Ep. 87: Happy 30th birthday, IBM PC!It was 30 years ago today that IBM launched the PC market. We take a look back at the creation of the PC with an interview with Dr. Dave Bradley, the guy who invented Ctrl-Alt-Delete, and look forward with Michael Miller, former editor of PC Magazine.
Everyone welcome to reporters' roundtable happy birthday IBM PC thirty years ago today at the Waldorf Astoria hotel in New York. IBM launched its first mass market personal computer. Today. I'm pleased to tell -- that we're introducing the IBM personal computer it's a landmark announcement for our division and our company. And we believe it will set a new standard for the industry here it is the IBM personal computers. It puts a lot of power in a small package with many competitive features. -- of that video anyway the IBM 5150 PC was not the first personal computer there were apples and Atari and commodore pet or even a bunch of companies doing. CPM compatible micro computers for business purposes. But -- was by every measure the most important personal computer launched. Now although not for technical reasons the IBM. IBM designed the architecture but neither the CPU nor the operating system. When may -- IBM PC such a watershed. Was that first came from IBM and every business out there was using IBM technology and relationships with by the sales people. And secondly that it was the first successful open platform from IBM. The PC compatible Lara gave -- compact and hundreds of clone vendors it gave us -- software industry as we know it. And day the vast majority of desktop and laptop computers out there. Our direct descendants of decisions made in 1980 that led to -- 1981 launch of the PC. So we're gonna talk today about how the PC came to be. As well as look at where it is right now and where it's going with two guests who I think you're really going to like listening to. First I'm going to play an interview I recorded yesterday with doctor David Bradley who's one of the engineers on the original IBM PC. And He wrote the bios code. And the code to do Ctrl+Alt+Del. Which is what made -- famous so stand by for that interview it's really lot of fun and then. After doctor doctor Bradley we're gonna talk to Michael Miller. Former editor in chief of PC magazine. And now a senior now does senior VP for technology strategy at Ziff Brothers investments and also a media prolific blogger. Still it PC -- on top it's a personal computing. I've known Michael since 1988 and I can tell you he's one of the most knowledgeable and most deep thinkers of personal computer technology. Out there. So let's get started without the -- -- -- Michael went from -- the -- Michael. And act all right so let's get started with this interview with doctor Bradley that I -- David Bradley that I -- yesterday He retired in 2004 after more than 28 years with IBM. He's been an adjunct professor at Florida Atlantic university in North Carolina State University. He has a Ph.D. in electrical engineering from Purdue. And here's the record interview with doctor David. So Dave Bradley. News retired engineer from IBM. And you're also a professor have been a professor. I've been an adjunct professor of electrical engineering at both -- Atlantic university in North Carolina State University. When I was living in those areas. Well thank you for joining us -- -- were -- as I understand it every five year tour through the memory lane of the invention of the IBM PC. And we have to start obviously with the like it or not -- made you famous which was the invention of Ctrl+Alt+Del which as I understand it -- nine line reset routine that you wrote when you're working on the -- PC -- But before you -- I'm talking about that I have to run this video. Of of you at an event. It's celebrating the twentieth anniversary of the IBM PC ten years ago at the computer history museum in San Jose. -- this check out this video because I just think it's -- it's very. I just try to solve development problems we had a brand new hardware brand new software your best in the stuff out there would hang -- all the so you're always looking at -- turn power off quite a -- -- -- our -- on and the weight or to go through the power on self that -- I'm right -- the -- -- keyboard I think malicious shortcut. Originally intended -- it could be what we would now -- east parade just something we were using and development -- -- available elsewhere. But then the problems people found out about it and that there are trying to throughout had felt somebody's start up. When a program than they had the answer -- put the -- did in it and all police and by magic your programs start. So it wasn't like a five minute job in doing and I didn't realize they're gonna create a cultural icon when -- But but. You know I have to share credit I may have invented but I think bill made -- thanks I. When you use what brand do you want on it. What I meant. Okay. Setting the tone global. So I have to ask you first of all it appears to mean that video -- -- Bill Gates is trying to eviscerate you with his eyeballs did you guys ever make up. -- you'd you'd have to be a little worried about something like that when you're sitting uneasy away from a guy who could afford his own tactical nuclear weapons and yes I. We talked briefly after the event He was fine with it I think He was playing -- -- the why Apple also. Look at the time and I think the best indicator of the resolutions was when I retired in 2004. Ian Steve Ballmer co wrote a very nice letter congratulating me on my career and good luck and retirement solo thing. Well that's nice so and -- measurements and and what did you think I mean after you wrote this. Routine -- as a shortcut. Two turning power off waiting and and turning it back on. And then it was always uses kind of an escape -- for people whose computers that crashed or earlier on as a way to get a computer -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- And then Microsoft made it the shortcut to logging into windows NTI think it was what was your opinion when -- -- of institutionalize. -- -- that way. Well first of all I wasn't really. -- hammered with Ctrl+Alt+Del. It wasn't until about. Fifteen. Years ago that somebody actually came up means that you're the guy were invented Ctrl+Alt bully so I never really felt the same level of ownership -- I do now if and it was the right choice for them because if they allowed Ctrl+Alt+Del. -- the way it normally does it just would've. Turned the machine off while they still have open files and stuff so they had to capture it. And handle -- so acute gracefully exit from windows. Why they used for the -- also I don't know but. You just made sense to them. Her head so let's talk more about the development of the PC because that it is such as an important product to all of us here and lot of our careers are based on this. In many ways. -- called into this project to what were you doing at IBM before this proposed project called -- Yes this project was called -- are actually its first code name was acorn okay. In fact I have a T shirt somewhere that says I survived project acorn you did indeed there -- you do it IBM before use you're calling this project. I was working on a product called the system point three data master -- which used an Intel microprocessor. But -- our own basic interpreter and it was sort of the first step in doing a personal computer the first half step. Where we learned what worked well and what didn't work very well it was -- the first IBM product to use an Intel chip. This was the first design. They used an Intel chip it wasn't the first one announced because we ran general lot of problems in the development of data capture ICs so that it's a menu kind of took that those -- -- that those lessons and built them into the 5050 idea PC. Yes I know we use a lot of the same chips it's got the same -- expansion bus in there'd be a bit. Prototype of the ice a -- a lot of the PC comes from data -- And your drop in particular was when one. Very key part of PC architecture which was -- If He was writing -- Basic device drivers the basic input output system so that the operating system the basic interpreter and other applications didn't have to know how the diskette drive -- are how the keyboard work they could just say right. To this particular sector or tell me the next ski -- hit Europe to -- That's correct you are a -- we would be nowhere without the buyouts or early someplace totally different. I don't think time that exceptional in doing -- many people could've done it I just happen to be in the right place at the right time with the right skills to. Mentally I had done the same thing for data -- Think about it -- so you had so He -- decide to go back briefly to Ctrl+Alt+Del. You had to have the system -- to reset the computer why didn't they just put a button. On the side of the PC the set -- mean even the Apple two if I recall correctly. It had either soft power button -- reset button on it and but -- -- -- -- The reason was twofold first of all. The mechanical structure in -- -- -- did not lend itself through a spot to put in a reset button and -- the second thing was. IBM really care about data integrity and not spraying stuff up so much so that the original PC had a ninth parity bit. In memory. And if you already get a reset button that's the same as the power going off -- you lose all of your data. It's so we didn't wanna make it easy to do this economic sense and so you put it in software you could put some controls in their Richard didn't. Blow things up and intentionally. And chose a set of keys that if you look at a picture of the original keyboard -- far away as you could. Possibly get there's only one control do you want all ski and all the way over on the other side of the keyboard won delete -- So the the the team that built the PC 5150 project was a carve out from IBM it was. Kind of you guys were shunted off to the side or chose to leave -- go to the site because the impression as I've been reading. Was that IBM initially thought they couldn't build a personal computer with their current structure -- -- about how the team managed to do something that was. Fundamentally different from everything else -- IBM had done before. Well we weren't moved. Off to another place we were working in the same building waited on the data master we were a small group -- -- their own lab in their own set -- offices and as we got going the real insulation took place at the upper executive level when somebody would show up from. And corporate and say. I'm in charge of the center of competency for all basic -- in IBM show me watch your product does and I'll tell you whether it's okay our answer was go away don't bother us. And when. That it guy left and a half Andy escalated his concerns didn't when He got to frank carry the CEO -- -- believable alone. They get to produce their own product that was the real protection and insulation that we got. You had awesome air cover most companies don't -- -- anybody's days now well let me -- to deliver a product. Would be acceptable to IBM there was sort of you can do your own thing but when you get done we're gonna look and decide whether it's an IBM product or not. And obviously it was and it became hugely important product for IBM for the entire industry IBM didn't just once came -- didn't divorce that they wholly embraced it became part of the IBM system -- -- you can never be fired for buying IBM became the IBM PC. That's exactly correct and I'm glad that they did like. The product of our work but the decision to to go with the Intel part as the core of the product was. It different enough at IBM in most of the idea computing platform for using IBM CPUs. That. Why go with Intel part why not if they're gonna build an industry built an on an IBM part. This is part of the things we learn from data master -- the Intel. Process -- although was an 8085. In the data master and the support -- worked out really well -- our own basic interpreter Denton. And with the requirement to deliver -- product in one year. That drove -- to off the shelf technology. And we were familiar with Intel had a good working relationship with there tech support guys we had. Microprocessor. Development systems in the lab all ready that we used on data master and think about it. If you're gonna start writing programs for personal computer that doesn't exist yet. What -- cooler unit used to do when you need those microprocessor development systems MDS is great big blue boxes. And so we were -- -- And even though it's a one year development time. My work was essentially done by march of 1981 so my works on six month schedule -- you can't wait around three or four months to pick which process are you gonna use. And gather the tools to develop. Now another decision you made was to use an operating system from a little upstart company called I think was Microsoft. -- -- there were three operating systems initially available for via PC but. Microsoft's. PC DOS became the main one and how does that come to beat -- in a real much over the long history there and -- pictures -- your perspective. And Helm that decision got made and what that how it felt inside IBM to be going to. The small company and in in Washington State to do occur when it's still where they still and -- Arizona Russia and America now -- They -- -- washing or -- at Bellevue Washington on the eighth floor of the one national bank building okay. In downtown Bellevue because I delivered the first prototype to Microsoft -- December 1 1980. Where it got to -- Bill Gates Paul Allen and Steve Ballmer text when we knocked on the door. Yes the reason we chose to go with Microsoft is one of the things we learned in data mastery is writing our own basic interpreter can work out very well. So we're gonna use off the -- top shelf technology. Go to Microsoft get their basic interpreter. Go through CPM digital research. Yet their operating system but CDL He wasn't as -- resident working with us as Microsoft was. So NC PM originally turned us down we went back to Microsoft and Bill Gates was able to work -- an operating system. And the rest is history as they say. I did you guys and a net now I understand that when you you delivered to the than nine boxes of prototype IBM PC. -- On deadline to Microsoft -- to make your part of the contract worried as I understand right. Yet -- the contract actually said you have to deliver before December 1 however December 1 was a Monday and end and by the way the previous Thursday it was Thanksgiving. And we said do you want us to show up on Sunday or Monday morning okay and they said -- -- more Monday mornings are -- are -- really looked at the calendar when it said December 1. So you make your deadline just. Were you aware that on the other side of the contract Microsoft was equally scrambling to perk she or in -- hacked together an operating system that would run on the hardware you were just about to deliver them. I wasn't aware of -- -- I -- deal with Bobble rear who was their -- development manager that was his title. At Microsoft. And they seem to have everything under control -- perhaps they were as good at hiding the all of Leo rustling behind the curtain as we -- I love that. Now it's been a long time and thirty years since the PC came out. Has the lesson to where the lessons from the development of the PC. Do they sink in at IBM and did IBM. Start to develop things in a more. PC like way for future projects after that. I can remember the planning manager -- Larry Rojas saying. Shortly after the -- He had come out says the good news is all of IBM loves -- in the way we develop products the bad news is all of IBM -- -- in the way we develop products. Everybody and IBM -- to do it. Our way because we had such great latitude and flexibility and -- we did. But certainly the people building 360 mainframes and those very large computers -- it's a long history in compatibility. To -- Couldn't quite adopt our methods but changes were made a lot of the other areas can't really speak too much about because I didn't work in them. So what you think about the state of computing right now mean IBM eventually sold off its PC division its its -- fantastic thinkpad positions now in Lenovo a Chinese company. What you think about the way computers are being developed now. But the state of the industry I mean -- -- -- you wanna go with us our registers to know from your perspective. Well development is still product development you still have to design the thing. -- that make sure it's gonna work in all the corners of the environmental conditions. And -- as difficult as it was back in my day even though they've got all these. Simulation message still have to worry about their stuff just like to do the testing. But. Gordon Moore who in 1971. Polish your gonna get twice as many transistors every fifteen every eighteen months. Was remarkably prescient and that continues on. Those additional transistors and the capability they bring allow people to develop all sorts of new products. Didn't exist and several years ago because you couldn't make them. And that's wonderful I enjoy having a Smartphone. I don't use it war. All of my computing tasks when I'm on the road or travelling it's wonderful campaign. So kids these days these new developers today have it easier or harder because of the incredible power at their -- -- -- I imagine it's about the -- The task of developing one for example my daughter's electrical engineer works for IBM develop chips it designs chips. And they have very powerful simulation tools that we did not -- instead we have the -- -- Apple board. In order to test out their original PC. But they have amazingly more complexity. -- did. She's designing chips -- probably have ten to a hundred times more transistors in them then the entire original. PC motherboard didn't even counting all. So they have more powerful tools to -- more complex designs is okay. Well listen Dave Bradley inventor of control lead. And professor as well of -- And electrical engineering wasn't hurt electrical and computer engineering as their departments of all renamed themselves and I went to congratulations. On your invention were happy to talk to you and continued good -- and I guess we'll talk in another five years about controls -- When I -- I'd bet. Will still be with its. Odd that you will there thanks so much for the time. -- -- that was doctor David Bradley inventor of the three fingered salute. Thank you very much your time -- Bradley we're gonna take a quick break and when we come back we'll be talking with Michael Miller former editor in chief PC magazine about the state of the PC to date. And tomorrow. -- -- Okay now we're gonna bring in Michael Miller Michael. PC magazine for a long while I worked with Michael back in 1988 when He was my boss at info world. He is as a set atop the show I'm extraordinarily knowledgeable about the history of computing -- -- has a very sharp eye for what works and technology and why. Michael still writes for the PC magazine cite a great blog or column depending on your age called forward thinking. This week he's been writing a lot of great stories about the thirtieth anniversary of the PC can see a forward thinking. Dot PC mag dot com. Today Al Michaels senior VP for technology strategy exists Brothers investments where He is exercising this incredible skill He has -- putting his is not his money other people's money. To work. Where his office so Michael thank you very much -- time to join us -- -- busy. It -- now let's get into this first -- -- what you think that interview with doctor Bradley. I think it's a great interview -- you know obviously riding the bios is a major part of the PC. And then what teen did is pretty amazing in the sense that they really went from. -- concept that they had in July of 1982. Getting it approved a month later. Actually being announced. -- -- -- So doing it in a year was just a fabulous project doing it in a year at IBM must have been herculean project. But it's really amazing I mean what happened is they allow who ran entry systems division the lab there. -- in 1980 went to the management committee and -- you want a PC. You've -- to let us do it our way or you'll never get it out the door you'll never get what you want. Remember I am really had to projects before -- that came out entry systems division one as the data mastered Dave worked on the other is the IBM 5100. And you look at both of them and they bought it actually not that badly for IBM at the time but there are not what we would call PCs at all there. Bigger systems that ended up being sold to larger companies. Now one of the things that I talk to doctor Bradley about it. As well was the sales projections they had for the PC and they have this great chart which has 26 degrees of accuracy the number of PCs they thought they would sell. And -- none of those numbers were right they were completely off they blew past their five year projection in like the first two months or something like that. But it what is it that -- did that PC -- this IBM products such such -- match. Well I mean that it sold well the first couple months would really took off later when Lotus 123 -- And that really became the differentiator it was it was the spreadsheet everybody had to have so everybody -- happened IBM PC. But the first few much what happened -- -- IBM company that you really trust it's been around for a long time you part of them. -- business person it's now safe to buy PC. In -- business people particularly big business people Apple with this new start -- company. Yet -- was RadioShack. And they just didn't have the same reputation. And everybody else was even less well now who's in the PC business so it was really went IBM got into the market that it was safe for somebody who work for big company. To buy a PC. So now the PC itself -- a two and fifty there were talking about this was not -- technological tour de force I mean this machine had somebody else's chip. Somebody else is operating system so what you're saying is the reason it too cold was the brand stamped on the front of the case. Well the brand was certainly important. But I think you can -- play how important it. Technology decisions war and while it was certainly not the first personal computer it was the first real mainstream computer. That had a sixteen bit process. You know the 80868088. Family. Had come out a year before but that support chips were just coming out if it if they had tried to get out a machine with the sixteen bit process are. Six months earlier. They really wouldn't have had everything working if they had tried to do it. A year later other people would have beaten them to market but at this particular time. It allowed them to get the first real sixteen bit machine out and of course that could do a level of programming. That that existing machines the eight bit systems assists SE BM systems and -- just couldn't get. You could never have gotten Lotus 123. To work on an Apple tip. Now IBM's relationship with. It's vendors that -- well it went into the PC especially Microsoft and those are very important relationships. But eventually Microsoft and IBM diverged it looked like things are going well I remember working with -- info world we were testing out OS to. On a PC. Two were PC junior Kim -- machine and we were I remember being technically. Wowed by this product but it was looking at a -- wait a minute something's going on here something is not right. What happened with this partnership that was supposed to do that build. A new operating system on -- to take over from DOS that was so much more advance -- -- things go wrong. While the two companies had really diametrically. Opposite approach it. Op IBM at the time was trying to get more proprietary they wanted third party vendors to write port. But they didn't want competitors really -- have systems that ran OS to. Actually changed later but at that point that was the case and OS two with this complete grounds up. Rethinking of the -- In the meantime you had Microsoft which -- at long term they needed to do a complete grounds up. Transition but in the meantime -- be okay which is putting a new user interface on top of it. And that new user interface would eventually be called windows. And that was on top of dot. So in some ways the two companies wanted to work together but they didn't want to -- Right and He said -- -- -- just wrote this week said that of the key steel -- licensing deal IBM apparently was expecting Microsoft asked for more money up front or at least a -- or copy royalty. Instead Microsoft wanted the ability to sell -- to other companies. Sounds like -- -- kind of a surprising strategic position from IBM's perspective it was key to Microsoft but with. -- to Microsoft and it wasn't even unusual for Microsoft I -- Microsoft's business. Up until that point was they were selling languages. And basic -- Tran -- all. To the -- to the makers are of personal computers and -- how it started with commit to health care but they had versions for. Just about every CPM system out there. They even had versions for Apple. And they were very happy selling languages to multiple vendors. And at that point Microsoft made most of its money not by selling to end users but to selling. To these computer companies which in turn would -- What happened to seek him I remember when when the IP and PC was was coming out there were a bunch of I think they were Z eighty radiating can't remember what CPM boxes and northstar was one I was working computer -- selling northstar computers. And then IBM came out and and PC PM machines that which was the first. Moral less cross platform operating system for Mike was just kind of withered away. -- CBM was clearly. Becoming the business standard that. It was an eight bit operating system on machines you're talking about most which ran. There's dialogues eap which was sort of -- -- Version of the 8080 chip that doubt Intel had done earlier -- something -- -- designers went over there. And it was very successful but it was it eight bit systems. The world was moving -- sixteen -- And CPM didn't move quite as fast does it want it to most importantly of course when IBM came calling. They said they apparently look at the nondisclosure agreement. And said this is a ridiculous non disclosure agreement and wouldn't sign it. So I'd be able went away and and they called Microsoft up again and said okay the guy to -- -- would have an operating system doesn't have what what can you do it. And that's one stop pretty much decides to get into the operating system. And one of the key differences here you could actually -- -- PM on a 5150 but you had to pay a lot more after paying. And -- several thousand dollars for PC system spending. I believe that PC MC PM was ten times in about ten times more five or ten times more than PC DOS right. It was forty dollars for dot 240 dollars for sepia -- -- And that I think what what part of it but even more -- it was. IBM was clearly much more behind DOS -- -- DOS was what they had agreed they would do they later said okay we'll let other operating systems run on it. But at that point they had convinced. That guy who wrote this -- -- the guys who writing easy rider at the guys who were writing peachtree accounting. That they should write their applications for the PC on top of -- Now policy PM guys could move and affect. Eventually many of that did but that took longer it wasn't ready as early in the process. Now while the 5150 PC was clearly a watershed we're talking about today I would argue that. It was the Compaq. Computer the PC compatible computer that was even more -- a watershed in the PC industry. It. Let's talk about the Compaq and about the clone market and that IBM will lose control market or did they give it away. Unless a little about I mean clearly after the IBM PC comes out. You immediately have a number of people who say well they bought off the shelf parts I can buy off the shelf parts and build their own PC. Most of which are little companies. That you won't even remembered. What Compaq did that was better different was they looked at the market said. Well not only can we copy it we can add a feature that people want which is the ability to take it with it was up portable. Which. At the time there were no IBM compatible portable there with the odds are one and the -- pro to which -- -- machines. But. There word X 86 compatible. So I -- comes out with the compact portable and they make sure it's as compatible as possible. You know at that point all of us would take flight simulator and we take Lotus 123 and see if they would work. And on some machines they would in some machines they went on a contact everything worked and that said okay this is the standard and we can innovate with in the by adding things like portability. And that's how that market cap. Five -- what's going to come out with an open architecture which you can argue they had to do to get to market. Then they probably had to innovate faster than they ended up doing. -- part of what happened is. IBM made a couple of choices on what the follow a lot would be the idea PC one with the PC XT which is basically PC with a hard drive which was very successful. And the other with the PC junior the cheaper PC. But. Nobody liked it just never succeed instead of it come up with a portable at that time really early. There might not have been as much room in the market for com. So how -- speaking of portables this move for several years to the development of the thinkpad IBM. Eventually decided that there are gonna be serious about PC hardware and about leading in in terms of design and other features make him -- with a line of thinkpad. Portable computers -- -- computers including the actually gorgeous butterfly with the keyboards that split in two. I just. It'll misty thinking about that -- Amish. And then eventually. After years of at least critical success IBM sells its PC business including -- thinkpad line to a Chinese manufacturer Lenovo. Which we can talk about for hours it does this mean that -- -- kind of -- up a post PC era. Well I wouldn't call -- a post PC here the PC isn't going away. It's clear that -- -- going to be lots of different devices accessing. Information. And -- Smartphones tablets PCs televisions. So the PC isn't going away is the PC the center of the business today. Probably not you would say the center is probably Internet applications. -- You know there's a mixture of different things -- not what happened for IBM is the PC business turned into a relatively low margin. An idea was you step high margin products and decided that they would be better off trying to sell services and support. Around the PC. And they actually you -- you can go to an idea -- today if -- big company and order Thinkpads they'll get out before -- to Lenovo but. IBM would rather be doing consulting and services which are much higher margin businesses and software -- I'll. And not sell what has become pretty commodity hardware. Now speaking of which that's gonna talk about. The consumers nation. Of like -- which I think is the of the resurgence seeking of of -- brands byte magazine is back online. And they're pushing this whole thing consumers nation of -- One of the reasons that them. IBM was so -- in in launching a personal computer and calling and -- a computer is that. Personal people were bringing these these micro computers into the workplace to do work that -- couldn't get down on the mainframes and minis. And we've -- the same thing with the iPhone -- -- -- circling around the Blackberry the -- and so on. How does the the consumer market affected business computing. And vice Versa what's the interplay now a big enterprise IT departments and consumers who are -- so. That's -- with technology now. Well I mean clearly there's speak inner play between exit. Consumers come into the office and they expect the same kind of features that they're used to and our personal -- so for instance. People may like your iPhone they want to get their email on an iPhone. If they like a tablet they may want to get it on a tablet in me like an Android machine. And they almost don't wanna be told what to do meanwhile on the other side I T says yeah that's great. But we want to make sure the information is secure we want to make sure we can control stuff. And there's always a tension between what end users want and what IT want between convenience and security. And so you're always gonna see some that. Right now the pendulum is swinging towards the consumer because there are all of these new applications. That people are using whether they be social networks. Or they be in an -- tablets. And. Companies are trying to figure out how they work at me remember no op AIT department ever went out -- all we want personal computers -- and. Early -- that's not what they said they said well what we have to Apple will take idea but we really don't want them. And today people are saying and you don't know I T departments at all I want linked it. But business users are using it. -- and what they'll do is a tell you can have your product acts if you put. This password system on it and make it almost I mean it's not always the case -- in many cases IT becomes. It becomes a fight I -- get it this too much anyway. We can top -- yeah AS RS there -- Now what I I do close with one thing here now your job now is to evaluate emerging technologies and how they are reflected in emerging businesses. What TUR the most exciting areas of opportunities. For you as an investor but also -- new businesses new companies people building new products -- -- -- think the real opportunities are for for big world changing business that's. I think there's three big trends that are changing business. The first is sometimes called mobile social local which is we have all these devices with us they know where we are they know what our friends are. And what are we gonna do without. I think that's a -- I think cloud computing of course is. You know really changing how applications are written how data is stored and -- have a big impact on IT department. And -- -- to move towards big data. Where we have these enormous databases in real time predictive analytics. Trying to get -- sell you more stock broker. Any final words Michael's been great talking to you. Buy it yeah it's been interesting to see that pretty much got architecture of -- PC. As its continue to this day I mean sure we're not running eight bit systems are eight busses were running. In -- 32 and moving toward 64 bit stop. Where. Running new versions of operating systems but the concepts. -- platform that was open to anybody that you could add different peripherals that you could connect different things. And that you could get software from a variety of sources remains the way we run computing to back. Well I hope it stays that way as we move into a world where people are tightening down the screws and and a Google becoming the the new Microsoft it's -- -- -- really fascinating change and I am. I love work and -- -- -- tell you guys because com it is never. Ever born there's always something changing fundamentally. So Michael thank you so much -- time really appreciate it you can find Michael's great work at forward thinking dot PC mag dot com. And again Michael thank you very much for the time. -- -- Thanks everyone for watching reporters' roundtable now this show has a whole bunch of related links to which I'm gonna put up online you can -- -- Cnet.com slash reporters dash roundtable -- podcasts. A -- of -- com slash -- roundtable podcast. To get all the links we've done a -- -- -- really actually stores and thirty fab birthday of the PC. You can follow me on Twitter and RA FE for all the stuff find out what's going on -- sending email -- thing about this. Show and have if you have ideas from others that Rafe at cnet.com we'll see you next time the reporters' roundtable. Thanks everyone --