Reporters' Roundtable: Can anyone top the iPad? AnandTech, CNET experts debate.Today is iPad 2 launch day, so we're talking about the tablet industry. Is Apple's tablet platform unstoppable? Will developers give it up for Android? Does Microsoft still have a shot? And what about HP and RIM? Watch the discussion.
-- -- -- -- Hi everyone I'm -- needle in -- -- this is reporters' roundtable is our weekly -- Deep dive into a single tech topic and today it's a big day for Apple fans the iPad two is out there people actually lining up. And -- around the block but on the block to get this new product. Of course today is also another important day we are reporting today on the big eight point nine magnitude earthquake that struck Japan. There is a lot of news on at CNET news.com on what's happening there -- on everything from the Japan Japanese nuclear industry's reaction to this. As well as what companies tech companies like Google are doing it the world and formed. Of the effects of this quake and help people and find what's going on in comic and help so for more information on that go to www. News.com for. All the updates that work -- recovering continuously. The back the issue at hand today -- -- is iPad two day people are lining up. And we want to talk today about what Apple gets right. With its tablets that other companies historically most notably. Microsoft have not Microsoft in the tablet industry for years but they have nothing compared. Comparable to the iPad or the iPad two we're going to be talking about that they were too great guests first of all here in the studio got Josh loans and this CNET news.com Apple beat reporter Josh thanks for joining us -- and -- And dialing in from Raleigh, North Carolina out. Annan to should be from a non tech one of my favorite deep tech analysis cites thanks so much her. Making the time to join us and the dominant site. Thank you so much that sure so let's get started here. Josh we have to ask you because you're there you were there. You actually left the building -- mother ship and you walked down the street to the Apple Store what's the mood like and -- San Francisco -- Apple Store. It's actually really -- I've seen a lot of lines last heroes and Palo Alto for that launch and you know people in camp in mountain. Robert Scoble was there with much people actually at -- a generator overnight in an apartment -- -- like. Like camping out there and and -- him Cisco news that about a hundred people this Maureen I am. A lot people playing cards one -- reading newspapers they kidnapped them on their laptops that's not just currently in for the sort open. A hundred people not thousands of people and but not yet but not zero. Now I wasn't like the Verizon iPhone launch now -- and -- is thinking is that no one had spent the night there. In that was the case the last -- is it was in the morning there so lot of people you know got super early this morning that the first ones were -- -- 3:34 am. -- going to be there'll. But it -- they don't start selling -- later rate the 5 o'clock if -- -- -- so that's cruel yet. All right well you know let's talk a little bit about the market for tablets Apple sold according to some reports -- one -- in RBC capital. Fourteen point eight million ipads in 2010 -- Wall Street and tech experts all we're trying to forecast what Apple's going to be doing in 2011 and beyond with tablets forecasts are all over the map RBC capital think shipments will past sixty million per year by 2014. And that tablets that puts tablets at 12% of overall computing shipments not just Apple Tablet all tablets tablets plus Smartphones. They say it will make up nearly two thirds of all computing devices shipped between -- 64%. On on what is happening in computing. That. Yet. So I think we've seen. This is no different than trend -- -- -- back in 2005. Paul -- and the Intel developer forum got up and that -- for the first time in US retail history. We shipped more notebooks and a. The tablets merely an extension of the notebook and and the Smartphones also an extension and a and I think it's convenient right the form factor Rick Sands I and at this point I don't know that these devices -- replaces a notebook. But it surely does augment it. And it -- printed on paper conveniently it's economics. So it just you agree that the tablet it's kind of the next step in the continuum of smaller and more convenient computing from desktop to laptop. Two. Tablet or is it a different thing. Yeah I put -- more than bike with a Smartphone and and that's primarily because -- the apps and we see now with the iPhone and iPad a lot of the apps that make it really kind of cool and useful. Are the things it may be started on start phones and to Scott Baker. And is that county's case where you really kind of get comfortable with using this this form factor where apps work a certain way button you get the multitasking a certain way you just wanna have -- on something a little bit bigger. I think that's what you know big part of but -- iPad -- big success is that people very comfortable without platform. He sees -- kind of thing beginning with Android. Especially with this new version with the Treo some as you know things that couldn't be done on the smaller screen -- -- devices. Kind of proliferating and the speaker size. Now one of the things that Steve Jobs is -- of things that you know thanks to the tablets. In particular the iPad we are entering the post PC era. Are Stephen shank land writing from premier said. Know -- they could differ and it's an interesting point -- -- -- talk about the continuum. You can kind of see the technologically. It's a natural evolution. But where while laptops for many people replaced desktops. RR is it actually -- totally separate. I still think there's a lot of pain points in terms of actually getting some of the stuff you can do and PC done on these tablets and some degree that's changing like for example -- the new imovie for iPad it's this really good example of of this application it. It really works well on the desktop and it taken in kind of shrunk it down and made it work with multi touch and kind of -- -- -- -- -- to really make it. Feel like more of something you can do with your hands -- but that doesn't really work as well with things like office apps and spreadsheets and and some of things that people are used to doing and even email -- -- -- don't wanna spend all day typing on email iPad I've done it before they a lot of people about it it's not something you can view. Every day eight hours at that right yes -- -- -- -- PC -- laptop. That process on do you think we'll ever get to the point where people can replace their their notebooks or laptops with a tablet computer. Well so and I don't think I think the problem a lot of us have is that we're we're kind of looking at the market as. Davis is what looks like today. You know I don't view the tablet as anything other than a PC because uploaded right right now it's just -- really really slow easy. But if you look at -- -- at which the harbor and spotted it yet seen all that technology. The -- which that's involving -- actually on a steeper curve than what we haven't desktops -- you're getting. Significant generational performance improvements nearly. Whereas on the PC it's usually -- two years to get back performance. And what I think we'll see over the next five years as the sort of convergence point where. You kind of happened at the moment right where -- like hey I can actually do everything need to do you want and then -- becomes one of form factor -- a question form factor. There -- a lot of people industry to believe that ultimately. Mainstream PCs so everything saying I'm -- on below. At some point the next five to ten years all mainstream PCs effectively becomes -- And what you do is you sit down and ask you doctor -- you've got a keyboard and a and a wireless display. That that kind of takes over and when -- ready -- go alone is Whitacre sparked government and does not monitor and -- -- kind of guns hitting them and you get the same experience of how. An and I believe that the tablet can definitely fallen -- that -- things for category. Now. That's -- that's a compelling and and uninteresting vision and but. Interestingly it's. Not a new one. We've heard this before from Microsoft in particular that that was the original that vision of the tablet was that when you wanted to go portable you would have this little device you can. -- -- -- -- And when you want it to work you would put on your desk -- -- keyboard all that stuff. Which brings me to the other topic. What does Apple know about tablets that the rest of the industry didn't -- doesn't still know what did Apple get right with the iPad one. And the very concept they have for tablet computing Josh or on -- Earth's articles have been you know I think it's that it's a comfort issue in and like that before it's that it's an extension of what people -- -- on the iPhone and other devices like it. I'm going to its -- to form factor. And down you know -- they -- it with the with the original introduction. Earth and this is actually couple press Cisco. On the -- -- picture of a laptop and someone holding their hand out and touch the screen thing that just doesn't work in -- right and so it's that. -- that can experience -- get used -- things and a flat panel. And having that kind of experience were you know you're working on this this kind of ski. But it's not it's not trying to beat the mouse and keyboard experience right it's it's own thing. And I think you're getting to something that's very interesting because. The Microsoft vision was to take windows. And make it and take the desktop and make it into a tablet -- you have just said. Was -- what Apple did was they took the phone. In and they converged on the same idea but from a different direction they made the smaller big instead of the bigger small on -- what do you think of that is that they're. The way they did it. Well and think -- a couple things get look at one if you just -- U line from all non Microsoft is actually the first to teach us that. To tackle a new market tackle any device you need a different you -- While we got that media right the reason that it TVs connected -- your he HC BC's current energy needs didn't really work in the past you needed. Had to be you want you don't -- -- their answer to what that's that's how they built a ten -- -- line it's. I feel that that's what Apple done with Iowa right when they introduced -- type on a bill to the very very efficient you like -- the screen real estate. Well I think Apple would be successful as they were one of the only companies that -- in -- space. That really owned and controlled boat harbor side -- -- If you look at HP prior -- acquisition. At best they can just -- on the hardware side. Write Microsoft wasn't gonna do a special one operation -- -- -- them. And investigators later had a in some stuff like that on top of what an OS that -- -- but. And that can only get you so far right Apple can -- Harbour map based on opera it can. Bring in features on a software roadmap according to what it wants to -- and hardware side. I think that synergies really really important especially. You know over the past ten years. If you're you OS vendor is someone that it's making a ton of money has very pleased with their state in the industry. Which Microsoft was during the the windows. So and I think that's really fundamentally -- -- Apple and. This idea that look they just. Waited paid attention to how the market went and and waited for the right. I guess convergence of all software hardware and and kind of put it altogether in the -- I don't think it's it's genius I don't think it's anything that's that unbelievable I just think that they had the right components integrates operates at great -- talent. And a lot of other a lot of their competitors don't control one of those -- he. -- John John Gruber of daring fireball that this about the iPad two. And about the iPad in general he says when it comes to developing. And here's a quote. They take something small simple and painstakingly. Well considered. They ruthlessly cut features to derive the absolute minimum core product they can start with. They polished those features then to a shiny intensity. That is what Apple -- I thought those of a brilliant summit this summer elation -- the way Apple launches new products and the market. Does anybody else get this and is this the right model for launching a new platform. Typically -- target a -- it. I -- it's gonna say I think that is very true but Apple host icon. Right if you look at what the iPhone was launched they really did cut a lot of features out a lot of people complain really can't -- and an -- on the. And -- they need the ten things that they did really well and make them work there are well and I definitely think that that's true for Apple it's it's. It's viable strategy I think other people get that back again I don't think. There are many companies that have the sort of control that -- -- bread eggs even if you get that right if you're down and you get that this is the right way of doing things. We can do about -- you don't develop DOS. Right and what you do if you're in -- cheese right and you have Leo and you get that acting when it's under the current example that. They quite possibly build -- smoother slicker U lightning Apple's and a. But they don't control the hardware so what -- you have you have a great. Offered delivery system and a great package -- there and and you don't really have -- You know I think companies get this I don't think it's rocket I think. The right companies are aligned actually. Felt like he got a bunch -- very frustrated product managers and engineers out there than if they understand this but they just can't do yet. So the iPad two is out. Talk about that real briefly and -- and I do wanna talk about the other players in the tablet market and what they're doing right or wrong. So the iPad two it's an evolution obviously it's not a brand new product is not yet another form factor yet another OS. What's important about it that's different than a wire people lining up for this product which looks to me just like an evolution of the last iPad. Yet while I -- this before and and I think a lot of people I talked to a lot of friends. You know when I first got the first iPad. -- you know I really like it when is it you know I know Apple's back and you know like they are singularly unique cultural things down that the version -- always better fix the bugs. It was a ton of people I talk to you it's like they're just -- waiting for this to happen. And now here it is so I think. -- really peak sales primarily because of that these people -- -- on the fence about first generation. And now they wanna get the -- just as -- -- -- couple extra things that they noted that this problem the first one's been fixed in and I guess what you can see with this thing what is it. It didn't really have a lot of problems externally people didn't complain about. Think they -- -- and they -- SD card -- they -- cameras and an Apple delivered on some of those things and we have cameras and that's great. But I mean we we kind of expected that -- it so that that we think is is as good. As good as it has to be for the next generation product via I think they're on like -- and like Apple's said you know it's in its unveiling last year's end in in have to do much it's. His competitors are still an event that that price point -- it's a little bit higher and -- -- -- products aren't there yet you know there's still leading the pack rate they don't have to do -- much. So and on and when it comes to tablets and Apple vs the world. Do features matter I mean if you if you stack up the the tech specs. Even the software features of the iPad vs the competitors from. Microsoft Google HP and rim. Technically doesn't really stack up it does that matter. So that's the thing that actually can use I saw this with a lot of the initial coverage on the iPad -- what's -- oh yeah Apple doesn't -- backs and and I think. And it just told me that Apple. The move to a dual core processor I'm guessing it's cortex canines which would put in an equal when it you know when and -- shipping and integrity of which is -- Motorola's him. And they ate lead product every one in GP reports write this thing's gotta -- -- -- X -- and YouTube which is. You basically half of what's in that the next PlayStation Portable right I think it's it's. It's a very very powerful new. And I think they actually exceed competitors' there right it's much faster than on the deep inside that anything. -- chip. -- the coming months here. You know I think the things that it is missing yet missing flash it's missing. Those to me aren't what I considers facts right there they're not. They're not in -- parts of -- the underlying hardware then do I think that I would like higher resolution display yes. But if you look at the zoom. -- I appreciate iris display but it also has much worse black levels and -- says there's a trade up there. So fast I don't think it's it's this idea that -- Apple is competing on specs I just don't think it's it's ballot I think they are competing on specs it is not really talking about. There -- their competing on specs made for -- -- that -- a competing in a whole different level yet and when I wrote this story about -- music it was missing. A lot of feedback -- you know that's nice that would be cool but the majority people probably don't need that -- evening. Something like nasty parts on its public an example that it sounds really -- -- but even if you have into the camera attachment types stupidly thought. And -- may be about three times I take pictures all the time it's just not. It's not something that I I consider useful. Thing and I mean he would keys every week the -- -- -- it the app well I think. -- that is the the harbor and opera currently up yet. Right you can understand you can envision a scenario where if you got -- sufficiently powerful tablet. Say running Photoshop. That he would make. Just a heck of a lot of sense -- a -- partners you -- -- but -- -- air decent manipulation uploaded to Flickr or a peed -- you know whatever it is. And and go -- there and I think one thing Apple usually does is they don't really intriguing features until. They feel like they can deliver on all fronts. On -- my friend. -- -- -- -- -- -- so thunderbolt is -- and people aren't right. That you need to have wonderful devices out there to eventually you know people -- -- what Apple's planning to do with. Kind of -- -- that's -- replacement but an SD card would simply enable someone to plug something in that would kind of be a disappointment at the. Then you're not gonna be able to -- great photo editing there -- What I'm looking forward to -- sign -- here is. There's this new Wi-Fi part of a Wi-Fi standard point plate or ad -- -- -- different from an older version of a report called. By -- Wi-Fi direct yet when you get I'd buy SD cards that work with iPad. That'll be all and then -- who needs an SD NSB slot you just take picture -- of bloom over the wireless. That's window all right. Now moving on let's talk about Google in the Android tablets -- -- how does Chrome OS -- in in the tablet battle what is that its impact on tablets on Apple. And what's the best Android -- that's -- zoom isn't it. Okay -- and what's so good about the zoom in and how does it stack up. An account yet billboards and on the. I mean if he -- it it's it's such a huge step over what they have now with with the gingerbread. And added. We're using these things -- gingerbread teach you can become three which as you know the huge next thing and it's a lot of the fit and finish right there with this kind of experiences. And having almost a three dimensional tablet desktop with. Little things that glow in and I school clock and a very. For free -- -- it's a very kind of a software which is very you know so far it's been kind of don't call bland and -- hasn't had as much character in in this -- gives it that. But it's also kind of and very interesting. User experience mean there there hasn't anything like that. And on specs you know -- huge the huge device it's still not less expensive than the iPad now. -- interest and so this thing about Apple being the premium brand -- pay 20% credit the label. No longer true on the tablet so now -- not as -- for -- thing you felons there. But that's gonna change right so Asus announced an -- resume if you compare. You know NAND capacity and capacity it's. Like 800 vs 730 -- so it's not a huge difference. But Asus announced actually it's CES this year they said they're gonna do 39916. -- like buying. Tegra two based on Apple. So you know they will be competitive and actually more competitive Apple. Do you think terms if you do you think of because of that price difference they will sway some people that might have bought an. An iPad away. You know. Historically what -- that is. If you use Android -- -- -- you'll find that you prefer the way -- works committee. Any compatible or is that line a little bit. Simply because it it kind of takes Android and all things to love Android and and -- Kind of -- like feel to it not -- -- -- -- but in that it's it's kind of got that bad extracting new line that's a little more it is risky but at its. I get more device your clients and and you know I definitely think that -- nine -- very good price point for the right so. I still believe that in -- -- -- was -- Android users are gonna commutes to doctorate. I do believe that the use segments -- the importance of the marketers still fairly split around but there's always -- -- -- but little. Now one of the big issues for the success or failure of any platform is whether developers adopted and in the case of of Apple and their tablets they're talking what 65000 -- iPad apps more. I don't know what the number is on -- -- what goes through developers mine would enlist your Rovio maker Angry Birds and you have enough money now 42 million in the distant venture funding to develop on every platform under the sun. You have to make a tough choice what platform to go on to. What goes through developers mine when -- looking at say IOS first Android and and so many other tablet platforms. Like it's getting easier than it was before for example yet lot of development tools let you kind. Developed the thing on 11 platform and expand to another Apple Finley didn't used to even allow the use of cross platform developer tools that picture of it but I think they can realize that hey this might get it snapped its Wendell on and -- and -- You know -- ideal ethnically new flourishes in there. I think it's also -- becomes -- -- -- rights to due to the marketplace with. With certain amount of -- potential buyers are do you go to use the one and again flats and re can be potentially bigger bigger fish this -- on right and I think what we've seen with a lot of lot of apps and please from the movement from from summing it starts on Ohio that's and he knows he went on -- -- or Android. Is it a lot of the big stuff. Whose very quickly her for instance Angry Birds right appointed -- and -- a reasonable amount of time announcement windows phone seven and everywhere. From the smaller apps can start often in a place like. Apple's App Store and move off. -- similar problem. In the old days you can do that there. In fact I had to agree with I take issue with the 65000 numbered just because no one has 65000 apps installed and -- device and I like. To me I still think that the number one killer app or tablets is still web browsing followed -- Right like I think the other apps there. They're nice additions to it and I -- thinking you have those. But I think people that are looking are deciding between regulated and -- -- or do I just you know keep my notebook it may be at this the arsenal. I think ultimately they wanna browse the web and email on it and you know maybe there's a dozen or so apps on -- -- they wanna play when it. Pat and I think in in that case you can actually make a very very compelling argument for running on the back the web browsing experience. That you know it is very very buggy right now but it it's actually superior to what Clark looks far. You know everybody. Air everybody's different but I do take a slight issue with that in that you know -- that my own use pattern of the my iPad is that were I rarely use the browser I use it to read a lot of web content but I prefer the apps because they have a better experience -- so I agree with. Great I I is welcome -- yes but the question is. What's the overlap there yet and I still think web browsing is very very it's still one of the killer apps not -- killer app for tablet. Now -- there's an app for everything. Not yet -- and then -- then you know and I yeah you're right nobody has 65000 apps on their own individual. You know tablet I have. Only 30000 a month. Let's see so other developers in this there are companies in the space that matter Microsoft. Windows eight is coming in 2012 apparently that there's -- pervert tablet version. The next version when news Microsoft elected -- thank you very much the next -- the next version when it. -- so are we have to talk about Microsoft now. Like is long that the technology industry is not jets today and tomorrow it is the year from now five years -- and music from now. I realize this is asking for the consider what -- variables we can't possibly -- what do we think that Microsoft's prospects are in the tablet space over the next day. Three to five years. I think they're gonna ample audible does right now they're they're strategy so far it's an -- we had tablets. But they're running windows and windows is not. A tablet operating system -- it's. Office at the tablet but -- as you as the -- why the likes the idea underlying OS may appeal for some uses for doctors for -- people trucks and workers you know there's -- There's doing different use cases Microsoft is very happy to point them out and personas very valley right you get windows users small form factor. And touch things in there -- -- rhetoric nation. If there rate but what users once they want something where. -- built for that in in his isn't built for that just yet. Selected in doing. Very clearly it's taking windows phone seven that kind of touch based experience and kind of pushing out and instead they're doing that they -- that it. But it seems like that would be the easiest way right and it's already built for arm processors. It's very touch friendly there's there's a huge marketplace -- -- -- It's getting there. In developers are -- -- for balance and that's anything but most viable option and XP years. But. Windows next. Might -- in tablet based features in India with what's in it so you think the Microsoft would have even. Put that much effort -- tablets had not been for the iPad. I you know that's hard to say it right there and on what he what he think go to Microsoft's prospects. I am in a contemporary get a the next street partners. But -- -- this -- and created that. -- Microsoft can do you like bank. And if you so what is on that device. News and I noticed that device you actually feel it is actually very well it's really -- I I think a lot of people forget you know also mentioned into the section that the -- on tablet whatever you call that the last game. Is at least a tenure game. And I don't think. You know Microsoft could have rush something out here with witness -- and as a base. And maybe got the million sales are routinely manage don't think reworked embers and the idea stick around -- right. And I think ultimately there is convergence that happened between these mobile glasses -- the desktop -- So it is -- for -- used to think that -- you'll have a version of windows eight or whatever you wanna call. Bet that'll actively work on on -- hardware earth these ultra mobile devices. And I think that's what we'll see eventually at some. But hey again I think they have very very good prospects -- everyone honestly. Can emerge victorious and that's right I think the one thing people forget is the leaders at the beginning of the PC era. We're not the leaders at the end of it and I think people forget that as we look at how -- -- -- -- and tablets fixable. Are looking -- saying nothing that he's got will fail but that you know it's on again into Adobe the successful. This put that to the test little thought experiment a look at some of the other vendors in the space HP which acquired palm. And and rim which has Blackberry Playbook. What. Could today three to five years from now be in the spot that -- now holding out for Apple and Google. You know I think more carefully of HP between two companies I think beyond the playbook is is a very exciting. Device on paper and -- in the early views of it have been really compelling in terms of the things -- can do. But in terms of that that kind of vertical and end user experience and that. An idea of having that device ecosystem and make HP's kill it and if -- if you look today at eight. -- preview from from last month it was just it was kind unbelievable. Some aviation it was happening this idea of having you know if you have any HP phone in your pocket you using an HP touchpad tablet you get a phone call picking up on there. And not having to pick up your phone you know having that conversation on a tablet things like that its its -- taking away some the pain points. And using these devices. And having multiple devices from the same thing -- You're describing a vertically integrated. System that here for only Apple has been able to build where they have both the hardware and the software in the whole experienced -- right. While that vehicle -- if he can pull at all -- they have the leadership coupled plant and also their longer term vision and getting them the palm webos. In two directions on but he'd do webos it in -- Into computers which it it's that it's gonna happen almost as these next year and -- and you have this this ecosystem -- A phone tablet in it Peter running -- -- its -- -- and -- on the -- there. The Mac OS. And seven -- nerds are in line. But we're not there yet -- it but that's where it's -- -- -- -- Yeah I am and I think it really is anyone's getting -- and a huge and webos. I'm actually surprised that. You know it's been this long in this -- features in elements -- you I haven't just been. -- duplicated elsewhere. I do you think they have excellent chances and I think HP got point -- has the the right ingredients the question is whether HP whether or not H -- we direct company do the best with the green appeared on good assortment. I -- and still you know my number one complaint about what the last was really that. -- mean it'll -- -- software optimization on performance tuning. And and that's the same take -- Apple that debate that -- -- -- back in Barcelona last month but Anthony's. City it remains to be seen how much -- happen between now when it launches. You know I go back to a quote that air -- remain deep. What's called clean use like the best way to lose -- it's not show up. And I think that's just what we're -- court -- were waiting for HP webos and rim and all these guys show up. -- and once you show up it's it's a matter of maintaining a regular cadence. Right because we're gonna get to a certain point where everyone's integrated so well and everyone has produced such a polished. Piece of software hardware combination that little determine -- your biases and the -- grow. But right now know and Apple's really the only company that -- kind of annually come out with these very large call auctions. And Google's and Eric Berger quickly to get to the point where they haven't. Medina and I think it -- the first example. But we just need to see more of that companies like HP program you think rim -- it can be a major player. Yeah I don't think -- -- and what -- that -- the leaders in the PC space early on where the ones that want. So acting I think anything weird thing here and is also -- -- -- talk about. Yes. About it. Which -- -- within as they think that it's you know it's Intel's -- what they were Nokia. I mean that's it's it's a it's still very very very behind competition. But hey it's it's still American -- here. Aren't your mother a -- comes -- -- today and says sunny. I wanna buy -- -- tablet. -- and recommend. And united Iraq on mattered if she likes the -- then -- -- -- get an -- I mean I think I really think it's personal preference I think some people want -- -- and some people want -- you can take a little bit more and I think that's ultimately what separates violence from Android. Bigger -- I think right now Android. The honeycomb tablet to -- you know it's beautiful it's functional it's powerful the last long time and hopefully a lot of software updates that -- use leopard software. But my gut you know why I'm an iPad user and I like it and I think it it's easier platforms. I'm preaching to issue guardian and ecosystem. -- so that L. I will safe for me personally -- Like I bought the iPad one and it just it's my best instincts and partners like it doesn't actually do anything -- And and -- -- to operate I need to know what any back had a power. But I did on myself being more productive than -- -- I find that the notification system and the multitasking. You -- -- just better. And I was hoping that Apple would address those and -- or they didn't and hoping -- that they'll fix that correspond. -- even multitasking on the biggest and a different -- are now because I think Apple does a pretty good job. But if you -- and use it with bunch of different thing T nine run ended in the memory limitations and and it's just it's not quite there and not all the developers. Do good multitasking implementations on that OS you. -- Not -- about right it's like right now on your desktop you wanna switch between apps it's one click in if you wanna do the same under I lessons. You double tap the home things that -- -- -- and one more tactic application anymore. Yet they were supposed to have a four finger swipe to switch apps. We had seen previews of that read I mean they had a problem with that and why it's not -- for three updated his a lot of applications you know -- you. Will analyze a few and to -- it manages. -- five finger gestures and if you take that away instantly me consistent feature you limiting how many touch -- -- and applications have something like a multiplayer game. We have four people tapping -- hungry hungry hippos -- there's an app for that. And if you have -- you you really that. I gotta get that make it do it if they are moving on yes if you have people doing that you warnings that. Accidentally have someone you know finger painting like your child instantly on the mail app -- that I think the difficulty -- how to make apps kind of understand. That -- kind of command in an -- and user interface feature. -- now they have a camera may -- -- -- tries really hard thing watchers click to operate rules pulls him to refresh rate but but but. Are right so what about the holiday period it's it's still early in the year but that we got holiday period that although retailers probably obviously think -- right now we've got a new iPad which will be all of the iPad to be the holiday iPad. Will have zoom will have. HP touch -- what -- the sellers going to be what -- predictions. -- -- -- -- you know -- I think. ABB B. Galaxy Tab. You know that's still it's gonna be a little bit and Alter product centric product right. And I definitely think the obviously -- into all I think the touch pads you -- to be big head I think similar things of the playbook that's you know that simply being aimed -- -- that business product -- gecko. So it's hard to factor in holiday sales for that -- -- I guess what we I think the -- united isn't gonna do pretty well the next couple months Alan watts. Yeah but I'd agree with that -- I think. You know it's it's very easy to say that Apple's sole line of pocket tunes and I think that's just gonna happen. You know I'm -- yours he would the other looks -- you with an -- -- what they -- exams than those -- you know everything's actually -- -- the next couple months here and really find out which one is. Honeycomb tablet. And I think the playbook -- the touch they're both wild cards. You know we can get them. By June -- at their -- on the market by then I think you know we'll have a better indication. Price war that's what I wanna say also I mean this is -- were -- -- for some of these tablets today actually have a three G in and some of them to forty modem. I think one of the defining factors in a couple years is -- the data plan in and what the carriers do -- on the price active enough for me it's it's like if you're buying an iPad two yet to pick between really crappy game plan to be on ethnic. 25 bucks per gigabyte from Verizon like that's that's that's -- then I think people are gonna put up with -- essentially when they're using these has been computers right and you get the applications that eat more via so I think that's gonna need to be addressed. At least in the US and not your -- -- a plan -- not very good point -- final words on a. I'm no I mean I just I think this is a very exciting space and I think. The rate of -- we're seeing here I mean it's -- really on a twelve month. I'm not just for the products but also pretty handle hardware and that's what makes it -- signing you know we'll be talking. Within the next four years. You'll have tablets that are really really good for -- Entry level are really really low end notebooks -- -- and that's that's kind of exciting. -- -- Well thank you very much your time guys be sure to check out and on tech. Eight and -- and the -- -- CHR comets are really good site for tech news and mostly deep analysis I'd recommend it. Josh thank you also for joining us again this week -- on -- rescue. -- -- stuff can be found on the front page a lot of CNET news.com here on the Apple beat now so you gotta get I got the story gets yet to -- If you want to follow. More or you know more about what's coming up in future editions of reporters' roundtable follow me on Twitter arm RA FP that's just -- A fourth next email roundtable at cnet.com with your ideas for shows if you have any and as always don't get check -- site reporters' roundtable dot cnet.com. Four show notes links and two engage and talk with. Other viewers of the show Josh -- on thanks so much your time thank -- for producing with the guys on a week have -- -- -- -- -- --