How to launch a productShould you launch your product at a trade show like Demo or CES, or should you try to drum up interest on your own? This week on the Roundtable, Revision 3 CEO Jim Louderback and Stage Two Consulting's Jeremy Toeman discuss both successful and doomed...
[ Music ] ^M00:00:08 >> Hello, and welcome to Reporters' Roundtable, CNET's deep dive into a burning tech topic every week. Today we are talking about product launches. I am Rafe Needleman and welcome. So the reason we're doing this show now is that the demo conference just ended a week after the TechCrunch50 Conference where 120 products were launched at these shows. Is it smart to launch products at shows? Is this how products should be launched? Is there a better way? So to talk about this issue in some depth, I have two great guests; first Jim Louderback, who is the CEO of Revision3, the other computer video network. >> Hey, we work with you guys, you have done some of our videos. >> We share a lot of stuff actually, it's a good relationship. >> We cooperate, we don't compete. >> Jim has been in tech media for 16 years, your bio officially says. And certainly I think we met [inaudible] Davis in the old days. >> Yeah, when you started at Corporate Computing, I started at PC [inaudible] Labs. >> Right. You were director of the labs, weren't you? >> Yes, PC [inaudible] Labs. >> Right, I remember that. Fun days. He was also the editor and chief of PC Magazine, which is probably the flashiest job you had before you went into video. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, so anyway, welcome, thanks for coming. >> It's good to be here, thank you. >> We were criticizing stuff before and then we said well everybody's a critic. And in fact, that is your job -- >> Yeah. >> -- and mine. >> Yeah. >> And over here we have Jeremy Toeman, who is the founder of Stage2 Consulting, which is a marketing and media relations firm. Did I say that correctly? >> That's about right, yeah. >> There are a ton of consultancies out there to help companies launch products, and I wanted somebody from that community on this particular show. The reason I asked Jeremy to join us in particular is because he helped launch Sling Media and Boxy, which are two really interesting media plays, and they launched them kind of using new social media strategies, as well as Bug Labs, which is a kind of OpenSource Lego for electronic construction, and representing it wrong. >> That [inaudible] is one of the purposes, a lot of it's for prototyping guys. >> Yeah. Really cool stuff. And he also does his own products, which makes him an unusual consultant like Legacy Locker, which is kind of a place for you to archive the keys to your digital assets like photos and Facebook and stuff like that. He is one of the most thoughtful communication strategists I know and that's why I invited him to be here as opposed to all the other people who wanted to get on the show. So welcome. >> Thank you very much. >> So let's start with the topic, Dijour [phonetic], which is these product launch shows. Now I've been going to Demo for I think about 20 years literally since 1989, TechCrunch all three years since it's been running. Under the radar events which I moderate - actually you moderate as well, we co-moderate some of these events, the [inaudible] parties, et cetera. Does it still make sense to launch a product on these giant demo shows? >> You know, they're not that giant. I mean, let's start with that, right, because they're what, 800 people at Demo, or 600 people at one of these shows. And when there was a core group of really tight influentials that would go to those shows, it made sense. I'm not so sure that that even makes sense anymore. >> I think it's also a lot nosier. Demo came around, it was the only thing of its kind, it happened infrequently. Now there's a lot of events all year around and two at the same time of the year. I think even when these guys are weeding out, apparently thousands of companies are applying, they're weeding them down to their 120 or more, and we're still faced with I think a bit of a noise problem. >> Well you know, the other thing is it used to be a lot of the stuff was hardware, it was big iron for IT, and these are products that are kind of difficult, you really wanted to go see and touch and get your hands on. When I was at Demo, and I think maybe three products were hardware, everything else was a website. And I remember sitting in there and going, "Well you know, I could have just loaded this up at home if someone told me to, I didn't have to come here to see it." >> I think that's one of the challenges, is that a lot of the startup climate today is websites, where there's no benefit to being hands on, you send somebody a link and boom, there's your website. >> But there's a benefit to being at these conferences - >> Sure. >> -- I mean, that's maybe a separate topic - >> Yeah. >> -- but as far as the benefit to the people who make the product, who are trying to launch it in front of the audience, what do you get by launching to a ballroom of people mostly press and venture capitalists these days? >> So the promise is two things, right? >> Yeah. >> I mean, you said it right there, the promise is that you're going to be able to raise money and/or you're going to get major ink in CNET, New York Times, Wall Street Journal, Revision3, whatever, but I don't see either of those happening that much at these events anymore. >> No. >> You know, our perspective is that there are very few reasons that will really drive you to these events. From our perspective one of the biggest advantages to going would be if you were going to startup, let's say you're from Europe or South America, you're not connected in anyway to the valley, you're not well funded, but you've built something really impressive. Well it's probably a pretty good way in because you do get to meet a network of a lot of people all at the same time and hopefully get a lot of the good coverage. >> Yeah, no, for some companies it's good, and the press that does show up do interesting articles on it. Rafe, how many companies did you write about, five? >> Yeah, about five. Yeah, I have five top ones, two stinkers, and a couple others. >> Yeah. >> And I had another journalist there, so we covered, I don't know, maybe 15, 20 products out of 60. >> Out of 60. >> Yeah. >> So you covered about a third of the landscape. >> [inaudible] Yeah, and I feel bad for all the other ones who paid $18,000 to be there. >> I didn't see anybody from the Journal there. >> No, and this is the first year they didn't show actually. >> Oh, really? >> Yeah. >> Yeah, [inaudible] I don't know why they didn't show up. >> And at these newspapers, there are less and less people able to cover this stuff, right, so there was one person there from USA Today, there used to be two or three. So there's less people covering the space. And I didn't see a lot of blogs or new media, and I think the way the influence has changed, I'm not sure you can get the influential people at these events. >> So you guys are reflecting basically what I said in one of my other blogs, my Pro PR Tips blogs where I say why would you launch at one of these - as much as I love these shows, I love going, I love schmoozing with my friends, seeing all the VCs, finding out what they're up to, seeing all the products kind of paraded in front of me like a beauty pageant, but my question is why on earth would you want to be one of the contestants at this beauty pageant, when unless you are Miss Super Universe or Mr. Super Universe, basically you don't get the press that you want. So if that is the case, how do you launch a product these days in this noisy environment and get any play or any attention for it? >> First of all, my guess right now is we should be ruling out the Googles of the world because they can just put up a blog post about anything they've done and they're going to get whatever they - >> Google could launch new product however they want - >> Yeah. >> -- but launching Google itself was the question. >> [inaudible] >> Which was a quiet launch - >> Yeah. >> -- it was a small product when it started. >> From my perspective, the number one thing about launching a product is the product. I see far too many companies that feel they have to get to market too soon, they aren't ready, they haven't really thought through their user experience. Anytime when I see these companies launching what I would call too early, that raises a question mark in my head, you know, what pushed them into their launch prematurely? Our biggest thing with all the companies we actually meet with is we don't want to launch you until we think you're ready. >> Yeah, but shipping is a feature. I mean, you can only go so long and refine and refine and refine and refine and refine until you end up refining something that's perfect, but the market has passed you by. >> Well I'll define ready as usable. It's okay to have some quirks, it's okay to be missing some cool killer features that you think would really improve your product. But I think we see it over and over again, it comes at launch, and you kind of scratch your head like, "Well I can already do this," or, "I've seen this before, is this another [inaudible] play," as opposed to bringing the best foot forward right from the get go. So one of the tactics we recommend for companies in that situation where they have built something cool but maybe it's not really ready for the masses, is launch in a private way. >> What do you mean private way, you mean like Private Beta? >> Yeah, Private Beta. So give out invitations to some selected publications, let users invite their friends, but basically put up the red velvet rope outside the club [inaudible] >> So you're creating an artificial scarcity that people like - 'cuz right now, look, Google is doing this with Wave. >> Yeah, totally. >> People are scalping Wave invites, which I find just hilarious. >> But it also lowers the bar to what people expect. >> That's what I want to start, the stub hub for private invites for beta companies. >> That's been done. >> That's been done. >> Damn, all the good ideas are taken. All the [inaudible] and all the good ideas. >> Just a little [inaudible] here, as soon as you do that of course, the guys who are doing the Private Betas figure out a way to make it not work. >> Yeah, I wouldn't actually [inaudible] >> But setting expectations is so big, right, so if you're going to do a Private Beta and everybody knows that they're getting in to see something early, then they don't hold it to the same expectation as a big, loud public launch, front page of USA Today kind of thing. >> You know, I'm going to take a little bit of a different tack here, let's say you do have a product and you're under the radar and it's really cool and you want to get some real good press, these events can be good for that sort of a thing if you do it right. I mean, you really have to focus on how do you actually get the most out of it, and that's making sure that you're meeting with people. You know the way the companies do it that is wrong is they go in, they bring their product, they have their PR person, and you know, you've seen this as a journalist, you walk around, and you get the drive-by shootings from the PR people, "Please come look at my product, please come look at my product." It's like, "Look, I already know what I want to look at because I've done my homework in advance because I've looked out, and because I've probably had some people contact me saying it's really cool, check this out." So having a game plan and going into it whether you launch at Demo or TechCrunch or anywhere else, I think it's just as important as, well you've got to have a product first [inaudible] what you're saying, have a product. >> And I think I want to build on what you were just saying, you really want to have a goal. Do you want a thousand users, do you want a million users. Do you want feedback, do you want usage? I think the hardest challenge for startups especially in the Web two point something era is so much of the startups we see are about community, and so you launch a company with no community and you - >> That's like a bar that no one shows up at. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> Right, it's the coolest club in town tomorrow once everybody is already in it, and it's not chicken and egg of how do you start building a club, which again [inaudible] really like the invite system because again you lower that bar, people don't expect to see, you know, this thing already has 30,000 votes [inaudible] >> You know what I think hasn't changed, perhaps the composition has, but those early adopter influential leaders are even more important now. I mean, think about it, when we went to Demo back in the 90s, we were the early adopter influencers because most communication was constrained, so you had to go to a magazine, it was pre 95, 96, we were the ones who said what was cool and what wasn't. There are still people out there who say what's cool and what isn't, it's just they aren't necessarily working at the newspapers and the magazines. >> This is the key issue I think for a lot of people, is that the conference idea, even I will say this, even TechCrunch, which is a new conference, it's still the old model. There are differences in how they do things, but it's still the idea. You control the access of information until the conference and then you put it in front of a whole bunch of journalists or bloggers or whomever, and it's like this is the great unveiling, and it's nosy. And guys like us who have been doing this forever, there are more of us than there ever have been, and everybody is following their favorite people, maybe me, maybe not, whatever. So how do you actually have any impact when you have a new product, how do you get anybody to pay attention to it when it costs a lot less to launch a product these days because of [inaudible] services and the internet, and there are so many people writing about the same thing, how do you get any impact? >> Well it ties into what Jeremy was saying about figuring out what you want to do. If you want to reach a core group of urban hipster millennial males, go after the lead dog alpha males in that group and get your product in their hands and get them hopefully talking about it. >> And forget the Journal is what you're saying? >> Well the Journal does not speak to urban hipster millennial males. >> But that's my point. So say you've got urban hipster millennial male dot com or whatever the product is, I don't know what it is, it's totally not me, so whatever. And you're - am I still on? >> Yeah. >> I lost my headphones. >> So you go to Thrillist, like Thrillist [inaudible] >> But you're VC is coming to you and saying, "You know, I want to see some press." What do you do? >> Well I know now, my answer a couple years ago, get new VCs. I know you can't do that, I think you have to first of all explain to them who your audience is and who your target is, I mean, it's a tough thing. And if they keep on saying, "I want to see you in the Journal," then you're like, "Well give me another $50,000 so that I can hire [inaudible] best friends." That's actually [inaudible] because [inaudible] doesn't work that way. >> Yeah. >> But hire somebody who is focused on that media. If you're going after millennial men, you want to work with consultancies and companies and the people who know how to reach those influencers, and it's not the same people. And I know this now that I've been through hiring, and Jeremy, you really know this, hire different PR agencies, some that really know the New York old press, some that really know Hollywood, some that really know the sort of social infrastructure. What are you trying to get accomplished, who are you trying to get to; go find somebody who can help you do that. >> Jeremy, you participate in the launch of products that are fundamentally different in who they're going for and I'll just mention three of them; Slingbox, Legacy Locker, interesting product we talked about, and Bug Labs, which was that uberGeek product, totally different audiences. >> Yeah. >> How do you kind of navigate how to get these things to the place you wanted them to be? >> First of all, Slingbox is a really interesting story because it launched before people used terms like social media. So one of the founders, Blake, had basically said to me when we were gearing up for launches, "Make sure those people who are blogging know about us and that we have a community where our customers can come and participate." I mean, these were concepts before there were books about them and blogs dedicated to how to do these things, we were out there doing it. And Sling was one of those David and Goliath kind of companies which I personally think works extremely well when you're trying to build community, trying to build engagement, when you're the little guy taking on the Sonys and Panasonics of the world, you'd be surprised at the amount of success people wish upon you. It's [inaudible] especially in the tech community, that we love our Davids and do not like our Goliaths. And by the way, Sling launched with a lot of VC money with a PR firm on major news, a big splash [inaudible]. Bug Labs on the other hand, we literally launched the company at a dinner with four influencers. We picked people from a variety of spheres, one was Ryan Block, editor for Engadget at the time, another one was Robert Scoble, obviously a pioneer in social media. Another one is Dave Winer, someone who is a big advocate of OpenSource, Linux, et cetera. And the Bug platform basically is the intersection of those three worlds. So we picked three very influential people who I happened to already have a relationship with and say, "Hey, we want to show you something." There was no embargo, there was no press release, there was no games played. >> But did they know they were the only people seeing it? >> Yeah. >> Okay, good. >> Yeah, I told them straight up, I actually told them what they would be seeing. >> So you did the whole exclusive thing, it's just you didn't give the exclusive to the Times or Newsweek or the Journal, you gave it to blogger, blogger, and blogger? >> We did, but with one side it's [inaudible] >> [inaudible] those guys - >> Sure. >> -- because I think that was smart, but - >> We didn't necessarily approach it from the "We're giving you an exclusive" perspective, it was very much a feedback moment. "Ryan Block, you see every gadget that comes to market, what do you think of the concept?" "Dave Winer, you have been studying OpenSource and being an OpenSource advocate for years, what do you think of the concept?" We just didn't have an embargo, we didn't have something for them to even look at other than the website went live that day. >> But I will say, because I think I was at PC Mag at the time and we were pissed because this really cool product that's for geeks that could be really interesting, but why didn't they come to us? So you know, you may have gotten great press from those guys and we may not have been on your market, but you know, we weren't really that happy with it. >> We only had so many tables at the dinner. >> I don't want to go to the dinner, I just want to know about the product. >> In many ways, I don't think we necessarily thought through the perspective of who would feel they're being left out. >> I'll bet you got a lot of people who felt left out, right? >> In all candor, no, I mean, maybe who didn't tell me, but the emails we received - >> No, I never told you. Now you know. >> You skipped me on that. We got a lot of people saying - >> We're going to hug after the show. >> You missed the dart board that I had in my office with your face. No, I'm kidding. >> I've seen it. >> And the last one you mentioned was Legacy Locker which wins on again a different spectrum. In this case we did what I would call a more traditional approach, we picked an embargoed date, we picked publications that we thought would be interesting. And most importantly I think, we had a topic that wasn't being talked about, so we didn't have to really like pitch us as much as say, "Hey everybody, what happens to your online identity when you die? Because two certainties we have today is that you have an online identity, and don't take this wrong way, but we're all going to die one day." So we knew this would be an interesting topic and so we didn't have to hard pitch, "Oh, here is why everybody in the world needs our service," more of, "Hey, let's start talking about this topic and see where it goes." And since then it's made national and international television, people are paying attention. So we managed to get ahead of a conversation and now have rode that wave through pretty good success. >> So a related question to that is timing. Is there a bad time or a good time to launch a product? >> Definitely. I think anyone that's considering launching a product who does not have variety of calendars of what's going on in the tech industry, you're missing the boat. I saw companies tried to launch on September 9th, the day that Beatles rock band and Apple were doing their things, I don't even understand why you'd bother on that kind of a day, it's a dead day. >> But what about launching at CES, I mean, everybody launches on the day before CES, there's a lot of noise, but there are a lot of people covering that. >> We'll have 40 reporters there. >> Right. CES stands alone. CES is a unique event as far as I see it. TechCrunch 50 is not the equivalent of CES because at CES the same companies come back showing all their gadgets. It's okay to show last year's 50-inch plasma as long as you're showing something new. There's no equivalent to website conference where you can just keep showing amazon.com because you can just go to amazon.com. >> Yeah. So there are certain times to launch [inaudible] to get back to your question, you know, you don't want to launch on December 26th, right? >> Probably not, unless you're a return your terrible gift website. >> Yeah, that's a good idea. >> There you go, a new business idea. >> We're going into business, yeah, stub hub for terrible gifts. >> Yeah. Okay, been there. The other day on the Real Deal podcast, we talked to Carmine Gallo who wrote a book, The Presentation Secrets of Steve Jobs. >> Carmine. >> Yeah. [Inaudible] also by the way. >> Yeah. What secrets for launching a product can we take away from Steve Jobs that we can actually do that don't involve wearing a turtleneck? >> I would say make a great product and do it consistently for 20 years. >> Well that's easy, okay. >> Yeah, well if you look at - the Apple machine is about making great products. >> Is it? But it's also about creating desire. >> It's also about [inaudible]. But it's both, it's that Apple has recognized that there is a tie in between technology and lifestyle and they cater to that. And I'm not trying to convince that the MacBook is better, I don't really care is one is better than the other, that's not the point. They've clearly made the statement, the iPhone, I mean, you see the white headphones on the bus, you see Apple products as they fit into your techno lifestyle. And considering people are spending hours and hours a day with technology, that's a pretty smart move. ThinkPad is a great laptop, but it's certainly not a lifestyle statement. >> It is a lifestyle statement, it's a different kind of lifestyle than the lifestyle you're leading. You're cool urban hipster, I'm the CEO [inaudible] >> All right, moving on, what about launch disasters? What can we learn from disasters of product launching? And I have my favorite which you guys know, which we can get into if you want. But I wanted to ask you guys, what's the worst launch you've ever seen and what did we learn from it? >> I know mine right away. The worst launch that I've seen, which I don't completely attribute to their own fault, was last year's Cool [phonetic]. >> That's mine too. >> Yeah. >> That's how bad it was. >> Well it's an easy target because one, they actually built something good; two, when they briefed companies everything worked; three, when they launched everything didn't. And because they had built the bar so high. When you come into somewhere and say we're better than Google, and Google is good, that's a high bar that they themselves set. And so the moment it wasn't working to that level, they were done for. I don't necessarily know specifically what I would have done different. Well I have a few ideas, but most relevant to that is about that expectation management. If they had said, you know, there's some sneak preview to a new search thing that's going to be launching later this year, and the same, whether it's an invite system or not, dropped this hint that there's something coming, it would be harder to look back on. >> So to summarize that, they over promised and under delivered? >> Yeah. Actually by the way, I have another one that we can talk about, Segway [phonetic]. >> Oh, really? >> Well you saw a week before, and by the way, I read the story behind this and actually again it wasn't actually their fault, but you saw things in the news like they're going to rebuild cities around this. The moment you hear that, I'm expecting my flying saucer, right, or like my laser jet pack or whatever. And it turns out that this kind of clunky scooter, that by the way I personally want and I'll take one if anyone's got them, but it was so far away from something that you're rebuilding cities around. >> Yeah, there was a lot of speculation there. I'll pull up on, I'm going to go a little bit further in the past, but General Magic, I don't know if you remember General Magic when they released their device. And I was in the announcement, and this was back in the day when there weren't a lot of bloggers, it was mostly press. The room was overloaded with people from the company, and every time they would make a statement about a cool new feature that was actually something that was in tons of other products, the room would break out in applause, like unmitigated unrivaled applause. And I'm like, "You guys are applauding because when somebody sends you an email it automatically adds the email address into your address book? There's like five things that do that." >> Brilliant. >> That is not worth an applause. And it was just so over the top like incredibly obvious features. You know what, it was a pretty cool product, there were some really nice things in there, but they were so over the top about how wonderful and cool and amazing everything that was just sort of [inaudible] was, and then you got a T-shirt. >> They didn't deliver the product? >> No. If it was that cool, then they should have been giving product to people, not just T-shirts. >> How good was the T-shirt? >> I still have my Newton T-shirt, I do not have my General Magic T-shirt, I don't know where it is. >> How about good launches? I'll launch this one, at Demo a couple of years ago, MooBella, do you remember the MooBella? It was the ice cream machine that made your ice cream on the spot, flash froze it for you, put the mix in, gave it to you, and it was the best product to demo in a show that was mostly software and web services, it was actually hardware, and it was edible, it was so cool. >> That's cool. >> But they still haven't shipped the product. But that was taking advantage of the demo audience, and they got tons and tons of press, they were the belle of the ball. That and the [inaudible] which of course died. How about other good launches that we can learn from? >> I'll give you another Demo good launch, and again, the kinds of things that make conferences worth going to, TiVo. TiVo launched at Demo, actually so did the Palm Pilot, and at the time, you know, I remember reading or watching a video or something about TiVo, and I remember hearing about it, the [inaudible] the reporters was writing was, "I just saw this thing that's going to change the way we think about television." And that's actually what the product does. So it was a complete fulfillment. Not only did they build a phenomenal product, but they pitched it in a place where seeing it was believing, they gave the reporters there this vision into something amazing. Those reporters brought the message to their readers, nobody was let down along the way. It held truth from start to finish. And you had to see it, you couldn't just go to the website, tivo.com was irrelevant. >> And this was sort of a more extended launch, but I liked what, you know, back to ThinkPads [inaudible] when they launched, they put together an industry advisory counsel and a customer advisory counsel. And it wasn't just lip service, they took 10 or 15 people from the industry, basically analysts and editors and some of the top folks there, and then they took top customers from big companies like General Motors and people like that. Twice a year they would spend three days really opening up the [inaudible] and showing off all the new stuff, all the new technology, things that they were just interested in launching and getting feedback. And I thought that transparency, before transparency was even something that anybody really even cared about, was really refreshing and I think it really helped them get their products out there, and as they came up with subsequent products, helped get those products popularized. And even when they came up with failures like the Butterfly Keyboard, it helped them get over that more quickly. >> I wouldn't call the Butterfly Keyboard a failure, maybe it was a failure from a marketing -- >> It was a timing perspective. >> The Butterfly Keyboard, for those people who aren't aware of it, this was in a ThinkPad that was smaller than a keyboard, and when you opened it up the keyboard was like a jigsaw puzzle kind of, you know, expanded out over the sides. And it was a beautiful piece of origami engineering, from a market perspective. From a sales perspective it may not have been a winner, but it put ThinkPad design on the map. >> I agree. At the beginning ThinkPad really pushed themselves into a whole new space in laptops at a time when Toshiba utterly dominated the market. ThinkPad came out, they had the keyboard that was usable, although it broke a lot. By the way, you could probably find a video of it on YouTube, I'm sure somebody has put something up there. >> Well yeah, the problem with the keyboard wasn't the keyboard itself, it was that they mated it to a machine that had a slower processor as the Pentiums were coming out, it was on a slower processor. It took them so long to release that they ended up, you know, they had warehouses for it, they lost tens of millions of dollars on this because basically the keyboard was cool but everybody wanted faster computers. >> Yeah. >> And the keyboard wasn't good enough to get a sub optimal processor. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. All right, well we are pretty much out of time, so any last words, say you've got a launch, you've got the press, just real briefly, what do you do next, how do you follow-up on a launch that is getting the buzz that you want? >> First you should plan your launch as only part of, you should have a 90-day minimum plan that has the launch happening inside that plan and have the next steps ready. So if you don't know what you're doing 20 and 60 days after your launch, you're really not ready to launch yet. And it's okay to have a few things up in the air, see how things go, et cetera, but whether it's the next set of features that are coming, some new, some improvements, some offering, some deal, some something, you should have that lined up, or don't go big. Launch quiet. Get something happening so that you can build to that point when you're ready. >> Yeah, keep on coming out with new things, like the Toro-TV [phonetic] folks that launched a demo. I know you talked about, you know, I spent some time talking too. Cool product, cool service, but now for them to continue to be successful, they've got a little buzz, what's the next big thing? Keep front of mind of the people who have already stated a desire to track what you're doing, keep in touch with those people, release new things, keep on pushing the envelop further and have that - I think Jeremy makes a really good point. You've got to have a plan, you can't just launch and be done with it, you've got to have your 90, your 120, and your 360 and just keep on pushing it every day. >> All right. Thank you, Jeremy. Thank you, Jim. Thanks, Lynn Fu, producer. Be sure to visit Jeremy's blog, livedigitally.com and Stage2 Consulting, your site. >> Thank you. >> And of course, watch all the great shows over Revision3, some of them actually air here through CNET. But producer of great shows. Thanks for listening everyone to Reporters' Roundtable, we're live each Friday at 1:00 Pacific time at live.cnet.com. Next time, in advance of all the products coming out, we're going to be talking about tablet computers. We have some great guests coming, I will be announcing those shortly on the blog and on my Twitter feed, Rafe. If you have questions, email me, email@example.com or give me feedback on the show and the show format and the guests and what we should be doing next. So we'll see you next time on Reporters' Roundtable, thanks for tuning in. ^M00:30:40 [ Music ]