Reporters' Roundtable 57: Online Advertisers see all, know all
-- I don't know.
Hello everyone loved it reporters' roundtable does is -- in San Francisco is our weekly show -- try to dive into a single tech topic each time.
This week we're gonna be talking about.
Something near and dear to my heart because it is what actually pays my salary and I hope you got all agree with that I mean that's a good thing.
But advertising is changing. On the Internet.
Advertising is different from -- present that we grew up with -- kids. Most ads on the net are performance based -- advertisers pay when they when you the -- -- -- reader.
Click on a link this is the opposite of TV and print ads where the advertiser pays just get a brand message in front of you.
But performance based advertising is just the beginning of how the Internet is changing the game and advertising the really big difference now is coming in targeting.
Using ads that are custom made to appeal to you in particular.
Based on what you do online.
And in many cases who your friends are.
The nature of the messages shifting in the economics of sending a message are shifting to and to discuss the site to really well formed -- -- first in the studio.
I mean -- let's keep from at age that's.
That -- and Cisco bureau old reporter and social media reporter yes -- --
We are doing well thank you for coming in Mary -- -- yet.
Happy Christmas at the advertising that's you may have seen at -- if you don't read it which if you're not in the advertising industry you probably don't.
In mad -- yes the has been around that Long Will probably not the iPad edition.
Not iPad this habit of Linden the wooden leg at this and -- that right has been around for awhile you if you liked this season's mad men and -- we were in the earth.
At the said that these Nampa know where it -- age reporter interviewed Don Draper.
Cool and you -- that the right yes I need that boundary and dialing -- remote.
-- the miracle Skype Sam Whitmore of media survey.
Media survey analyzes tech media for technology companies marketing and PR people and Sam and I have been working in the same orbit for what is now.
Fifteen years 81818. Years.
I met you in 93 room geez you actually know --
Our. Thanks to make a time for -- Sam thank you -- let's get started basically for those of us.
People in the audience -- new to however hasn't -- -- -- how does it kind of work in a nutshell verses like old TV and print -- Samuel.
You did a fine job of describing -- advertising it's becoming increasingly targeted but.
Auto the big advertisers like the Procter & Gamble's in the -- they want engagement instead of just messaging new.
And they want you boot to respond to a topic. Like for example let's say jetBlue they want they want to turn flying into jetting right there -- very successful.
Social media advertiser they want you to contribute your our story about.
Overhead bins or or conversely.
A nice that -- that the flight attendant did for you and they want you to contribute to that they want your friends to contribute to it.
That's the new advertising of participatory as opposed to merely enduring a message.
Yes absolutely and what we -- that advertisers like Procter & Gamble at that it's a good example because they are very very active on eight black.
They have they used company's light a local company that -- -- started -- with.
Actually acted in adaptive path and one of them you know premier consulting firm in the beginning of the Internet and in the Internet business that is not just the Internet.
But on he has -- -- -- get satisfaction for example which is.
The used in marketing customer service -- marketing -- advertise.
You know that brings up a really interesting point something -- and -- in the New York Times last Sunday -- thought this is an on our show notes but just -- I remembered it yet so there's this company in -- in Brooklyn Decker -- my -- is a reseller of eyeglasses and at that guy forget his name -- made -- -- -- -- by insulting his.
People that problems with their orders right and people talked about it completed animal with time on get satisfaction particular.
And that actually Joost is Google rankings which served as the fact advertising -- so when you search for like.
I don't -- I'd let's pray at his site -- up the top not because it was popular but because so many people hated it right and -- people bought the cell.
How it is advertise how to advertisers and how -- fight against the kind of ground swell of people gaming the Google system.
I mean that I think that's an anomaly in a way however it does happen nine -- when people hate something film nights that.
You know you get so much attention I mean -- that it's not totally -- -- rate.
But it but you get -- -- our previous point I do think -- him meaning that point in terms of that.
These companies are now using engagement and Heidi engage with their customers -- you know if there -- service.
Right it's through service and faith but is that the Gateway of you know getting to know them and having go back you know go back and forth and their customers and so it is interesting that customer service is now another way of advertising company.
-- marketing your company or how great.
This sounds like such a fundamental shift.
From the old standard models of advertising where you've you've blasted out as many. Messages to reach as many people as possible.
And the old adage.
At age -- Is that with advertising you knew pretty well that about half of that work he just never knew which half.
So you have to buy so much with online advertising where everything is tracked and clicked and targeted and measured at all that stuff.
It goes from being -- to being metered and what effect -- that had on how campaigns are are are created for.
In online --
Well -- had.
I I might just take a quick step back I think that we have to delineate between -- feed business to business -- okay and and consumer advertising on beat it beat the world that I.
Come from. Performance based is is what it's all about people want leads any sort of advertising has to have some call to action.
Asked to be some back and that that you download a software where you white papers on the consumer is much more.
Conversational word of mouth and and much more focused on on customer satisfaction.
There's a big difference I think the traditional advertising principals will endure far longer -- -- B then they will in consumer.
Because we're hearing it's interesting because I've been hearing rumblings that consumer advertisers are getting much more just -- again.
In brand advertising and other kind of moving away from when the Arctic you know first popped up people are -- -- all.
-- -- we can know exactly when such and such user clicks on our -- and therefore were only on paper at at what somebody actually puts on it which drove advertising revenues down.
Although there more advertisers could -- -- for cheaper.
Up and now it looks I'm hearing and you -- -- -- from wrong that.
Advertisers are now looking to the Internet once again for awareness for brand campaigns that aren't.
Necessarily. Track wanna click basis is that correct.
-- I believe and I think you know something that -- very very very smart Michael -- on the digital ad -- that you know for the Internet to grow as a branding medium it needs to get better what he'd be does and print ads to well.
They want it wants to. Get people to earth by air and get something bad.
They didn't know they want right.
And on the Internet -- the opposite we know we want something we already healthy Internet went on it we search on Google for something we --
This is what -- --
And so we're targeted for that they.
Right I'm TV and print ads and looking through W fashion and the -- grammar vote.
And unlike holy -- only I don't want that 101000 dollar bag again I'm not speaking for right now I'd never spent ten you -- more than they know what you want to write a pop into your head right right.
So so that's why it.
But but it is actually true it and -- because TV makes you want and he didn't know you won it it's -- very emotional -- yes.
It does the Internet did that right now I don't I don't think I can tell you that because it even meat went out --
Have told the Internet I want let's move from that -- very astute observation and to what.
Is really happening and Internet advertising right now which is if you are want to buy an -- people don't buy ads on.
Oh you know adults -- -- her -- say you know at -- won't necessarily buy an add on that site they might.
Or owning it -- they they will but there there's something else going on which is that advertisers. Want to reach people who.
Are of a certain mindset. Or demographic but also -- so -- -- of people are being tracked and watched.
Across the web --
-- -- how that's going what are what are advertisers looking for how are they getting to us no matter where we are.
And and what are some of the trends in this kind of tracking if we're we're talking an about the FTC -- their -- do not track.
What what does it ever has really --
Fix it if I -- buy this upgrade is that all.
Yeah I mean isn't Dion thinks that --
Well I I think the big.
Holding companies that have lots of marketing and advertising arms want to know -- if you do a and B then then science is telling us that you're likely to do C and that for example if I buy a Harley-Davidson belt buckle that I'm I'm more likely to buy a Dell.
People that activities and actions into the hands of the advertisers in the -- never -- you're giving them permission to -- acting out when you sign into places like -- but in places like.
-- eight. I'm not.
Here you are giving them permission to -- your giving away privacy that's why is it really XP when.
You know people get that at eight but unlike with -- honey you've signed up for it view edit and you click -- I except without reading that you know that TO terms of service so.
Yet you gave away you know your privacy rights for it the ability to use it but -- -- -- at that edit now I read a great quote.
The other day I I wish I could remember who exactly that and -- and having name amnesia today your name or whatever it is. Which is.
If -- don't pay if you're not paying for the product you are the product.
Yeah exactly another.
So yeah I mean album but again you know it's like.
You you're stealth based but if --
Just -- change user is.
Attention but Google is capturing users intense. -- when I say I like -- I'm -- by.
And I spend to three hours on -- but you know looking through my friends.
Pictures of trip their trip to parent them and film month saying I would like to buy a ticket to care.
Whereas on Google it by -- parents.
In two you know the Google tab that means I'm probably looking for a ticket to Paris and people can sell me.
Airline tickets or arts you know -- -- or anything related.
Now you cover social media yet for for the advertising world.
Isn't it true though that what is happening on FaceBook and Twitter and and and around the social web is that advertisers and data intermediate and -- -- -- companies are trying to.
Package your interest that when you're looking -- pictures. Of pictures that of a friend in Paris already use you know to have in your first circle of friends.
People who live in work airline pilots or dog walkers or whatever the trying to harvest that information.
And and package up all the people who share information in -- bundles with elements of that -- what it's freaking people out these days.
Probably but I would say that they are asked him 88 it is that they getting ahead of our I don't think they are Bryant.
I think it is freaking people out a little bit.
Because time is short -- I wanna bring up Apple let's not forget Apple they -- in the advertising does not yet.
It hasn't been well reported but they are looking at the application that you download what you pull down from the app store.
How often you go to these different applications. They're not just profiling what you type into social media and what you read. Apple is now differentiating itself by looking at what you download and how -- -- use it that's really important information for advertisers.
That's right so.
How is that then it's Apple's selling an information to advertisers Zambia arms they are -- they have -- exclusive just as FaceBook information is exclusive to advertise its exclusive like.
They know what you're doing within their --
Apple is going to advertisers with I had and -- the same sort of thing only -- can tell you that.
You downloaded the poll blog reader and you use subscribe to of these particular RSS feeds within pole which is --
The iPad application only Apple has that --
Well okay so we know that Apple has getting information and how we use our.
Who are some of the other power brokers after the ISPs sound like they should be massive in the advertising business but as far as I know they're not why the wealth --
Is moving the -- in advertising.
Well you know there's.
And now I'm gonna be the one that forget.
The Wall Street Journal has done a phenomenal multi part series over the last two or three months about privacy and Internet and advertising.
And there's a company.
That is in sort of the the the cookie business let's just put it that way.
That is bending the rules.
And that normally your postal Anonymizer does data like -- -- does this and -- -- always -- -- that your IP address does that right.
But there are there are these -- -- -- -- various companies out there that don't want publicity. That are making this stuff.
And that the nasty stuff you don't -- -- getting sort of bad rap by agreement.
I arena that in you gotta read the terms of service and no one basket need to be on FaceBook -- and asking you to download games.
That's the other thing when you download frontier -- you're giving Zynga the right to your friends information to do you realize that most people don't.
I -- deathly yet in terms of the -- demon we're talking.
South island -- without them companies as well -- because so many more people are going on their mobile.
And the new generation meaning in people when he years younger than me.
The intense fifteen years and then you re -- your time and wrong but. -- -- better than me.
They are doing all that stuff -- there -- content.
So you know it -- you're okay -- -- -- but it he you know the right and and everyone that having trouble and -- to speak with FC.
That is you know went -- with.
-- network neutrality situation right.
The -- all now -- you're buying hang yourself on your domain even where you are when you're doing so like if you're at you know here Adam while Hulu is that why -- while polluted that you're buying.
The iTunes stuff you know that -- on the -- that you're listening at.
So those are a you know it's another huge a huge part of the industry at that knows exactly what you're doing -- it will also help.
Folks are gonna take a quick break.
And regroup and when we come back from his quick add that we're gonna talk a little bit and got -- FTC and what they're doing with their do not track we'll be right back.
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OK we're back that one of the things that we were talking about right for -- want to break was the FTC Federal Trade Commission.
There is a big initiative underway -- to launch a do not track.
Technology for the web which will.
What -- Sam what is it and globally due to the advertising --
Well let's it's a little -- a bill that's been filed yet or about to be filed but.
Is just reporting came out this week that there's certain congressional members.
Want as the phone solicitors had to deal -- -- do not call that there will be a master.
United States. Universal opt out functions so that you can go to -- website.
Or call an 800 number and say I am to be -- to vote.
Tracking so that there can be no cookies placed on me and no one will ever know where I go.
Like it would kill all the analytics that we've just been discussing and render I mean your job -- at age --
Well it would kill it if people actually did it right because people.
People aren't I don't think most people are getting -- -- it I think people actually.
I don't think people are gonna do it and yanking that you don't think consumers will sign up for -- think that technically feasible I think some people find out where it but I think that a lot of this stuff.
-- all like if you don't wanna be tracked in you don't want to you know you don't -- to be tracked online and think it's doable I think you can do it already apparent but I think a lot of consumers just aren't really paying attention and don't really care and -- flight.
People I mean as we know -- because of Christmas.
-- -- to -- people love to -- that people love to own stuff so.
-- they -- want advertising. In a weird way so I don't think I understand this is about tracking. So but they think.
I don't know I just think I know -- the very government then -- a big brother and privacy game but I think that the industry as well.
Advertisements is a lot of lobbying power -- I think this is gonna be met with a lot of -- a lot of you know. Lot of requests and that yes asked him.
People and people are afraid. Of where the information goes as you know both -- -- once its digital.
It live forever and fall into the wrong hands and I think some of the real opponents to this and this you don't cookie stuff.
Is let's -- the life insurance business started to gather data about me on FaceBook telling -- -- my friends that I like Snickers and I.
-- -- in N out burger and and no that's my right to tell my friends that want to in N out burger but if money premiums go up.
Because that's that's been harvested and you have these profiler is in the insurance companies in the health health care.
Looking at this person doesn't take care of himself and -- Jack and his race that's that's really what I think is behind the fear.
Yes so -- you know we reported that that for example of -- Direct Marketing Association.
Has started an opt out program for consumers and -- going to be very Mary.
At about that because they don't whine you know they need the targeting and they need to collect information where their advertising. Though -- ain't that the consumer.
Things like -- consumer opt out program.
Those are going contain just like eighth when they were threatened with -- the he went on their privacy that came out.
They reacted very quickly --
Now -- -- can write a dissertation on the privacy options on the eighth grade via -- mean it takes like -- victory there dissertation right yeah takes thirty minutes the satellite credits captions but I went through -- -- because.
You know I'm an intelligent persons are you most people aren't it's not that it took on I don't know I think Facebook's -- -- smart and well. Let's just say you can't tell I'm what you are was bored and I can't tell where I live and you can -- --
Very important -- -- woman these days in no -- noted understood so.
Where they're going with this.
Keep going the edge lit up again the idea that -- that bleak again we reported for the marketing industry is that it.
We want to stop the collection of information but not targeting -- targeting it's still okay speaking of.
Advertising in and the targeting -- the collecting of the information one of the things we're talking about pre show here is this little app called ad block and there are other things like -- on the web.
If you don't wanna see the ads.
You can't actually block them from coming through it now as somebody who makes as I said.
His salary he.
My salaries advertising supported I find this reprehensible but there are a lot of people who like the idea being able to turn off the -- what.
Why are people so resistant to paying the toll that the tenth of a penny here that -- care through their attention. That.
They seem necessary to turn off advertising which is --
They have to know how the sites they like make their money.
I'll tell you I became very annoying what exactly. It's it interferes these roadblock ads.
-- that pop up all of this ad will expire and fifteen seconds that's and that's an insult I don't wanna be faced with that.
But it -- a thumb on FaceBook and I see the ads on the right and it says hey this cult band that.
You seem to like is gonna be playing ten miles away from you and a few days.
I don't consider that intrusive I actually like that sort of thing.
-- -- same thing I mean the you know it.
Let's just -- this lady planning a fist with another -- -- on this diet might be like I -- I -- going to go to -- yeah -- I -- and say I don't want your Atkins Diet -- -- -- instead -- probably at 12117. Line on the Internet act.
However you don't like whatever I don't know education for Somalia or something and find they can advertise them --
But what I'm hearing from people in the industry is that one of the things that has not yet been solved technologically or criminal analyst's point of view is.
Using location and mobile data in advertising it what what is going on there we --
Foursquare. And all the location services giving us coupons for check in -- kick -- great example.
From a location mobile -- marketing. What's. The near term future for location based ads and and mobile track.
It's bright. It's bright because there's direct benefit -- Google is importing itself to overspend for group on.
Because it's providing actual value at at the point of what of the marketers call it when you when you raise your hand and say I am interested in something.
An and advertising generally doesn't give that -- a -- it's like a message that they hope you'll remember later when you really need to remember that's what traditional advertising news.
But location based allows you to complete the loop right at point of sale.
You know and it's just a lot of really good marketing minds are up nights and weekends these days figuring out how to how to conquer them on.
Are we going to be seen pop up drive by ads and you walk by the start recommended that the nightmare scenarios you're walking down the street it's like here's the coupon is another combining a phone doesn't stop ringing what's that movie with Tom Cruise in minority report --
I think the idea I typed -- -- but it.
Get flight you can most likely only get the point where you can opt in or out of it and you can't blame them -- kids.
The guy that -- -- panelists from group on and forget you mean he wasn't you know one of the PR people that he you know he did -- -- -- -- --
The hyper local market is pretty much where -- that and we can see it out with C let's relief -- the heels platform because.
Yes it's a self serve as.
You know -- -- self service program for local businesses you claim your page you claim your deals page of one afford deals that you can view.
It's very simple and you're you know you don't need.
12100 dollars a day or two wouldn't what is this thing 121000 dollars a month that you need to do good local advertising you don't need to do that you can do is doing DL.
And how people checked in and see spike in you know you can do you or your tenth -- --
So. This local -- an advertising is.
Now available and that the reason that -- budget is and I'm gonna say this because even though I'd love Twitter and I use it every -- more often than they might.
That's why you know -- but.
Has taken air out of -- sometimes between here and --
Because Twitter doesn't have self serve solution. For small businesses.
We're advertising or advertising -- -- is it coming and what we know but I don't not mean they need to do something that -- you know that pension.
They need to have something that isn't self service quick easy solution.
That light based but it but he felt right you can buy -- doing yourself Lori goes up to eight.
Million dollar Procter & Gamble account that managed by a thousand -- people.
The -- I guess it to your point com.
I can't its -- I mean -- if FaceBook is worth fifty billion dollars the reason is because it's an advertising platform Twitter.
I -- -- valued at about four billion dollars because they haven't yet figured out the advertising.
Now and Google of course is an advertising company -- simple yes yes it just happened -- -- unless.
Quick thing -- -- if you're sitting in AT&T park next year.
And you check in.
And you get something on your Smartphone that says you know at the end of the fifth inning if you go to not judge stand and say Willie Mays.
Everything you buy is free. Is that is that effective advertising I think so that's and then I mean that's common.
So what if there's another kind of location based advertising which is virtual dismissed -- as we all know that that.
Product placement is.
The eight in movies and we know also that the computer gaming industry is I -- you larger tech it tech game nada -- -- computer gaming industry is now larger than the movie and --
And were beginning to see ads in -- yet.
Now -- one of the instinct things -- in game advertising is you know more about who's playing the game and you'll know exactly what they are doing because they're interacting -- their wired and -- tell -- about what's happening in game advertising.
Well everything I mean from the smallest.
You know social -- game. --
For example prices right is -- but -- -- -- prices -- is -- -- -- they've been interacting with their audience.
Fit the -- fifties are wary they've been around for forty years before stopping -- though.
But now you know when -- -- -- but then you know those brands are in the game.
So if you're actually branding -- in the game -- in prices right -- but I mean that's in.
Those are act silly -- you know -- you know those that depend on the game designers.
But it's also in you know.
-- -- -- grand theft audio.
I mean cars sprayed -- card can buy an ad space inside the game.
Those guys we know eighteen to 34 rate those guys are access requires them and because they don't wear make up --
I get some guys wear makeup -- and -- the fact they're saying that there's not a lot of a cosmetics advertising and GTA now okay let it.
They sometimes they take a break in -- theory -- raid I've seen them opened -- -- -- and reach for it for Cheerios are rapidly they can have they're so much potential he could if you theme you know as I have -- been that would have been -- -- Betty back in the day you repeat that -- -- nearest gate.
-- -- -- -- -- --
And they have video game -- is agreed to that and why I play video games for hours.
-- -- -- -- --
Down Sharia -- -- that they have -- break that they take a lot and on the street they endless potential. And they're woven in.
It's not part of that part of the -- that our next.
What's new like I said and -- for years drive and -- USAA and go one by the billboards as I drive.
That's passive than you you said -- -- it's this new what's new is active aft end and so I could play the new Tony Hawk and drink. You know a couple of cans of for a local -- then I'm gonna do better and the more you know I mean.
-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
Anyway. It still.
How does advertising. And online advertising palace that in changing the product that we -- -- when -- kind of close with.
What is the effect of all -- advertising on the actual product that we are spending our money.
What category and listening tech businesses the network excites us about tech house tech products of -- change by advertising in and in the way that we react --
Why did we can start with Poland's -- I an Android windows phone not mean to me talk about that yeah I am.
I don't know what he thinks the M I eight I -- diet you know I think I think iPhone is.
I think Apple enough I've done is most of it is.
Strictly Coleman threw their advertising whereas a lot of then I don't have financing that right after that I do think that a lot of -- I don't think change is the product I definitely think. They have a smart campaign and makes it seem like you're given equal at the -- I didn't and now but.
Not that that Apple has -- an interesting things that going back the beginning of the show.
We talked about how the original advertising campaigns -- -- operational -- image based if you use this product to be cool you -- -- catalog their Cadillac everybody will know your big successful auction.
Apple sells aspirations yes Microsoft sells productivity.
Our art features I mean more more and not as much as they used and yes.
But it seems as a fundamental difference that that Apple understands you know what you want emotional illustrate.
Get that -- denied on and I IE have.
You know owns an.
I mean it's just much more use well but you feel as cool.
I guess not so worried about the market could get you thrown out at I don't care and I sort of person that I don't need I I don't want the iPhone anymore I all right nened.
What's next what's coming up thing in online advertising what's the the next big thing here --
Out of -- -- out of home -- in combination. With.
Well mobile advertising and out of home if you can get a message to somebody for example who's in best buy and that's already happened right that this.
-- -- of CNET cover it but.
I think the big trick is to be able to be able to communicate to people who are in the store and ready to buy or are.
Let's say eighty.
But -- loaded and in some.
Hunting or officiating. And day you're online and they leave they tell you aware of the the the the -- gas station is where would bait shop is --
Looking at really where you are and what you're most likely to buy because you're where you are adding location as the number one thing we're gonna have to.
Opt out of the real world I would say that I would say that -- -- the location think he'd be going really really high I would say that.
You know beef but it's still gonna continue to improve there -- -- interaction with you know that -- their customers and consumers.
Twitter is not going anywhere in -- though it people love Twitter -- they just love it love it love it so they're gonna have figured something out.
And I think Twitter me the maybe Twitter can do some -- -- kind of combination of location. Newton I don't know maybe they can't but I would say definitely.
You know and advertising combination on -- but they -- think does that iPad and tablet it's gonna be big because we haven't seen -- advertising on iPad as much as we can.
The point though are able watch for the things -- thanks for coming yes you can find -- you can find Irene has worked on at age dot com is that right.
Sam it does an excellent service for. Technology professionals called media service and -- can people find your work.
Media survey dot -- -- thank you don't miss that are right if you want to know more about what's coming up on future. Episodes of reporters roundtable go to.
Reporters roundtable dot cnet.com you can send an email -- me you have an idea for topic roundtable at cnet.com can follow me and Twitter RA FE.
And check the blog -- the show notes and all the cool stuff like that.
Again thank you for coming in an -- thank you Sam thank you need of we're producing and Teague has all next -- pick and he and the --
On the web by and watch out.