Reporters' Roundtable: Drones, UAVs, & the unmanned war on terror.Spencer Ackerman of Wired's Danger Room blog joins us today to discuss the use of unmanned surveillance aircraft in the raid on the bin Laden compound, and the future of this technology for the Army, the Air Force, and other countries' military forces.
-- and don't. Hi everyone welcome to reporters' roundtable our weekly -- on a single tech topic. The course today the big news -- this -- big news is the successful hunt for and killing of Osama bin Laden the raid the killed in -- of course was a decidedly non tech affair. A -- seal commandos raided the compound subdued the defending force and completed their mission in the old fashioned way in under forty minutes. Now. In this is from a military force -- hours. That has made history through the robot -- the pursuit of goals unmanned aerial vehicles have been used for surveillance and more recently for attacks in Pakistan Afghanistan Libya and elsewhere. No other military as far as we know has put such faith in unmanned vehicles. That they were going to discuss this the use of aerial drones UAVs and you see Davies are you -- with. The main writer of wired danger room Spencer Ackerman and that you don't read this blog at wired dot com slash danger room. You're missing a unique and extremely informative and entertaining voice in the intersection of military. And technology I think I highly recommend reading this blog welcome Spencer very much and thank you for joining us. -- where Adam Spencer is. Dialing in front via Skype via the the previous office in PC is that right. That's are at the political hot bed of all the stuff that we're talking about must be very exciting place to be these days. -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- First of -- before we get into the discussion on what's happening in. The war on terror and elsewhere and techno here and you may -- thought I'd like -- to do little definition of terms. We hear a lot of terms thrown around drones and UAVs are big ones are those the same or is there is a fundamental difference in a drone in the UAV. No those are basically what this the that's basically what we're talking colloquial -- similar. However. The air force really doesn't like the term -- The air force at first the term. -- Are they prefer the term. Are keen for remotely piloted vehicle body as they want -- -- They want to maintain. The impression that they have highly skilled and trained pilots at -- at the controls of these flying vehicle. It's important for the airport. -- -- efforts for its image for itself respect to point out that. You know whenever there is a -- there is a human being -- -- hard drive. But they're also so but so a drone the idea when I think -- I think it's something that's autonomous so what is the level of autonomy for when we think of of the vehicles that are flying. Around right now we're we're not at full autonomy yet -- there -- lots of auger. -- systems that are that are in development. Planes that did it Komondor greater levels of autonomy. In the air forces is looking at new technology that'll. Basically you know had -- algorithms to allow these things to take off and -- Autonomy which which still isn't isn't -- year. Right now we're still in the states where where human -- actually stick. Is working. And then there's the a new acronym the UK have you CAV that's an unmanned combat aerial vehicle right now how many of browser -- -- Our target we -- and that's apparently -- that new development -- -- not. Yet. I mean. And a mirror. We different types you can't we were gonna get to your point. Where they're gonna be long range. Are -- -- So that's -- -- new but we're we're talking about a development that's that's basically -- in the last decade. Okay so let's talk about the news. We got a lot. And you wrote -- and if it was and it's here that scared -- on withdrawing more scared. And you wrote a very interesting post. About the drone proof location where he was that I wouldn't -- hold up causal rather curious that the -- -- location aware we found him. Can you discuss what you mean by that -- and why that was. Yes and our mission at that -- -- somewhat misleading especially. We have some good suggestions that there wasn't sure. What I do what what we really meant by that -- it. If you look at them Apple we're. CIA's world war has been. Focused on taking place it's -- These areas of Pakistan that are basically autonomous. And one by by -- And it -- really centered around. -- have major population areas. By contrast. A bottom line where they got in -- It is is basically -- -- You know -- stone's throw away from their major military academy. And it really doctor corporate capital itself so it's it's under full cover. Of the packets tenured. So you don't. If -- -- and you know fires fires hellfire missile. And it -- you know has the wrong -- -- news. War you know. -- the wrong person is is were walking here at the wrong time. You you recall if it has a great likelihood of article program where it's like. About provide and you know huge political disaster. That it would in a place like what -- you Stan. If that's true what -- bought -- ruled -- and you know when you take it out. The consequences of that in droves it didn't have crashed it -- work -- before -- rocket in Afghanistan. There was one. I needed a war on button that was that was that was recovered by the Iranians -- -- But if you -- would. Harvest was shot down. Why pakistanis who had no idea that -- American girl will be flying over the year. And was recovered. By locals who you know perhaps. -- -- -- cutter rock art director. That's really another huge strategic liability. Oxford United States and so that's really what we -- Why this was not -- -- the decline. -- -- -- just to be doubly clear in this year's what you're we need to say is that. Bin Laden was hiding under the protective electronic or anti aircraft umbrella of the very people who were trying to find. Our -- aircraft out of -- okay that's that's going on nonetheless as were learn -- be coming to understand their. Thank you say there was a drone on -- in effect -- it. The speculation is that the US military -- CA waited for clear nights they could have -- hover -- above it traffic can work it is act. You know -- -- when the you know take a look at the video -- or take a look at the photograph that the White House released as of their deal weren't. Into. The situation were beaten -- of what's going on. While the rate is happening chances are. That's coming -- satellite. Nod to a -- -- on scene. And it's been very very -- recently. I 2009 is when we started seeing pictures of this thing. A -- outline -- in the club of east of Kandahar which looks like I mean you still offer. That's called. Our Q one's sanity and it's believed to be -- of Lockheed Martin's skunk works the first. Of wall still. So distinction you know we didn't -- or and perhaps this is speculation -- but it's a pretty good educated guess that's what. If there was a -- on scene probably there -- it -- that it. Now the issue of course of using a drone a a combat drone to take out a target is one thing but when you're trying to get intelligence. To recover assets from. The compound that's quite another thing so it's our understanding this is -- based on a story you wrote this morning. That. The sum of the electronic data from computers hard drives and thumb drives. Is being used right now for a renewed resurgence in drone attacks -- can talk about that -- Yet so there's something like nearly -- hundred. Sources of information and -- out from. Front of the radeon in -- -- on things like drives hard drives. I paper notebooks that picked up two phone numbers were so -- -- emblems -- recorded what. -- Right -- no. Different agencies that Indian American intelligence community -- furiously combing through those things -- what everybody. I doubt. Al-Qaeda affiliates opt -- that are happening. High level operatives that are here by and it comes is just really conspicuously soon after. The harvesting data rate. -- a drone strike occurs in Pakistan. -- in North Waziristan tribal areas and for the first avenue when nine years. In Yemen is well where US forces are. -- hovering above decline al-Qaeda and unit. Do we have any idea about how many drones are being -- right now. Our own. Little world. -- -- like operational used again war and -- I would say back of the -- gases. In in the world hundreds of interest and and and probably price -- -- -- the -- none of the -- -- that's probably. In what it's it's it's it's. A kind of -- within -- in the military you always want. You know -- war. Artists are intelligence surveillance reconnaissance assets I think you have but they -- -- -- -- trying yeah sure now. You know you drums and is especially in different yielded an as yet tons of different times there's there's some summer you -- -- -- -- -- You know 30000 feet you know like the predator which is you know the iconic one or -- just -- -- 25000 feet of others or use more and watched. But you just are -- for different periods of toggle Mercer -- if you. You know users. Of of of and our pack -- patch of land so -- editor Darryl watts of different things. The drone of -- not all you caps that -- things that fire weapons -- -- people. Yes venture is gonna ask about that the kind of give -- an overview of the catalog of equipment that is being fielded right now from the these that there hand -- -- up to. It planes the size assessment that's like 25000 feet what what -- -- look like from you know the small ones to the big jet powered. No almost fighter -- -- things like that. There that are tightening one's that the army is really big on. Coal -- -- -- have wing spans just a couple. And you can launch them through Apple's current evidence I've always record. You throw it would throw. A model airplane -- And those -- answered -- it. It take images of about stuff that -- under -- basically those things are designed. -- a ground unit can see about next where they can see beyond. A -- society and can have. Information relayed it to their laptops. Of of you know what an -- might be wearing. Just over the horizon. But then you get into -- the larger things like like the predator. -- that bit. The air force. And in the army flaw -- good -- -- more the size of a disaster you know you eat and a small -- are -- you know something like. You know couple new 2530000. Feet stay up there for -- day or so. Those to be or it can not be armed. -- Work we're getting to a point where like. These things are just getting bigger. There are you know seven -- -- in development right now. Did you really do look like you know a Boeing. You know passengers aren't playing that just. Ponds and harms of sensors a video. Of cameras that are that are put on. And in it the goal here is for war -- -- electricity persistent stare. Is the -- your worthless things that. It. Just stay above area for viewing along -- guitars and observe changes in in what the article pattern of lights and you know what what what's going on -- in in a particular location. Over a long period you would want to happen. You know -- -- -- you up here that -- -- could do it and you know the physical. Strain is so great. As well as the cost of you know what happens if you lose an individual -- -- not to mention -- tedium. Yeah exactly. -- -- -- the were actually being in development right now. -- the navy is building intro you won't be ready here differently I think for five years. They can actually take off from an aircraft carrier and on it. That yes it's a visual -- -- that it's becoming top. Which is written acting is going to be -- well. You're you're you're getting Internet. You -- would have still held -- -- already -- -- helicopters. That -- -- need to use is called fighters scouts. That are better -- not autonomous but they are still. There are still -- And we've got and you still spider -- That's coming up call that they -- to -- it just took its first flight. On Tuesday so the next new generation of world mr. you know already you know in the process of getting fielded. The the source version of the creditors and you want is actually no longer production it's all it's all been -- -- -- to the airport's right now it's it's one ended in February so. -- -- -- -- Sequels -- you know that next year the net the next model predators -- The reaper and -- danger. Are now in production -- and noted that the next thing they bought. They they can -- these things like the money -- unicorn. It that's talk a little bit about the phantom ray because that's been in the news this week that that this is the I'm a Boeing project it's a stealth drone it looks like it's straight out of terminator. In its jet powered. All smooth it looks like AB one bomber without any room for -- person and it can talk to us about this particular. Platform and what's important about it. I mean the amazing thing about -- things that -- you've got now. I mean stale spelt capability -- girl aside from the east and which -- there's -- much more platform. Is is is something it -- -- they've -- photographer long term have been able to produce and -- they've got. This thing you know -- -- -- -- of -- in production in addition to -- But it's thought this thing will kill. If nothing is immediately just by looking at chief cross -- and that's that I know it really looks like it looks like -- -- operators in. You know it's got it's got you know -- -- that the pointy. Flat nose. Alluded to sleep -- it you know it's kind of our life. And exactly the kind of flying U shaped structure. They were there were used to -- from firms from stealth aircraft. You know this thing is you know eventually going that. Get up to it -- 40000 feet. And you know. Flight practically lets you sell them aren't so it's you know it. You want is for real hiring -- -- leaders there's no real reason it. Use something like this in a place like Iraq or Afghanistan. Pakistanis and we're you know most of what -- it you know places where you're not going there. Reeling -- be facing an adversary that they could detect you your aircraft. This this is you know something that you would want to incorporate -- -- your your flight patterns were. A more high -- and if you were talking about it -- North Korea. Would be would be you know probably and a typical. Target on offer for personal or likeness and -- You know use. In more ways to do at the -- these -- bill if I'm curious about. -- unmanned -- on crude or everyone called remote piloted vehicles are actually -- I mean you were saying that. In the case of some of the surveillance. Equipment that is you know shoulder launched or or are just thrown into the air that's. A completely controlled in the field in Afghanistan or wherever it is. Yet we know there's also am a command center a bunker or something in Nevada where surveillance drones -- immediately comment turns on and or flown out of how -- these things. -- And from where -- Yet I haven't got a chance to see this at and Nellis Air Force Base but. You know -- you -- you know Ellis. You know its users. You know some creature -- the -- We're. You know air force officers. Are controlling these things remotely. You're getting. Real client. Video. Taken back their drones and I haven't. Physically -- -- patient on so I'm not really shorten console looks like but you know why I gather it's the it's it's a -- -- -- -- joystick. Structured it -- that you're familiar with our I have had the opportunity. ITC. Are the army's Ronald. Operation in Afghanistan. Which which is a more austere and rugged situation you're you're basically in I seriously air conditioned box. A metal box. On an airfield. And and the predators cousin. For the -- -- the warrior air war owl warrior else. Is sending. Information. -- -- two guys in this box -- as a contractor was -- -- warrant officer. Who you know -- you communicate we've -- ground units. And we do other headquarters. Elsewhere on the base basically through UIRC style. IM -- And you can see that video of what the drones over flying -- right fit in there its its its its really quite excited to -- he would. You know that's another. You -- Too big two X. Now has it -- it and get a chance to talk to the pilots are commanders of these craft and and what's left for -- have to fly something that them. Is essentially glorified and model airplane with a military technology on. -- I talked to some of the -- alpha pilot you know they're they're doing this for if I'm. Insider's editor nine hours. Ownership I think it's human -- -- things are going -- is those things and why opt for 24 hours a guitar. So like it's you're pretty boring -- Possibly it got a combat that the -- of of what looks like they are curious piper yeah they're really dedicated. -- Talking a lot about you know staying in. Staying sharp and say you know having -- hands when it within a different commanders and in different units that did -- specific pieces of information from this thing. Wording -- rescinded next. And keeping it you know up where it needs to be -- -- troubleshoot problems. You see you strewn cans of energy drinks. You leader that are around around the small box I imagine it's something similar work for the Air Force's drones. Of their drone operators to -- now. And -- create you know some of them you know talk of them. You seem like it's a video game. I had a conversation with -- -- general wants. He gave media. You know the stern talking to you know if if if guys are thinking about this like a video game. I've been good to your forces doing its job right and you know you're still control it. A really serious piece of equipment. In many cases have -- with a parent or other Indian. You have to stay mentally sharp it has been mental discipline. To appreciate the power -- this thing is you -- even when you're not. Pirating remotely. Updating your frame with the power killing someone the information that you're collecting arm people. Probably. Is going to be sent to someone -- does have. So it's -- at the airport yes. I'm sort of -- talk about the command structure that I mean the power and these pilots in these these vehicles commanded with the -- there are new structure in place in the army in the air force or do they have convinced some kind of new command and control. -- system and checks and balances for the use of these. Airplanes especially the ones there that are. -- I mean these are these -- in -- air -- these are officers. Were flying in. You -- either their existing command structures and the longstanding rules about. About command. Are different here Windsor are -- up that control drones on so that they commit instructors and really an issue in the army. You have you have more -- is basically listed. Our work rules like these things and it is a -- servers or borrow. About how you know. You don't have to be an officer -- -- -- 24 drones then the you know the airport's. We've we've sort of -- it. Different culture. Is is a little bit more. More standard -- who who actually gets it to pilot intro went out there -- issue you know is it is it really such -- a big deal for structural. What about the the idea that in the case of them of the of the armed. Airplanes aircraft we've got a machine out there that has missiles or guns on it and it's different when the person pulling the trigger is. Ten miles or 5000 miles away how do the armed forces deal with this kind of disconnect. From the from from -- actions the going to take in the remote -- of having the power to. To kill somebody. And the potential consequences if they get it wrong to they have less information when they've got their -- and a box vs -- -- actually in the sky with the real pilot up there not a -- -- let me back up. -- me to say real pilot and say a pilot on thing. -- Yeah it's it's intuitively. Different. Having -- pilot actually you know as opposed and -- Our visit to Beijing news reports -- -- Psychologically what what the differences -- opposed. You know being able to see remotely. What you're targeting. You do have a lot of the same. Procedures and capabilities in terms targeting we're still talking about you know laser guided. Weaponry. And -- -- a bit of a hundred different. Perspective on -- you know how clear when you see the targets several flight -- argue it's actually. -- more. -- direct engagement. Because you're you're you're getting you know on screen a clearer picture and then perhaps you would through your your your pilot's console. It's it's a debate it's something -- here they're still sort of working out military. Yours for a long time. -- kind of dis comfort. In the air force with the idea of of remotely piloted vehicles. -- Bob gates the secretary of defense recently gave a speech at the at the air force academy. It gets in which he just said you know if you guys you know -- making it you know after a rocket after understands. They were going to -- -- and her dog fighting. You're probably you know -- in the right. In the right airport at Santa Clara drones yeah draws it draws a really yours -- and under the current airport and yet -- Schwartz I think got a long way towards institutionalizing -- I'm in recognizing that that this really is the future of. Of of American your comment but. So the next one year -- next five years what's -- what to look like in the military for unmanned vehicle. And you -- see -- -- advance. You're going to see. Some -- frames and those of a community development it'll be. You -- optional. How. You -- you have them remotely piloted or. Or are -- solid. In case you you have your decorations weren't wanna use a pilot -- or not. Definitely cost is going to come down. -- on a -- -- you lost me there second so we're talking about unmanned vehicles with a pilot inside. And you'll have your friends where it's optional -- ice ice extent and that would be there'll be quite the metaphysical. Question yet that's what I'm talking about okay -- it yet -- so sorry that's but that's what. Autonomy is going to advance on your and you're not you get to a point no I really want to broach. This question is it really does seem like terminator. Out of binary weapons. That's that's just the data for -- you know a lot about it. But hang on a second because at some point we're going to have. Unmanned vehicles that are having to defend themselves against either manned or unmanned vehicles. To stay alive and then they're going to need some autonomy to defend and possibly -- -- isn't -- a slippery slope. And kind of setting yourself up to be wrong to say that these machines will never have the capability to do -- on attack autonomously. Who probably. But you use you're a long way away from -- conversations -- the military no one wants to develop. A platform that can fire weapon autonomous right. That's a line that they did people not willing across yet. On -- you know what if something goes in -- news. You know -- flying. -- -- is possibly go wrong -- exactly and watch any science fiction you know. You know what what was the name of of -- of the -- robot Robocop. Item one corner there's the military did you know it -- so you you don't want you want something like that. Another really important advance. -- -- that -- on its way on this is a big priority for -- correct the -- he's chief of staff. A long range underwater. They want a drone that in your -- for for hundreds if not thousands of of miles and right now it's -- their proportion. And -- and fuel problem. That's keeping them from doing -- there are some garrisons more. You US news unmanned underwater systems. But there's nothing that could really be capable of -- -- of a real new long range. -- -- for Apple. Undersea travel hub that something that's gonna be on. Speaking of other applications. With the listener questions here on earth be asked even comic on the use of drones at the machine -- -- use and nonmilitary applications. We'll start with that one. I -- you know -- they. Forgetting what at what the airport -- -- -- over -- over the reactor. But you don't drove user. You know at their at their war intelligence. You know this is your stuff that you take. A water. You really amazing video footage -- You can get a lot of you know really amazing sensor data from that so you know it's. Only makes sense that over you know -- You know massive radiological disaster written like in Japan. The teaser you know items choice and you know the -- -- them. In -- -- you know. Speaking of Antarctica and this is -- my little editorial comment why don't we see. Drone helicopters or fixed wing craft being used for traffic reporting that of these error prone and incredibly dangerous -- heavy helicopters. By the simple answer is the -- The FAA. Last year. I started granting licenses. For drones and specific in in certain areas. And right now it -- there's Bonilla a big issue about. Seeking currently -- with air traffic control my in the United States keeping an out of certain flight paths are making sure they don't collide with. We we've manned vehicles. And we're she just seen. So -- areas store tunes start -- room. Might need any. They're police -- Odd jobs -- they're -- police headquarters just got. I drone from Honeywell. For keeping up in in that in -- -- it'll look out on. On. Armed -- I think -- that they were gonna use it down there for that -- Yeah that's something it. Doesn't look -- A conventional plane. You can count for -- from at what looks like a canister and I am. It'll take basically a couple more years of dealing -- the update before -- you're gonna see. Remotely part. Right now you've got you've got drones I want you to being flown over the the southern. And some in some places that -- Quarters -- Border Patrol missions. But right now it's still. Not really for for -- -- velocity. There -- weapons he pays are equipped to -- transit and -- market. -- Wilson we have a couple of questions here that are that are on this topic one very simple one without a paraphrase -- -- it send it sending an unmanned vehicle. Over sovereign territory any legally be different from sending a crewed aircraft -- -- I don't think so. I I'm I'm not really sure -- You're not being -- but I I don't really think there's been. Much of a legal distinction made an art. -- and what about other militaries that are using unmanned equipment there are we the only ones are there others -- what America. No no no where near. The Israelis have really advanced unit capability. Nothing nothing that -- -- stays in the years -- It's our -- and stuff like network a global hawk. Which is here for. I think 36 hours at a time and is only gonna get that's another it's on its way no longer persistent. On surveillance at at higher altitudes. The Israelis and Russians. Now have a deal -- local Russian production. You eighties at the Chinese -- -- did are developing or are you brawn and smaller rooms suites. But -- did the right way to think about these things. Is is is really like any kind of a small arms technology you know over the last. Five years he's been overwhelming proliferation. Of of -- missiles. Drove through the next. Thinking that's coming from. You're going to start seeing. A mark you know what a greater market for growth worldwide and Netscape that created what you know gray -- black market for -- as well. -- there was -- really you fascinating story. I think it won't figure may be a little bit longer. With the Justice Department. Indicted a guy for selling drum parts -- day. And shipping them for about in the Philippines. Well I remember that started I was very interesting and them. There is they'd lose a listener in our chat room right now -- I'm not gonna read his handle here because now I'm worried about him with that by the looking forward to show all week I just built the drone at home and waiting for its first test -- So apparently if your model aviation enthusiasts as I believe your wired editor in chief Chris Anderson is you can build your own squad site. A drone with off the shelf -- part so. Are we we have to assume then doing that basically every military on the planet has at least some remote vehicle capability. Yet I mean this is this is something that you know the overwhelming success. Of drones in the increased centrality of girls. In American military aviation. Is just -- you know bring -- -- and and it encouraged you know every other military relations success since they you know once more. You know an and you wonder that the next complex. That are going to be. You know -- days and you don't need -- you know more advanced. Electronic attack capabilities to try and fly the drones. Tended to scramble -- there -- their control mechanisms. You know that's gonna be into the new tools to defeat these things are if they're not you know maneuverable enough to a pretty air defense sensor. Right now what you not seen. Or are situations where we're drones are being for all in in what military electrical -- -- -- -- basically places with. We did dance here is on there was a drone over over Pakistan pretty about a -- campaign that might be an early example. Including well let's let's close this off with the site by thick and at the show I'd I'd like to ask about. But. About how things could go -- very well very -- forest could a drone get hacked. Or worse go -- -- -- -- -- -- You you don't. Someone could you know we've now seen through -- weeks. The problem of insider threat. Is -- is the military likes to call. You know someone. -- the drones aren't totally networked together. You're you're so you're not seeing you know. Something like that it might happen with someone might develop. A system that can. You know once they find out the kind of software that -- -- run proprietary to the different companies and -- general comics -- creditor. Milwaukee. Other companies -- that you create you some you know conceivable. Sort of sort of you malware or or if you over or -- device. You know you can figure you know removable media. Inserting that that information into an engine into a drug control system. If you know you know someone is able to -- -- off hundreds of thousands of documents you know from from the military secret Internet. It's not -- it's -- it -- -- what's happened. You know you're also going -- -- -- different electronic attack capabilities -- it sort of you know scramble it with that particular -- -- what's in flight. I'm not really sure how it how it -- can the world given the current state of autonomy. If it. You win autonomy advances being. -- -- -- You you could certainly lose control pitcher -- that's happened why it caused the Department of Homeland Security to temporarily ground. They -- drones. In 2000 and interest problems. Were detected. Would -- communications. Equipment up that's that's probably. No more likely than in the world. There and what what happens when it when a drone on respond does it crash itself however until it runs out of gas -- blow itself up on what's what's the political. Are we don't really have a self destruct mechanism that at least not as far as I'm aware -- -- -- -- you know that we don't develop. You have some kind of application where you know if if the -- You know crashes. You can basically crest apartments -- -- it would destruct. Or it would be programmed to do that are right now you're seeing it you know you -- -- -- its flight -- and eventually -- -- crash. Were just runs at a -- in it and it goes down a little weird -- Com what does the future of air combat are we gonna have -- drone dog fights anytime soon. Not any time soon. You know will probably not -- at the stage where. Any. Military interest students in in going after -- Via -- error. Has has enough to be capability that they would that they could do that and I'm also not totally sure what. You do it -- needed. -- -- look like that would that would be doing that's where there are you know these things fire missiles at ground targets we don't really have. You know drugs that are firing and other air targets -- -- Gerry Anderson's you'd eventually. You get drones. Develop it after other Eric. -- But you know again right now you don't really have your printer has maneuverable. As you know -- -- -- -- Nazi war. You you know I. This is this is really a case where the technology might might outpace. Strategy. Right now you could unit could. Depending on what you can find. The -- hovering right and applying you know in it -- -- that to combat air patrol. So many. You -- drones over same time I think right now -- you -- want. -- -- -- -- -- -- -- At a time has probably seen it in intimate in someone like Afghanistan so you know if you would just stands you'll band -- You know over these things you probably shoot down. But would there you -- you you'd be -- -- -- it would be very interesting to see. No overtime if you were accurate and two took place where you draw around -- -- there -- happening but we're we're still in simple easily. I'll just two more things than -- I guess some. If we're going to have drones attacking other drones that that's the only way it could work because eventually. This is on my editorial arriving here in the limiting factor on combat. Aircraft right now is a human in their being -- take the stress of the of the tight turns -- the GeForce. A drones don't have a problem of course is no human inside them so at some point will have drone aircraft that are far more. Maneuverable. What we've then crewed aircraft. Yet and you just got one and I wouldn't call Kruger. Crude including fi RE WED. I watched. It yet crude crude -- not GR UD. Eventually you're gonna get to a point where. -- and yet. Much smaller and archer -- you'll be able to to to do those sorts of you know complex maneuvers. We we the human -- I wonder you'll get to the point where. Where they can really do them -- autonomously. I -- you could take allotted. Trial and error. On the other hand. Did you know one of one of the advantages of use of these aircraft. Is it you know you lose then -- -- -- expensive piece of equipment you're -- something that you don't cost a couple million dollars -- -- -- And tens of millions of dollars of flight training. And so I'll arguments and -- you would any human being yet for fortune -- -- now finally last thing here. If people are interested in going getting into this field should they go and take pilot training and don't the military that way or spent a lot of time on flight simulator -- -- what is the the appropriate mindset. In order to work on it remotely piloted vehicles -- -- fact. It totally gaining that's -- -- ports has been really clear doubt one of the reasons why they are -- There are younger and have been so capable of taking these things really quickly. You know. Video gaming really does preparing for the real world that -- you know you. You -- you -- joined the military you know it's it's not like you're gonna go into you know anytime soon particularly in the air force. You know what -- you. You know drunk -- -- the bill twenty -- built training on separately. But the US forces in very pleased to farm bureau is well. -- Dear they're younger workers -- basically spent. They are tired lines. We've we've really excellent. Background and that it. It's fascinating and I just saw the other day that the I don't know who was the air force or army or whatever that the people are recommending. That there -- recruit read -- game which is all about. -- -- Which is one of the most interesting books on warfare ever written. Total anywhere without we're gonna and -- at a time. Expense recommend I could talk T for another hour -- this is the fascinating topic thank you so much for joining us. And tell our listeners where they can find more -- your good work. -- go to and I would thank you very much for doing them experts were having. Wired dot com slash danger room. I danger of like the experience training training -- it. It's a great blog everybody check it out Spencer thanks again for your time guys tune in next week for great show with bill Doherty who is the one of the founders of make magazine in the upcoming maker -- gonna talk about what is going on at the fair which is in Napoli two weeks. And the encroaching DIY. Culture don't miss that thanked Iran for watching thanks beef producing -- on the.