Ep. 89: Apple after JobsWe all knew this day was coming, but it was still a huge shock when Apple founder and CEO Steve Jobs announced on Wednesday that he was resigning his role as CEO. Apple, to many people, is Steve Jobs. We're going to talk today about the future of Apple...
-- I brought welcome to reporters' roundtable are showing a single solitary tech topic each time and today we are talking about you guessed it. Steve Jobs leaving the CEO job and Apple now we knew this day was coming. But was still a huge huge shock when I went founder and CEO Steve Jobs said on Wednesday He -- resigning his role. Saying quote I have always said there if there ever came a day when I could no longer -- my duties and expectations as Apple CEO. I would be the first election now unfortunately that day has come. So he's stepping down obviously. For health reasons He is staying on as. At Apple as the chairman of the board which is no small job and has an extremely important role for him to take on. He will Begin CEO jobs to Tim Cook who has -- NC OO and interim CEO several times in past. So this is a major shift. As to many people. Apple is Steve Jobs. But in reality of course Apple is also -- -- design lead John -- It's it's Tim Cook who -- CO OO it's -- forcefully -- lead and nearly 50000 employees at Apple. We're going to talk today about the future of Apple under the new leadership -- new constituted leadership with three great guests all of whom -- CNET experts on Apple first. Here in studio with me Josh loans and the editor of the writer Paul. Also joining us. Via remote Jay Greene who is the author of great book on design and a wrote stories on how design is so integral to Apple. And how convenient. Or text promoted came out last year payment published at it's about to actually -- that the title is that from the Steve Jobs quote. -- talks about how -- designed now. He is not just about the aesthetics but really about the experience and it's something that Apple to and -- -- that pretty phenomenal job over the last several years. We are going to be talking about -- quite a bit and also joining us He wrote Brian Cooley who -- I don't know as that one of the voices of car tech and a long time Apple were co worker here with us. Until Brian thanks to come in and major -- on big big week yeah I mean we earthquakes -- all sorts of what else happened. -- hurricane heading up East Coast that's right has always adds yet. Com -- light everybody wants those it has been on this August is supposed to quiet time yet it hasn't -- been we've been working very hard. So -- I wanna start with this discussion by talking about the reaction to Steve Jobs leaving the CEO -- and I say that. Very carefully He is not leaving Apple -- everybody. Yeah he's reading Apple -- he's not dead and this -- the -- -- the first thing that you'd think from a lot of the media coverage views glanced at. What you mean like this that's. They said at what now or the day has come. Yet if it's quite funny I -- and people have been advised and you're not put this into print -- -- anyway -- for Steve Jobs it's gotta be like. Watching your own funeral. -- because He can see what people how people are gonna treat him because they're treating this event as if. He's done but the you know -- what's going to do with net let me defend our colleagues a little game. This isn't unusual and an IE we are all around when when Bill Gates decided to leave Microsoft in 2006 many left in 2008. When He announced -- 2006 people went -- did this kind of coverage when He left in 2008 the same thing happened and it's gonna Amtrak history as well. You know the there was actually is wonderful -- -- New York Times this morning back through the -- around Steve but it talked about how folks out this way about Lee Iacocca when He left Chrysler. -- -- that help people felt this way. When Thomas Edison retired so it isn't really that and usually -- -- it it is an absolutely important moment in time and we shouldn't. You know it shouldn't surprise anybody that -- are you know all that eulogize think Steve Jobs. -- and really tell a story you really you have to go back in and talk about each for the business in each connecting to be effectively was there. And really do that you you do have to make it a story -- and back. And that's something that you -- obviously shared with something like an obituary written -- out certain details of its similarities are there but yet there the stories of what he's done and how he's done it. Well you need to me -- -- -- usability of the tribute. But just that borders on the creepy if you ask me yet but it could edit it shouldn't surprise you -- -- -- I -- -- I -- people -- -- Bill -- -- -- -- -- -- -- don't go to a smart guy but He isn't. Leaving the face the planet He left technology for the most part and He still actually been doing -- -- as chairman of Microsoft took -- surprised but I also think the opening it's going into this. Is listen Steve Jobs is pretty seriously ill -- -- Shouldn't -- you know -- it. It's a it's a more it's a big moment -- I mean it suggests his health has deteriorated to the point where He really can't. Due to kind of job He wants to do list and CEO -- gimmick you know it -- it shouldn't surprise anybody that -- this emotional outpouring. This is the -- he's not coming back moment that's what it's a death about the death of Steve Jobs was the death. Of his peak it's the end of zenith -- can't -- can't come back to CEO by any understanding that we have He is now started the trip down. From the peak and that's kind -- moment here because we knew. He's left before. And come back and left and come back -- -- dealt with his medical issues -- been on -- but this is the one where -- now coming down off the mountain for the first time and it's basically irrevocable -- -- there's some you know amazing miraculous medical turnaround from what is possible -- but that's I think -- it's a -- to death of -- That He can actually stay or come back to the top. That is -- that is an ego point gonna object -- expect. One marketing. All right. It's like the IB ultimate identity and happening and I think growing for an idea it is there is that I mean mrs. A guy who I think it's pretty clear doesn't want to leave his job. I mean you -- the way He He treats Apple He treats products He. Apple puts out this is -- who loves what He does and that's that's and that's -- A key. Characteristic to have in any -- but especially CEO and it actually -- final value that -- But I find that I don't get that impression from Altec -- I do from every single start up one. But I don't get -- from the big guys all the time. Well the ones that are at the top tend to be this is the thing I've been I'm importing into -- people -- in the mainstream media is the unique thing about jobs and very few other leaders of tech companies is that He is passionate and studied and skilled at the craft of what the company does. As opposed to what 95% -- CEOs who are basically industry agnostic. They're just good -- running businesses -- -- from banking to oil to retail they don't care. The jobs and a few others especially a lot of -- in technology in particular are of the guild. Of which there industry is based and that makes for passion that means you -- I think that's right it's a dollar a year in salary -- -- all kinds of stock in -- It's not about trying to build up his -- let alone his war chest it's about the fact that He loves what He does and courts to exceeds his ego dramatically because he's a he's a taste maker. Now in addition to passion for for his job there Steve Jobs has other gifts and I wanna talk about those and talk about whether. Apple still has those in and day to day operational -- EO role and the first one is his vision for where computers are going now as idea -- put up on Google plus some past that something about them. How. -- jobs really -- it's about. Focus and design and and people were we're talking about how. And other other CEOs do manage to listen to their audience. But somebody pointed out three and section in a few -- to a story wrote Tom they listen to much. And they don't push the envelope and -- they listen to the focus groups and the focus couples say oh we like better we don't like this but. You you can't. Listen to feedback and move things are really forward you can only make things better what what do you -- think about that does Apple have. In Tim Cook and other -- other people the company the willingness the ability to push things forward beyond what people think they want. I think if you looking at just designing it. With interviews with Jonny -- over the years -- who heads -- their design efforts. He's he's you know He said that same party line that focus groups are not what it's about who it's about telling people they want and about creating an object. And that kind of having someone like that -- still there and is incredibly important. On as far is you know kind of figuring out what's next in and what's after that and after that a new multi kind of outbreak those things out for people. To be honest and when -- has talked before it's -- -- kind of laying out what the company's been doing how they've been doing the kind of business aspect about it. I'm not necessarily the -- of the future and and the way things should be. So I think you know with him now on the CEO role. And that's -- time to see if He has that move. -- -- -- I also think that we can't really tell -- -- -- there is another. Streak of vision in his lieutenants because. Acorns don't sprout under an -- that shady -- -- jobs blots out the sun. Wherever He is assist the way a guy -- that kind of wheel is like we're talking about he's not doing a whole lot of consensus -- the way other CEOs would so. Even his strong leaders eyes and Schiller and cook and up until recently Ron Johnson who left from the retail store division. How do you really shine how do you really blossom in the shadows. John I wanted I wanted to -- -- that point their little bit of prime because I think that's very next thing now while jobs has as we know. A gift for. Vision and -- gift for focus. As well as a gift for salesmanship which is really key. She did not invent the technology that two to the unibody aluminum Mac books. He did not invent the handle on the iMac -- G three even neck you know. He didn't doesn't invent these things He approves them which means that there -- other people in the company who were coming up with these wacky leading edge. Designed inventions. And somehow they are managing to get those inventions to blossom under Steve -- You you know I mean one of the keys with design. Is that it is very topped out. And -- so bear with me for a minute but it requires. CEOs it requires senior executives to allow folks. To -- great designed to spend the kind of money to use a kind of resource is to come up with great designs. -- in the on the bottom line very worried about the kinds of expenses that you would need to spend on design. It's not gonna flourish of those companies in really. The companies that -- design best are the ones that are willing to take the risks and not worry about. The kind of metrics that most executives most CEOs tend to follow there's no return on investment you can measure. With regard to design you have to trust that it's gonna work and that in many ways is one of Steve Jobs greatest legacies from not only really handful of other companies that. Have CEOs that really allow that sort of designed to flourish -- -- You can talk about it you know at places like. You know Nike does to some measure -- -- does it. How Virgin Atlantic is another company you know where you don't really think of design so much in in in airline service but but Richard Branson guy who's. Absolutely focused on design. And and allows his employees to spend a sort of resource is to come up with great designs and that's really -- -- to challenge for Tim Cook me. Casting a one and with just my little anecdote on design by the way. One of the things that that site that always gets me at the Apple app Apple products. Is that when you turn over -- a -- -- a portable Macintosh MacBook or even though the power books from before that I think -- turn it over. And look at its backside. There are no there's no like CEO of -- labels and certifications select stuff there's -- have all the labels and it's barely readable type like. Hidden centered beautifully there. No other vendors as that which means. I don't know what that only Dell have to try to do that wanted to distort at this about how they had all the required labels. Under a magnetic cover because you can't legally put it under scrutiny -- -- -- -- magnetics and the problem Miller but. -- if you're glad that critical. And -- -- these stories about how Apple just manages to go ridiculously nets and areas in design and were no other company -- even bother to go at Jacob had. I -- -- what I don't have fun and look at the screws. On your MacBook or whatever else. This space between where the screen goes in and where it matches up with with the body. Tiny tiny tiny -- actually Johnny I think. The tolerant -- He had He allows -- so miniscule and you know you sick and you think oh come on who cares but it's all those little details although little fetish is that make for -- great experience -- people love people. You -- you can sit there and kind of you know there's a story victim to victim got -- Yahoo! of Google class talked about. And it came out this week where He got a call from Steve Jobs one Sunday while He -- church and you know called -- jobs back leader in jobs talked about how He was concerned about. The color in the second O in Google on an iPhone. And you know folks you -- any number of folk aren't -- that pat can you imagine somebody being -- there's also this camp puts it parents say oh come on who cares why should He do that -- -- need delegate. But the point is it isn't just that one decision. What would make jobs and it makes as a -- -- really makes Apple so good at this is that they do this all the time. And collectively. They come up with. These amazing product that seems so. -- without compromise. And you can't get that feeling -- it seems. So rare that you get that feeling with so many other products and -- really get -- part of the genius and one of the reasons why jobs. Should be very image credited for the amazing turnaround -- had. -- -- -- And Wednesday announced on the set designer yesterday a guy who builds sets and props and He did his company did the job when they were doing -- the tables where they've shot -- -- the iPhone four steals for their advertisement. And it had to be done a certain way any credit obviously incredibly perfect perfect but -- was a certain finish. Michael Formica finish on top -- it had -- And they sent this in for approval to Apple and it was three or four days the shoe was the next -- or get really nervous okay as this piece of furniture ago for the shooter not. In the anti joked in an email what is Steve approving it. The core I hit -- reply comes back -- It's there He was approving the texture of the Formica on hold on a disposable wooden table they're gonna use for -- one day photo shoot. And -- in the end didn't like it enough to usage should the fellowship of the the camera on a Green screen. -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- Between two of those glass panels and apparently He was given them health for the gap it wasn't is narrow or is even as He wanted to be the -- devils and everything I. I I I have one confession to make before we move on to salesmanship and secrecy all the stuff recently we -- working its new products here at CNET and going back and forth with them. With couple people and design product and an ardent health certain things looking -- back and forth a couple of times on it. And you know the approval comes and it's my approval and and it comes in and it's like. You know it's good enough apparently gone back and -- Steve Jobs was sitting on my shoulder my virtual Steve Jobs saying keep pushing keep pushing keep pollution -- like you know what. I'm tired and this we gotta get this thing out hand and there's very little to be gained. You know at this point -- going back and forth and exactly where design fails I failed I'm sorry. But the key there is you wanna push yourself as they want to be Steve Jobs -- pushed. But you don't have the vision of the biggest I don't either. I don't either it's like jobs has a vision that most of us don't have otherwise always -- my boss Leo means like great just approved and they suck and my line. I wouldn't know what to push toward none of us would once you get to that very top of the -- that last percent of the pyramid the most of -- go I don't know where perfect it's. They claim it one -- equipment and design where emu line because. One I think that the misperceptions. About Apple with regard to design is that it's all about appearance. And I made -- jobs makes this point that you know appearances matter and that's great. But for him. Design He use this exact exact quote designers how it works for him it's about creating a great experience and so sometimes that's in the aesthetics. But often it's actually in the entire experience and so in early iPhone is is such a wonderful example of casino before the iPhone existed. The fonts are just about making calls and some folks did texting on an email was a pain -- a -- blackberries -- What made the iPhone so traffic isn't just that it's a cool looking device mean it is. But it's that people can eat it it's that seamless and -- -- integration. With iTunes so that people can create the precise experience that -- And that's really one of the misunderstood. Pieces of apples and jobs mastery of design. Speaking of the total experience here one of the things that that Steve is famous for an Apple under Steve Jobs is famous for is secrecy. What will happen to the cult of secrecy. With Tim Cook as CEO but He guys that I just think it's in its digital to be honest there -- a few -- the guy on earnings calls. Answered questions from analysts to cool -- anything and everything -- after. Tight lipped as ever you're on the calls. You know what it will still listening to of course -- them like. He's fine and -- -- used in -- off any specific and if someone goes hey you know how many ipads you have in this market and market and you know he'll give them just a little piece. But it's if nothing to gives away anything. And that kind of ability to kind of screwed around actually you know telling people in one now -- That's something that you and that few people have and I think the -- Brian. -- -- Apple is -- at. Fostering anticipation. You know it's funny -- and I I spent most my time and in Seattle -- had a lot about Microsoft and Nicholas almost the opposite direction. -- it in maybe doesn't -- everything out but. -- you -- have a sense of what's coming -- -- you know they build towards an -- and the new look. Operating system for Windows Phone that's gonna come out shortly as windows mango and my god they've been previewing -- -- for the last several months and and there's some folks were quite interested and excited by it. Let you know what Apple's pretty good about is. They -- this anticipation by withholding information now as a journalist I gotta say kind of drives me nuts right union. There are. Rumor after rumor about when the iPhone five is gonna come out and you know the vast majority of a -- to scratch your head you -- shut up already. But but that said it. It's worked really well for Apple and and is just says. And media to look not an idiot he's not gonna just throw all that stuff out aid in makes perfect sense to continue doing next and of all -- Things for him to follow that Steve Jobs has done that's about. Easy. Let's tackle -- more about Tim Cook who is this skyward -- come from. What is He brings what do we think He brings to Apple. Well he's effectively been -- -- right hand men for years now. And and it. He knows there is in a part of business he's run day to day operations for Apple He can probably tell you what every single component in every single device cost and where they got from -- -- When He went to this manufacture white needing billions of one -- -- control is is ingrained. And keys are also won the people responsible for. Kind of making meant that creation process of these products go out totally separate companies in -- you know companies like Foxconn actually put it together -- to -- incredible amounts money to. If I'm not mistaken when when Tim Cook started it Apple Apple's running its own manufacturing plants -- method that's the case -- in Ireland and elsewhere and He did is He He said shut down those plans. And will outsource -- like a very. On Apple move in it has worked right it has -- part of that spend that kind of intense control and oversight them and that Apple's exerted. And and yet they're still in secrecy yes there's the occasionally but they really lock down on that. What if undersea about the Tim -- story is He was it was -- -- -- -- and I wanna say IBM if I'm not mistaken. In similar rules. And then He went to Apple in 97. Is that rights. He's been CEO I think currency since may 2000 somebody went there in the bad days if I have the timeline right. And He talks about what and incredibly even to him crazy move that was but He when He saw something and Apple that sparked a passion which is easy to see now. But in 97. How do you possibly make a move from compact which was a hitter in those days snap over to Apple which had the bankruptcy stink all over it. He's got as much invested I think emotion in this company -- jobs. You know one of the things that kind of doing with the thought experiments my hinting about Tim Cook more came from. I look at him I see a guy probably who could -- CEO who could have made the iMac. You computer guy lot of industry experience -- manufacturing inside and out -- leadership inside and out and extremely smart capable -- I could see him inventing the iMac the whole line of WiMax -- -- Could -- though. Have invented the iPod. A whole new category. And taken on the entire music industry do we think Kim is a guy who could -- an industry away jobs did with the iPod. Well that's you know that's obviously the great big unknown is is this long term plan what happens Apple of course jobs is known -- incredible negotiator -- the -- sits down and tables of these labels and and gets into concrete -- things and no one else would never agree to. Incident the question is if you don't cook's been been around talking -- phone companies in China and he's obviously been negotiator as part of that dated payroll. And now CEO that added in a presumably becomes a larger role for him -- Come on talk about Johnny -- as well he's the lead is IVP of design I think -- Apple. Obviously another right hand Steve Jobs I think He has several. -- next bit of a mutant but down. What how does He stay ahead now is is I have an innovator -- in -- in design -- in materials science and all of the above what what's his special. Power -- an icon -- all of those. And you -- -- -- He is. You know a quiet kind of behind the scenes guy who everyone in the design community will be years -- -- He He has. -- you know he's been an -- in He has the same sort of -- discipline that jobs has that sort of focus on detail. And that that unwillingness to compromise. That really define you know. So many different. IPod product Apple products. So you know I. I would say that. You know it. It added the challenge for him -- -- He is now the taste master -- that was Steve's job. Patrick and He is He has -- you Nokia has been elevated to that the pressure is on him. To. Continued Apple's trek tremendous streak you cannot be -- playing a major role in the past and this clearly he's gonna plane even more significant political and corporate. Now people been asking me in and -- here. Other other jobs is out there in tech. And it and are there I mean is Zuckerberg really jobs like in his focus is Larry Ellison -- Oracle bomber page. Who who is the most jobs like out there. That's that's a tough when you are talking about this this week -- and there are those media requests coming in -- -- -- Steve Jobs in Silicon Valley and I don't get that vibe from anybody who is coming up there's been a little bit of that vibe from some people that I can point to that are already basically retired there in almost a generation. Older than jobs. I'm not seeing it right now and anybody currently. -- that's because so much of a jobs -- is about creating tangible and a lot of the innovation now is about creating platforms for. For users to create as much your business as you do. It's kinda like who creates as much as they used to create when it was much more of a tangible and as Vista and Apple -- -- you really skinny go to hawk moment in the day and say I run Apple. I run Apple we really kind of run a big ecosystem that we can take lot of responsibility for whereas a lot of innovation now is more a matter of weeks. -- -- platform the kind of largely invents itself as -- as we keep you giving it more fuel. You know interestingly should say that any FaceBook I believe is actually a platform more than -- visit product which makes yes that's what Zynga works. But if you think about things as vertical. -- have to think about Google with with phones computers. All the informational. Service -- -- Google's got that kind of innovation that Apple has in a very different space but none of the charisma absolutely zero. Zero it's true mammoths and now that's the that's the thing you know I'm -- my dead last -- who -- -- -- way back in the day when He was He was in the drive business in the -- early Apple -- laws and jobs and had meetings with them to send them hard drives which are pretty exotic in those days and it was very clear that laws was the engineer and Steve was the salesman who was bound to sell you what He had in mind. Whether it was ready or not He was absolutely focused on selling and we've seen how that's come to fruition late in his career. To be his number one strength but that's the thing we don't find in other companies I I don't see anybody who's got that charisma. Well -- and beyond that to its -- critical bit of a silly question of the jobs and Steve Jobs I -- you know. Part of who He is as He is a founding C yeah right He was really one of a handful of pioneers of the computing industry. On you know -- and Larry Page and Sergey Brin are brilliant in their own way right Mark Zuckerberg is driven in his own way. There -- all sorts of CEOs and and senior executives in in technology but you know. They have their strength and for the idea that someone else could become Steve Jobs are being jobs -- Hate to say that's it it's. It's a construct a kind of silly then you're not opening Larry Page has any desire to be Steve Jobs he's pretty -- -- Larry Page. I'm just someone to connect to the presentation think is that it's funny -- on -- Google. -- -- -- bland. You know. Company likens presentations and and discovering things her prison in of people in even in five years of this kind of going these these press conferences and Google's. You -- fleecing -- -- like before which is the couple engineers to come out you know here's some new stuff and here's -- live now -- I didn't -- you you'll -- And even you know nothing happens -- -- which -- -- -- for our keynotes there it is. Like the Acer whittling it down and getting that that element of surprise and something silly -- -- something for the area and -- the economy -- that. That -- same -- was October when when you go back is up numbers early days. It was a scene -- -- blinked today we have any PO IAEA. And and now it's like look at this this is our -- this is what it does. I -- is what I'm saying. You're you're the the VM FaceBook Skype announcement. Yes on nine to defend now one should know we've got -- together to keep their rhetoric that I don't have that. Encrypting our regular -- that presentation you whenever you when the Q and is the most exciting part here you know what -- agency do it wrong Steve would never do that because that was a partnership announcement and Steve would never share the stage in the way I mean he's done a little -- that's neighbors and media -- -- river's entire -- -- a rule -- why when people asking when you build a CEOs while we can just partner or somebody does it and hey -- platforms networks and our. Moving on I don't -- -- Havoc. Can't comment on this other CEOs have left as jobs has and returned. Very few manage to -- successfully complete Howard Schultz at Starbucks Michael Dell a spell to wait Gateway and there's a list -- -- Xerox. Kennelly and -- -- by the way thank you comments for this -- were -- from. -- How does this generally work on the C yellow leaves. Under some generally unhappy circumstances -- has pulled back in a -- -- to do this again. And -- -- a big difference is here to do is that jobs came back to the company He found. Surgery -- even earlier about you know the passion He has for the job. I think that's unique among founding CEOs -- -- not -- but it is it is particularly in many ways to founding CE Schwab and Dell both did that. Under companies of the same name and Dell obviously worked for him. The -- that jobs said in that Stanford keynote commencement He gave was that what two years ago I think it was. It was I've read about a very instructive about him he's He said He came back after -- -- very humiliating firing from Apple at the first time around. He came back with I get -- -- -- -- Buddhist concept of the eyes of the mind of a beginner. And He realized that -- -- He can know longer. Beat the expert that you could easily say He -- this in his industry in his field within his company He comes back now with a mind saying I don't know. Let me open my mind doesn't mean he's that collaborative with all individuals and -- him on the head singing you'll get a blue ribbon but in his own mind though I think he's very open to the possible. As opposed to -- doing things -- -- -- -- know -- to reject right off the board let me focus on the few good ones I think He stays -- and I don't know if every CEO comes back. Does that I don't know that I've seen that in the other ones who come back they haven't. Done this incredible real leap into a new broader vision they've come back and they've doubled down on what they do well originally which is different -- jobs it. Eight -- I believe. Brian you're actually correct very few CEOs come back -- -- with Buddhist teachings. -- our -- Arafat though you may or may come all of them combined I don't think have come back this much success however you wanna measured -- -- -- market cap whatever in -- that's a Stanford graduation speech which has Steve got jobs -- because three stores I believe was 2005 I'm not sure anyways it's -- it's a great speech. On any talks in addition. The Whole Earth Catalog at I don't think everybody quite realized how -- of the hippie movement impacted Silicon Valley it's huge I mean Grateful Dead -- everything was. And eastern religions have impacted the way early hackers and developers built -- without their books on -- fast -- none. When that this store brand to palm created the polar catalog. Put the saying on the back of -- last once they hungry stay foolish which is -- Steve Jobs. Catch phrases which is very much similar to that the console the beginners mine you know always keep your mind open if it even -- -- yet. Anyway com. So allow us when -- talk about here. It do we think that Steve has passed on -- you talked about the as of that place for me and that sentence. Pass on his DNA how and I mean that hasn't yet happened until we didn't change the -- -- what Apple -- Stewart's no I don't compassionate toward me pass on. Literally the the company DNA the insults. Of what Apple has become. Effectively to the new executive team said -- said that you know He is a very shady oak do you think that the -- the acorns are now spreading. Have really. Embraced what Apple is about. Here's the thing without being able to replace Steve Jobs that you can't -- carefully as we mentioned you can replace individual -- another individual -- -- -- you can replace this one guy he's too rare. -- doesn't mean he's fault was by any stretch but he's too rarely see a suited. To the company and to the moment in history when He resumed his work there that's a big part has -- talked about. He has great timing whether He engineered that way or just fell into a lot of things that He believes in. Were enabled by this moment in technological history that they could be executed well and affordable it. Board also is happening here is you're gonna take one person's -- at the very very least a divided among three other executives that's the least dilution we can see here we've been talking about -- the whole show. I immediately you have a -- revision because three people are always going to see more possible good moves than one. So they're going to be a little more diffuse I can't see a way around that that's that's that's a concern I have for Apple starting point for months from now. -- you know Guy Kawasaki at a pretty good comment and edit it after. Jobs announced his his departure He said you know you can argue that. Jobs has passed along this DNA to two. Apple in their -- its successors. Or you could argue that. He He has an and that Apple's gonna founder but the things you can't argue. Is that Apple is better off without Steve Jobs and they didn't sell it you don't -- it. United there there's no way to get around that point so. -- these guys have that DNA shirt assume so. But it it it -- it doesn't matter to some extent had a meaning they've lost this iconic powerful leader and -- you have to figure out how to make their way. So what's next for Apple Josh is you think Tim has a plan out that's one half to three years I'm sure I nagged you know it's funny when you read these -- reports as they go anymore from a year to two years fortify. Its vibrant and and there's really no telling you have to imagine that they've they've had this roadmap in place for products in -- -- to -- it's a question of how much oversight now. It's gonna happen some as long term product and how much of of a touch jobs still has a map as that He -- at the chairman spot for this token and stated -- stuff. If there's one more thing I I think assisting factory here and -- -- -- consumers as well as Wall Street and that is the perception of Apple's missteps and they've always made missteps their relatively small and they get minimized for the most part because Apple still within the American Media cycle still in the darling phase. We -- to tear down our heroes that may be what's about to happen as soon as the first -- -- if -- active antenna -- happens what was to happen with iPhone five. I think this company could get hammered in a different way in the minds of consumers and investors because saying -- -- -- -- Then I have it -- don't have anymore. If mobile -- your right mobile -- happened today. Or you know -- I I completely disagree and have to actually wrote a piece about it. Where it came to CNET. For Wall Street Journal. In a wrote an op -- about this we only steal from the best guys -- really any compelling reason I suspect I. Apple has engendered incredible. Good will among its customers. And I would argue because of design. And that the customers are in the -- with their products so much so. They are willing to cut Apple flack when it comes up short and and doesn't come up short that office. But antenna gate and mobile -- two great examples He think about mobile me we all remember mobile me because we're in this business. Ask any consumer about what we need today and try to -- they don't -- remember that antenna gate. The -- -- still -- remarkably well and even more so it's hold remarkably. Remarkably well. During antenna -- when it was an annual -- and it and it's because consumers. -- -- may have given Apple is engendered goodwill because it's designed so there's so many -- products and -- sing a different argument that. That other companies like say Microsoft. Doesn't get those that sort of goodwill -- you think about like they can which I you know this phone that. -- -- -- -- shorten a number of different ways customers were not willing to cut it any slack. Because Microsoft design over the years yeah been pretty mediocre and so it engendered no good well there. But I think that the average consumer may if this happens start to hear a lot of shall we say black and white whipsaw media that -- suddenly and I'm not talking about savvy media but I'm saying there could be a conventional wisdom in the media always looking for that whole -- -- -- stored era around Apple -- jobs. And they may just start to hear it starts to -- the herds about a smart is a -- who will the beast running. But it may be that idea that well I heard Apple's not as sharp as they -- -- look -- one of those Android phones in of that kind of mentality it's not is that an analysis as much as it is almost an emotional ripple that might be happening. It with future missteps. I would argue that those stories existed when. The I went went and can't make it happen and certainly when mobile me happened I mean the the press was all over that and actually beating up the company for the most part. And consumers didn't care. Yeah I think the media also dead although you'll always started and ended those stories with kid gloves -- gonna beat him up in the middle. But -- at the end of the anchors and come back and He -- their papers and -- -- been given that I from -- it's good to be jump through a cut. I don't know I did as a that this can be a minor kind of a little difference I think on how we look at the cracks but you're right to be that -- -- this company has it is an unprecedented. In our industry and present in most industry. Now wanna start to wrap up -- -- talking about how Apple got this good will which was pretty much with a string of hits. IPod iTunes iPhone -- iMac iMac -- the the in the MacBook air and the MacBook in the aluminum MacBook and MacBook Air. Which by the way I have and I've never -- a computer more species I thank -- to admit it. Even now. So it has been the reason that Apple Stock price one of the reasons for the big reasons Apple Stock prices up there and Exxon territory of between three and 15400 billion dollars stock parts are. Market valuation market cap. Is because it's hit after hit after hit. No other company other companies have -- not a string of them like this company. What is next is gonna be TVs. Is it going to -- Need some other part of the media industry is going to be at the onion says printers what do we think. Is the next big push that speak up ending for Apple. I think -- -- you rumor which is the one it's been kicked around so much -- last. Few years at least in and now. Utility -- it does is -- Jeffrey's nineteen monster. He argues that TVs -- the big the big new market a because everybody wants one. Similar and I mean not everybody but everyone adult world against him but then Apple can do the same kind of -- -- -- with the iPhone and iPad which is can it differentiate their product -- take it somewhere where no one else has taken it. And kind of take some of smarts they've learned -- Apple TV with Iowa at some of the iPad. And -- to something that a lot of people spent a lot of time on and hopefully may be spent a lot of money on to. I Apple can take their display technology they can take there their their physical design technology and I'm always amazed into a lot of coverage on the TV side. And you can't a magic. Many people buy and LE DL CD because it's point nine inches -- vs 2.2. For a traditional backlit LCD. The picture isn't even on their radar. They perceive it having a better picture because it's got a thinner case and more than that they just -- a thinner case. And you'll see a walk around first month they had that TV to keep walking around the side -- look -- -- at -- TV. Nothing to do with usage at all so Apple can take that -- for industrial design that we really -- -- to connect with television I don't know that most people. And as much. Wanna buy the sexiest of their other technology certainly not computers those who don't care what their desktop looks like for example but on TV's -- really get into -- that's part of the look and feel of our home. Apple has never. Been quite that much a piece of furniture and it has never been in the furniture business and that's what they can do with a television. That's exactly I don't buy about this is someone walking avenue Apple Store with -- TV under the -- that -- I ethnic and not a -- rarely -- cannot imagine it'll be one of 42 points to how you want to have an Apple Store -- -- -- -- -- fifth of an athlete and that's when the big things it did has been cited -- reports and suggested it. Along with this -- -- be some sort of home delivery service and set up service for other Apple gadgets -- lake do you really mention Apple geeks line. That is does not -- -- Steve -- -- -- this is greatly tiger team of people driver on a -- like -- -- -- -- hang it hang on hang on Josh. Apple did have how many employees work in Apple stores how many blue -- it hipster is are there right now who are happy to work at Apple stores -- and actually. For the most part. They're not bad. Apple -- get retail you know one and in my house. It's just she could be in line. All that's low -- I just think he's a hipster not not supporting united -- -- -- -- youthful. Anarchy -- actually what I. I sort of almost think it's obviously different -- May be it -- speed a little bit by the -- cloud announcement. -- surprise me at all if the next great set of breakthroughs that Apple comes up where. If they want it to -- if they want upcoming the -- breakthroughs have something to do with software as a service cloud based features. That's really where a lot of the innovation is gonna happen -- so you know. Apple TV is this product at -- of -- -- and it's. Pretty good product it doesn't feel remarkable I mean you know the the industrials out of the box kind of sweet but -- -- I actually think that. You know for Apple to sort of maintain its -- its really gonna be more on the software. And servicing side and they've done good things -- the past and that's really where the opportunities can be I think. I was also an opportunity in the automotive space -- a tough bunch of partners to work with but not enough has been -- -- iPod out. Microsoft and -- and a good job of brand labeling Ford cars with the Microsoft sync label has become very much a big factor in driving consideration afford cars especially the more affordable cars which is a good trick for a a technology. I think there's something to be said that if Apple can really. Again it's not a natural piece of hardware is a piece of firmware and -- demand that I want a card that supports Apple I want a badge program what Apple inside if you will that's the kind of -- go by -- carmakers respond to them I could see Apple loving it because it builds the tide of the hardware ecosystem. Yeah I could as well although the deals -- app that that jobs and Apple under jobs has commenced strike with AT&T first when they get it a cut of sales of a recurring revenue of the cell phone bill. I mean. Apple's the corollary for that would be Apple getting a gas tax. Which I wouldn't put it past Steve -- and after -- also shoots him to Duke Energy build an entire new part of the business around something that might not be around for very long consume fossil fuels are disappearing well material no human in the -- -- -- -- alternate projects on the fifth. With the I guess are right I actually think I'm a close on this I I think -- Apple's. Big com. Soft spot the big weak spot and the greatest hope for are -- greatest opportunity is -- Trace that the Internet and the -- Apple does some moderately useful cloud services -- -- find my phone is a really. Really cool. -- and the new one of the call I cloud. That's really think that's not -- that's using the -- -- an infrastructure with is that you're very little turn to web presence there for one area I think that Apple has a lot of growth ahead of it. -- and unfortunately it's a very difficult business to make a lot of money and make make Apple. Margins in on the web so we'll see I think that's gonna be there -- define them for the next couple years -- -- and pull that off. Anyway. Josh thank you so much for joining us -- Josh covers Apple for CNET news. Woody cover of Microsoft Google and design. Design is how works are now available on and on and Brian Cooley in addition to covering car tech covers what else brand. Whenever I can. Brian Josh Martin. The C Il park Palo Alto Research Center. Steve Hoover right -- at this week but I am delaying -- -- until next week because of the screen and interest in Apple news. Thanks everyone for watching you can find more about reports roundtable links all the stuff for talking about at cnet.com slash reporters dash roundtable dash podcast. Or just follow me on Twitter put links up I'm Rafe or a ftp email only rated cnet.com with your comments or questions until next week thanks -- -- -- -- --