked by an idea -- These you can think -- have been that you wanna listen to type it in and you can listen to it immediately allow yeah it's spent -- exactly right. And and so that's the -- that's the the main difference and when -- really started to become very successful. And there are a lot of laws where they they couldn't it is streaming royalties that. The industry used was putting on it to pay. And stay up as a business and so saying hey well that's not -- that's not fair because that's not how traditional radio. Was paying out. Two -- license these licenses and so they ticket to congress and passed the bill which got them a much lower. Rates though. So that's why they've been able to -- -- you've seen different streaming companies. Have difficulty with other of the year's. LE EB you have more on the. Yeah on the irony is that the -- license that pandora must have -- the others qualified for is called. You know a non interactive license and of course the reason that we like these things specifically because there interactive so. I and I find a little irony in in that term but not interactive means. You know you couldn't play an entire album in a row. You can't. Skip more than I think six songs per hour. And all these other rules that make it non interactive which of course is a funny way to describe interactive radio. Then there's as you regularly said you know these services like spot a -- -- in mod. RR substitution all for buying music in other words if you pay this you're not buying music anymore. And it's meant to meant specifically to replace the buying of music now and pandora is not pandora ideally would be used with something like iTunes where's the binds the -- -- I wanna talk about Apple and iTunes and the culture. And the concept of owning music and -- buying a CD. Are just buying an MP3 or for that matter just stealing an MP3 are getting in over BitTorrent or at a downloading whatever for free or for pay whatever. Eight is the culture of owning music owning the bits. That make up the file whether they're on my computer -- whatever not paying a monthly fee is that changing and it's so. What happens Apple iTunes. Yet and I certainly. I think that is changing and has changed quite a bit where. You know I think. -- there's still a lot of people that pride themselves on the big record collections there and I'm you know with the -- that they have but. Not often anymore do you do you see that. And I think that. That's proven with the record stores. That we've seen so so few now I'm where we get a record shop -- by the the disk and the album. And yet we're moving -- it kind of moved into. The download of one track that we wanted to listen to -- and then to BitTorrents. Where people. -- I think are willing to pay her. There -- access to it but they just wanted a very clean. A streaming service in an environment to listen to those things and I think we're. Moving towards that clearly with with the look a number of these companies becoming more relevant or streaming music. But it I think when you look at the younger generations that are coming up now. It's been out I don't think that they have as much of a job to having to on something that -- they're much more about. Who let me get access to this to anything I want anytime I want it moon and if you think about the the price you know that these companies are trying to come in -- Use to pay 1820 dollars for a CD and now you paying half price a month -- For all the songs you wanna listen to so I think. It's just a different way of thinking about owning -- you know getting access. What you want -- younger generation now is becoming more accustomed to paying an ongoing subscription music maintenance fee to have everything they want them to keep and to keep their library of what they like what they don't like it in order yet. Meanwhile Apple has built its business and -- The had put a big guns will step in the middle music industry with you know that the pay for download first protected now not protected what happens -- Apple. -- it'll ask you this what happens to Apple as we move to. Away from an ownership model to a subscription model. I'll tell you what I think Apple is gonna be absolutely fine I'm I was having this discussion about spot if I was someone. You know why doesn't Apple do a subscription service -- I cloud just an external hard drive essentially. -- it does have that mirroring function where you you don't have to -- every file but still it's essentially. Hard drive -- that one magical element. And it occurs to me. It. You know it's modifies the success Apple sells more iphones through some more iPod Touch is all of these services are accessible through -- And who owns the app market Apple does. Not only that I'm base so all the -- -- that the the stuff plays on. And they get money from you know any device that connects to that hardware through the dock connector. And not only that if you are using a free version of spot a fire on an Apple product on on an Apple IO IOS products. And you decide to subscribe they get 30% of that subscription revenue. And that doesn't it doesn't matter whether you -- choose -- -- five -- rhapsody RDO. If you if you. Convert to a paid subscriber through an Apple -- Apple gets 30% of the revenue so in other words -- they've got a 30% margin without even having a product. And you can't really beat that. -- I think two it's important to remember that Apple went in and -- -- -- to supplement. That the different components and devices that they were selling so. It's been reported that in the first. -- the first time period that iTunes is up in that they were at a loss. Wits with selling downloads obviously now you know they're making. Some good some good money there because. -- a very large percentage of the market that that buys downloads. But it I think it's always good to keep in mind that Apple. Made it a smart decision about the market and pick music that that -- it. You know the average person interacts with -- it it's -- thing that connects us off from after. You know eating and sleeping we are kind of connector or listen to music or interact with in some way or another right. And so. I think they may notice that with the market and said cool if we can in -- intertwine this with our different devices and make it super simple for everybody to and -- it from device the device. -- we'll be -- you know to be great. You talk about people connecting over music and on and all the services that we've been talking about have some form of social connector in there. -- -- -- FaceBook. -- -- -- No one of the big new ones which is a totally different model from all these. Is turntable that -- -- -- kind of a snapshot of what turntable that FM is and down. Socially what it is and why why or does it -- why does it matter. -- So turntable data than is a new service -- came out where. You can. You can create basically a room and has five VGAs and you can view and others by -- at the spot is open and basically spin any song it's digitally spin. Any song that you think the room would want to listen to and then the people that have joined that specific frequency -- creative bunch of the programs in use in that rim. As a listener you can vote up or down a song. If you think what did that particularly DJ is playing as good or not. And so it you know. It it has started out where it's fun to do with friends or -- you know inside of a company where it is. Listening to music throughout the workday and and you're kind of in -- with with friends but now what we're seeing is that it's turning into genre. Rooms and so there'll be -- hip hop rumored Oreo going to be very humans more specific. You know bluegrass folk. Room where people that love that type of music in -- These days -- -- DJ is that effort then that can be anybody in there. You know in them and their rim and Ohio. Can can be that -- -- -- it's getting a lot of points that knows that style of music and can put on any song. So it's it's combining. Sort of a social elements the gaming metrics. As well as you know interacting with -- What what does that mean for musicians though I mean does that mean that they now have to buddy up to they find these unknown -- -- and hang out room since then and -- their music I mean it. -- I mean no that it's not it's certainly not there yet we'll we'll see where. Turntable takes it meant and what the but he can do -- that. And and you know it could it could go and in many directions but right now they're powered by media net. Which has has that back catalog of songs that you can pull from so as long as your. As long as you have your music uploaded into -- these different providers online night. -- was talking about today you can get you can people can search for -- music and play it. I just one or two more things on a report ran out of time -- what is happening to radio how important is radio as -- discovery engine -- -- that's. A business engine in in the music industry and by radio I don't mean RDR I mean obviously. Here in your car listening to your radio -- -- radio still matter. It's surprisingly is a 37 billion dollar a year business in America -- now. And I just wrote a story -- revolver. -- doubt how I got I subscribe to a bunch of treated. Emails trade magazine in -- and radio ink which is. If you -- FM radio station you -- radio link. They had it all caps read headline that said it was just all about pandora has their sights on -- we are in so much trouble. And and I saw another study that said four out of five of music fans would rather connect a Smartphone to there. So their car stereo and listen that -- in use FM. And 37 billion dollars a lot of money at -- still has that. The thing that's been interest sting me the most about FM -- -- -- here. Is there's a service called jelly FM I believe it's -- -- FM. And they they essentially turn. Any FM station into something very much like turntable dot FM so. They've got a queue of songs you know -- you vote what we I want this one and -- go -- -- on balance go down. And they did this I think -- -- the for stations -- live by one of five out where you guys are written and in the key demographics. But that at the station wanted. The very first time they use jelly baby -- our audience -- up 100%. Now now they're in Las Vegas they're teamed up with a bunch stations Canada. And this I think I think FM. There's something as turntable FM proves there's still something to that idea of listen to -- music that other people listen to the same time. And so turntable is bringing that approach to the Internet. And likewise. On the Internet approach of having a chat room and having voting in game mechanics that's now migrating to -- And it's very cheap way to send music around you don't have to worry about bandwidth. I think it'll be with us for some time I don't think it'll be 37 billion dollars fighters -- Yeah I I I agree with that it's it's still a big market and I think that's of people. Don't don't realize but but it it still has a lot of lakes through it may have time to figure out hopefully. And that that particular. -- the industry he really understands. The how cultures shifting I mean it's very important to understand the users in the general consumer how they -- -- Get that information does the legal industry are -- double -- in the industry protection. Associations that they are -- they understand the music industry. -- and -- -- -- maybe you're living a more educated on that. -- The thing that I need but I remember -- that would and RA executive by two stories -- meeting with them their funny -- -- And the first -- I'm not gonna name names in this case just because it seems -- -- The -- that guy that I met with from there just kept saying you know these kids these kids and the disdain. That he had for the people that enabled him to have you know half million dollar year salary. Was really amazing to me -- so that's my that's my RI IR a double is bad story. The one minute the -- -- that I kind of Blake in a different way. This is while I was at CNET Hilary Rosen who is ahead of the RI AA and you know at this point people relate practically burning her an effigy. She was so hated deferred for the Napster lawsuits and an all that and she actually oppose the suing of individual's different -- so. She comes to us -- while -- was at CNET and it was me and a bunch of news.com reporters and a few other people from cnet.com. And we're all grilling her for an hour there -- is we're drilling Hillary -- and and just why do you do this why don't do that. And at the end of things she says well now I have a question for you -- on this has some smart people in this room you know what would you do if you were me. And worlds -- -- -- well what would I do. If I was in charge of you know because -- the trade group of of a specific part of the music industry which is the recorded. Music industry to district distribution of recorded material you don't have any part of lives. Or or in any of those other aspects so. It was I just. A lake that you know if you if you try to put yourself in her shoes it's not an easy job. And and I thought it was amusing that all of us were finally -- finally had nothing to say when she went to yes does turn the tables -- Finally. What recommendations. A band its doing okay local -- say -- -- council where they've got some I planes and bar nights doing well and they they. They are thinking maybe this is a clear for us for a little while what today what's the best thing for -- it. Sir so I mean I would say first and foremost. The thing that that I the kind of a number that I set is. Into a year into you can packet club -- -- compact in venue with 250 people from coming to your shows. It doesn't make a lot of sense to try to. To sell year. -- that sell your discs or pager for. What's up hater free if you can get them there well I think that's -- -- rated you can get. If you can't get two and fifty people there for free -- Then you have to figure something out Al Assad anyway yet to figure out something about your your music your -- -- or whatever that is. Because you're you're not gonna its -- -- -- to make a living if you can't he had if you wanna be just a local band and -- you know as a hobby shared. Make make some money selling some some CDs but. When you when you're at the back of the the venue and you know fifty people came you're showing you trying to make them pay ten dollars -- -- -- That prohibits you from getting your music out there that many more people -- same thing online so. Use this social features that are that are on line in and the different channels. Where you you can get your music out there in front of people so people are hearing it and then they're coming -- your show and then once you're getting 200 if you keep -- news show you. As a musician as well as -- band members can actually start to make. A living off of that and that's when you can start to tell touring bands that are coming through your advocacy hey -- -- open for you and bring 250 people. The venues such respect you the advanced -- respect you even start to talk to different booking agents and possibly even management. At that level but that's what people are really looking for and they're not. As far as managers of booking agents. And in and folks are on the industry date they need to see that you have proof that you've made something because you can. Such an affordable price at this at this point. And so that's -- -- the number that I. Put out there and I I really believe strongly in that. That. If you're trying to make a career out of it. It hit that number -- and then at that point you can start to make a living but before that if you work out all the economics. You you'll just be a around around your city playing around kind of as a hobby or 34 years before enough people of -- that -- are making real -- -- -- Go to where to get to services that took them -- chances -- -- to read music dot com and to create a I've been page on FaceBook and today we have over -- of -- 50000 bands. Using it in about thirty million fans that. Interact with the pages on -- -- -- great site great service check it out and and -- also thank you very much to make in the current today from wherever the sun is blasting off -- always. Honest I just tried to fix that. And you work for you right for a Harvard out -- demo where can people see what -- -- to. -- believe offered edit them -- Is a great place to do it I syndicated out to wired and is moto -- -- -- my articles all over the place but if you wanna see all of my music -- coverage it's all money Robert some. Arctic -- thank you so much -- I'm really appreciate it. Thanks -- if it's you again -- thanks to come and in guys thanks everyone for watching reporters' roundtable thank you. A -- -- for producing. We'll back next week with another great show remember this is the only -- doing right now -- -- to the rescue was on hiatus I'm gonna be launching a new -- soon which is gonna be killer. I can't tell you what it is yet and I think -- -- -- buzz out loud on Tuesday that don't miss that. Are right everyone have a great weekend thanks for watching CNET. --