Ep. 79: Windows 8 and the future of MicrosoftMicrosoft introduced Windows 8 to the executive crowd at the D9 conference this week, but the demo followed Google's Eric Schmidt, who clearly implied that Microsoft was irrelevant to the future of technology. So what does Win 8 mean to the world? Jay...
Hi everyone welcome to reporters' roundtable I am -- -- woman in San Francisco and today we're talking about windows eight. I was just down at the and of course at that show though the boss of windows Microsoft Stephen -- introduced. Windows eight in the big demo. And he showed it running on tablet computers is a very compelling demo. And it was an important -- two from Microsoft as the company has pretty clearly lost -- the lead. In the operating system battle on phones and on tablets the two most important emerging platforms and technology. So how's windows ain't gonna help Microsoft and help Microsoft -- moto back and these new platforms. And what else is going on in the OS spacesuits from Apple and Google that is important. That's what we're gonna be talking about today with two great guests first cnet's news dot com's. Own Jay Greene are -- -- reporter is that -- -- in from. Seattle. Happy to -- it. And also joining us smile pal Ed -- who I last worked with the PC computing. That was it. Ed but who is now a runs the Microsoft column for -- -- -- sister publication. Ed thinker dialing -- as well. It's good to work with you in a different century -- it has been that long. I needed to find a new career -- I like this this is funny this is interest thinks let's dive into windows eight. It was the biggest news at the a quick video from a very popular YouTube. Video that Microsoft now have posted. This -- Jensen Harris of the -- of windows team giving a brief introduction to the new windows eight -- -- -- -- -- -- The start screen. News for all -- Every -- system is represented by. -- felt -- and dots per -- and a little more states that -- -- -- Whether act here you -- You open. Community and you based on standard -- If people there. And it'll. You know it uses it on the -- -- app from. These apps are -- free. You fool. A -- like. But there's Mercury. -- work well that would. We want it to -- in the past fluid in. Your room -- -- just. Well here. -- -- Through my system. -- -- -- -- We'll have a link that -- video in the show notes you're -- -- you guys to check out it's really interest thing. And so that's windows -- that doesn't look like windows to -- guys how. What is this is this a new operating system a new philosophy and Microsoft just a new U -- what what did we just either. -- the. There's the answers yes. Hey if you use our new operating system may and a new philosophy about how to approach enemy. For Microsoft recently done. If they change the metaphor. You know it it is an icons -- different. Scroll your mouse over click open up an application closed -- move to another application. It is an entirely new approach and I think visually it's it's it's quite attractive and in an -- For -- like -- the tech regular you have been using windows for many years. It's it's an entirely new look. Ed you've been covering a Microsoft windows. Since the early days how biggest shift in how important shift does this look like the U. Well in the interview that Steve it's not ski and Julie Larson green if Microsoft did with Walt Mossberg and all things. 95. And that actually sounds pretty accurate to me this is the first time that they've really gone and and moved away from -- start button taskbar metaphor. Having said that though it's I think what they've done is there's little bit of sleight of hand there. There's two shells. That they've come up with here and I think the idea is -- you get to particular shell. Based on the -- that you have available to you so that if you have a keyboard and mouse plugged -- you might want to choose the sort of traditional shell. Whereas if you're using -- touch based device. Of any size. Then Dan the all the touch based controls that they showed off in the various demos will be the avenue for you so that what they're trying to do is say. You don't have to give up the old windows. You can you can switch. Seamlessly as those -- words you can switch between the old -- on the -- hell. Now the last time that Microsoft had an alternate shell for its windows operating system was you know the product that pop up -- my Microsoft fob. This is not -- this is this is -- and this is different and why is wise to sell -- I -- Windows 7 to be fair is a good operating system. If is this a shell which is a whole new OS I made clear to help -- guys help clear this up for everybody. You don't want to invest -- -- you know it well there is this idea of having to show and I think that's right. Kind of confuses matters a little bit -- I -- I think it's exciting but at some point if -- developer. You might wanna start trying to -- -- you pick and choose and and accurate right publishing and step back a second day. You know with them. We -- ten minute demo needs and try to really understand everything that happened it you know. There -- going to happen with with windows eight from that -- you know it is probably be legally. But if there really are gonna -- -- -- which seems like there are. That's gonna be a little confusing for developers which would you really optimize for which when he developed work. You know Microsoft has come up with -- looks pretty cool but. They're an -- on -- -- -- trying to help developers figure out what it is that they should be creating their problem you know their programs for now. Speaking about developers briefly before we get into it it. We'll get into this -- province -- more detail later on. One of the big things that their Microsoft Microsoft is it's pitching here is that windows eight is a big HTML five environment. How important is that a wire that pushing that so hard and you -- -- that. Sure the I think the idea here is that's the way to build apps that are full screen. And touch enabled and they will run so they'll run. In. On these new devices these tablet devices that will be and you part of the Microsoft ecosystem. And that's that's the best way to do that -- man. Putting people into. You know it proprietary development platform silverlight. Or -- or something like that. They they hidden part of that the part they didn't talk much about is that in theory that means that any of those apps could run they can run on the Internet. So that if you happen to have an iPad or. Google Android device then you would have access to those apps as well. Presumably -- local ones would run better on a windows -- -- Mountain. So developers are going to have to figure out if they want to write for the web for windows eight or for the old windows infrastructure. And well not exactly I think the first two are the same button. -- so it has basically if you write for windows eight. -- you're writing for the web with some with some local storage aspects added to it it really that choice is going to be you -- -- went 32 apps. That you know -- run a traditional desktop environment or these full screen html five based apps. Okay so when do we get this new. You live plus new shell and are we gonna need to buy a -- all new computers for. So. So the answer the -- to answer first question is. You accept -- -- when it's gonna come out -- -- it's not he said you know two to three years since the typical timeframe for. You know windows release -- Windows 7 came out in October 2009. So. You know it could be by -- -- -- -- -- most books are betting it'll be 2012. And and the second question is. You know will you have to get new PCs -- the answer is not necessarily. But certainly want to optimize for touch you're going to be cougar and a PC -- that really optimize for -- -- Well that clearly that Microsoft is it -- -- -- -- demo was on tablet computers and then at the end of the demo they showed it running on some. But I'll call convertibles which were laptops that had touch screens including the Dell with the flip -- screen and Anna and and it thinkpad with the touch screen on it a convertible think that rather. So obviously they're pitching this thing four or touch it is touch the future of all interfaces for technology users. It's one part of the interface you've also got voice interaction which Microsoft has been investing in. For a long time date you have you know -- facial facial recognition. -- you -- you've got all sorts of ways that people can interact. With their computers -- think in terms of the system requirements. One of the things it's really important here is that in in this interview. Sandusky made it very clear. The system requirements didn't change from Windows Vista to Windows 7 and they are not going to change from Windows 7. Two windows eight and so at the interesting thing about that is I think that means more to businesses that it -- to consumers yes consumers. Are going to want the sexy new slates and and devices that have interest -- capabilities to them businesses are going to say hey you know what we. We've been getting three or four years of life that -- these these -- desktop systems and even some laptops we can push those to even five years now. And still have this new operating system work on it which is. You know pretty amazing by Microsoft's standard you know I wanna. Talk a little bit about the impact of this new direction on Microsoft business customers because Microsoft makes the operating system that businesses by. And consumers will adopt the new flashy thing with some well. But enterprises. Are much more deliberate and one of the issues one of the things that they showed here which -- been shown a demo is. Windows eight running traditional windows apps and they -- excel. As a pop up on top of that you've got this nice. A windows phone seven like interface with that -- -- -- by tiles must bring sliding around. And any launch excel and popped up as a window on companies you tried to. -- that little red clothes square with your finger and put things totally change. It's not gonna be completely jarring at or is it does Microsoft have no choice. It to have these two interfaces run side by side but. You know the interesting thing about it to me is that. For business agent -- -- showed up all the with -- -- that consumers -- -- IT guys and meat on their hair out now I mean and again who knows what it's gonna look like in the end wouldn't let. You know the thing IT guys corporate IT guys want is simplicity they don't wanna have to retrain folks we don't have -- -- I don't -- have to read write programs. And so sure you can run excel on on the new device. But it's gonna be Olympic effort -- -- that you really wonder how legacy applications have been working homegrown. Applications that company right. For themselves for the companies -- -- inside the companies to use that can be really interesting question again Macs have really didn't address that they said. Should work -- You know. -- corporate IT -- from the monitor you know to get it out. Exact chairman of Google Eric Schmidt and he said you know. Very straightforwardly IT is dead referring to the move of many companies to put their their infrastructure in the cloud posted on. Google services -- and others. Do I T developers still make applications that run on windows or is everybody developing web apps nations now let anyone take -- -- -- shuffling. Are all well you know it's just the -- been predicting the end of -- for a long time. Look in in in multinational corporations there are so many. Legal requirements. For management. Information of privacy. Of you know it -- stuff going across international borders. Disclosures that have to be done securities laws the the idea. That you can just go in and say IIT department go away we're moving everything up to Google's cloud. Is is is it's a great thing for. Eric Schmidt to say onstage. But it reminds me of Bill Gates in 2002 talking about how tablets we're going to take over the world in the next decade I will believe it when I see it -- I -- I think to be fair I think gates was pretty much -- right it just wasn't Microsoft had to -- that won that battle and and that that -- -- to the next question which is the strategy here of developing windows. Which is radically different if I understand it correctly from what both Apple and Google are doing with their with their operating systems Microsoft. Aside from windows phone seven. Microsoft has one operating system for everything from -- you know your your 3000 dollar big gaming rig three monitor desktop. Down to. You know work out a one pound tablet computer with -- CPU and it. And different user interface is it's a monolithic operating system strategy. Apple on the other hand has a different OS for that for for a computer than it that's for tablet on -- phone. Google likewise has Android and has Chrome. What are some of the challenges -- there may be the reasons that that Microsoft would go for this monolithic strategy vs the smaller bifurcated strategies that Apple and Google going for -- -- -- China. So the key one I think is that you know the -- challenge. In the tablet market right now -- -- Google which is hoping that you know can put an Android and -- be successful -- and write on tablet the challenge is that. There aren't a lot of applications that run on top of Android for tablet that folks really want and the iTunes marketplace is terrific for that when it comes to the iPad. From Microsoft. It has. Millions upon millions of applications that run on top of windows and so. It wants to boot strap its tablet business. By putting full blown windows on a tablet so that folks can then. Have this rich set of applications that they can use and so that's a really interesting opportunity for my separated you can running -- -- on it. That might be pretty obvious that -- -- -- application but you know it's not something you can do on a tablet and and an iPad right. The challenge is that -- Timeframe -- the new revolution of updates. It's much lower for windows and it and it is for windows phone where than it is for for Iowa asked her for Android. And so you don't even just. In this instance it's gonna take -- up many many more months. To complete windows eight before folks and see and on tablets in in the meantime Apple may come out with an iPad three. You know they're -- you know and and Google can be coming out more Android tablets and so. It it it. Messes up messes with the timing of its slow as Microsoft down in terms of getting its tablet out but that same point. It might give an IMAX. I OS is a new operating system it is that it doesn't make use of all the developers I'm writing stuff for OS-X. -- but it but. ITunes and the iTunes as a marketplace where he has tons of apps and and folks -- reading more and more for -- right and and -- -- has. Almost nothing when it certainly can't currently. The windows phone marketplace -- I think -- 181000. Applications just for windows phone compare that to the number of applications that are of real. Or windows itself and you know it's really no comparison yet. -- can you talk a little bit about how Microsoft's. Developer relations that are going in and how -- this particular strategy might work -- not work with their. The existing. Well there's a little bit of chaos in the developer relations program right now. With a lot of uncertainty. Over the messaging things like windows with WP AF. And silverlight which Microsoft has tantalized heavily over the past couple years which were conspicuously absent. From any discussion. In the interviews and demos that we saw this week. I think what you're going to see is it's in September -- When there is a developer's conference for Microsoft has pledged to talk in great detail about their plans for windows -- I think that what they're hoping to show off there is all the tools. That windows developers know and use now. Will work to develop these applications for windows eight you know that's -- their messaging. And you know now they have to deliver on that but it's it's it's kind of a confusing time -- down here one of the things. That they -- -- -- your -- -- Larson green said the lawsuit -- -- -- -- -- -- largely thank you said at the demo at the nine was that. If you write an application. For windows eight and the touch interface. And then you take that application and you run it on. You know -- a current laptop computer which has no touch screen -- has a mouse and keyboard. But it'll work that they will do the coding to make a touch app work with the mouse and keyboard. It can -- possibly work and still give users an enjoyable experience or is that kind of -- a transition bone of -- throwing out to developers. I don't see why not that seems. Seen it actually seems like the right way to do it whereas in Windows 7 it they get it the wrong way. And when the seven they added touch is a feature. So that any kind of pointing that you did with a mouse was predicated on the idea of having you know you're aiming for an area of a pixel. Or you know or so. And end -- your finger is stabbing all over the place and not able to find that exact pixel. Here they're doing -- the other way around they're saying that the touch target. Is it's very large and forgiving. And and finger friendly. And so if you use a mouse. On a target like that. Not then -- you're guaranteed to hit it even if your little sloppy with your mouse work so -- that that doesn't seem like. -- to me at all. Let's talk a little bit about the leadership of Microsoft right now it's not -- -- after news -- is the president of windows in the windows live divisions of Microsoft. What's his background and it's either are expected to move. Microsoft. Forward and I think Microsoft as a company because when it was so -- Microsoft. He. Like more important to Microsoft and Ballmer does at the moment. -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- Do that for many years. So he's really render two most important. Product groups at Microsoft server group would probably be the third. His reputation has been very much being -- it guy he meets deadlines. -- is a political animal there understand the culture as well or better than anyone else and he goes back years ago. Was in -- one of the two guy along with. Got they'll -- understand that an Internet Wednesday -- an important -- back in mid ninety's. So it's deep and it is there are some -- that -- -- Steven is. That one of the people who would be on the shortlist to replace former. When Steve eventually leaves the company sell. And -- -- certainly if an important guy and -- -- -- you know a -- and on. You know the two most important product that -- at. He was. -- for the first few years of his career Microsoft he was a technical assistant to Bill Gates. On the -- is that is the kind of training. That serves you well in in -- when -- a role like this and so I think he is poised to potentially take opera's CEO some days. The I think the other thing that he's done that maybe he doesn't get enough credit for is that he changed the engineering culture. In the windows division it used to be kind of a cowboy. Organization you know people came in with features. And you've built your feature every year in these -- built their feature over here and then they brought them together and and -- Cut and shaped and chains such things if you had -- -- to make them fit together there's a great deal more planning. And process. That goes in now so that the individual pieces that make up windows. Are being designed so they fit together you know kind of like the way that the you know that trans continental railway you know when it met in -- -- there that the spikes all fit in exactly the right place and there's a real shift in the engineering culture. They showed it in Windows 7 and and I suspect we'll see it again with when -- -- They'll vote and I had to say one thing and I think it's -- Tuesday it you know prior to Windows 7. As Windows Vista and in I think most folks would acknowledge that that was largely in a combination of an operating system and it took Microsoft. You know more than five years to get that thing out the door and it was because the culture that -- talked about -- eight you know it was just. You know melange of all types of different technologies that were -- to -- and and easy unifying experience to people like what was remarkable that Windows 7 more than anything else if it got out quickly. And you know I T guys who like that kind of predictability and again that's -- etiquette when it enough is. But even that's not is known -- it's really getting stuff out on time meet deadlines movable board. You know you're -- of -- -- -- by reminding me about Vista because you know you look back in recent history. It looks like every other major windows operating system is good. And that does not bode well for windows 8%. Helps but but -- -- but you guys are both up there in the Seattle area and your to your jobs are to talk to. People Microsoft in your sources inside Microsoft house morale up there in the group that does windows is seeing what's happening with. With Android and with and with Apple to Apple -- smart -- where people doing up there -- people Microsoft. Well let me -- let me champion personal and -- couple thousand miles away I used to live -- quarter from Microsoft's headquarters. But I'm there with -- -- just don't know. In -- -- and you're there aren't -- great American southwest -- but I but I go up -- couple times a year and I think. The morale host Windows 7. Is it's very good -- -- -- There -- ripples in it there have been bumps along the way there was a series of layoffs that was. That they had in -- 5% layoffs those word those were slightly demoralizing. And then there was a whole thing. You know there's there's there's have been a recent. I hesitate to -- the purge. But they were -- there were several key people including. Rather quickly and them in rendered in rather suddenly. And it was done in such a way that -- you know some people were a little taken aback by it. I think all of that seems to settle down now people I've talked to who were working on windows eight are very. Very excited about it and happy to be working -- So let's talk a little bit about some stuff the came out of the. -- that it the conference with a discussion and one of the things that he it was some. Made the biggest headlines with you said there is a gang of four. That is leading the charge and technology these are for companies that together represent about a half a trillion dollars -- market cap. And do things and nobody else can do and they are Google obviously. Apple. FaceBook. And Amazon. In the gang -- four there are some notable companies missing like Microsoft which he described as well yet important but for enterprise not for consumer what was he really doing with that statement -- he's just trying to get under Microsoft Skinner what. Between entirely -- -- for second -- start over there. We just days audio. -- -- fill in -- they figured out what's going on there. Oda it no problem I I think that weighs a you know he hit hit for the home run swing for the fences. Kind of move there just be completely outrageous as recently as last September. Eric Schmidt was saying that being. Then the Microsoft product was -- -- biggest competitor. And so I think he was just trying to be a little outrageous here and and you know to a certain extent succeeded. But he had to be laughing I I hope yes the -- how much. Press he got from that. I'll -- right we're gonna take a quick. Tech break here we get things sorted out I think -- -- and don't. Our thanks guys were back. Well I think get a couple things -- personally answers yes you know acting. Eric Schmidt was really trying to marginalize Microsoft and -- comment need an upgrade that's part of what it -- to be in -- competitive and in this world. I I -- at a fair the again before alignment with -- and therefore -- -- company but it might in the years ago I wrote for business week magazine at a piece. About the four horsemen of technology in in the early 2000 -- -- Sun Microsystems. Cisco. Oracle and EMC well as a thrilling companies to. I did end up back then no that was a plumbing right -- to keep the Internet. And their stocks were going through the roof and so economy and at that point. My point really is more -- -- to -- Released in companies there's some big ones and you know the ones -- I Schmidt talked about marriage and platform companies and in this new arrow. Cloud computing. But you know there are plenty -- violent mean you know group on if they're really acting company to -- -- by others. Before it IPO you know its orbit and are doing -- and I shouldn't just -- -- the list of on the and so. Are are those the foremost important notice or brilliant ones when -- ASCII was asked how he felt -- part of the -- -- what does he say you were. -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- Now. I think that's also at its statement. That's also the kind of statement dead. That you do -- your own peril because it winds and as every. Football team coach knows that's the sort of thing that winds up in to the bulletin board in the locker room and it really does motivate your opponents. Aren't. I think a lot you know publication -- those guys are. Are prettier you know. Aggressive and ambitious you know -- it -- Well speaking of Google. Android is a very interesting operating system very -- -- product it is. While it runs on many platforms it is doing something that windows. Never did quite as badly which is it's beginning to fragment. So it I have to ask is -- its flexibility. In this new market of new devices Smartphones -- tablets is its flexibility a blessing or is it occurs. That's an -- in one you know. As a you know I hate to say look evil wealthy in order there was -- -- -- came out recently that showed the bookstore buyers are using and right. Are downloading a lot of free apps and and and not spending a lot of money on on and the -- the developers are creating. Which is -- in changed in phenomena. Theoretically discourage developers from. Creating more -- for that marketplace and you know and ready sort of always been the poor man's iPhone anyway. All you're gonna get flamed on that aspect of it and it's true -- it might pike and drag it into an interesting and there's nothing wrong with. You know -- bad -- marketplace. Actually I'm a rate that one down if it at the but it really there is I you know that it's not that marketing strategy didn't -- -- -- below what -- Really relatively expensive operating customer products -- -- so the fragmentation will be when that they've they've gotta figure out. And and the answer is probably at -- you know it is a fragment and that's gonna be not a great things tougher for developers and others. But that's bad it's the ground back just -- everything about. How is speaking of -- being the poor -- iPhone and how much is Apple driving consumer expectation and -- and how is Microsoft doing it dealing with that. That this shiny. The shiny object the consumer the gravitating towards which is the whole Apple experience which. Is different to say the least. I think you can you can take the Android. Experience that you just talked about. And Apple question. And and you can put them together because what Apple is doing well -- news. Basically the the bar that they're sending. For their content their competitors including Microsoft is -- simplifying things for -- and consumers. Want technology. That's easy to use easy to set up doesn't give them a lot of headaches. This end and -- you know so that's been the appeal most of the devices yes it techie can look. And an iPhone or iPad and see the limitations and it someone who's not a techie looks at those and sees how. You know for the most part it just works they can go to the store they can buy something they can go find things on the on the web browser and their investment in learning. Pays off. Android. On the other hand is all about the -- -- get fragmentation let's just call it. Complexity. Leading potentially to chaos and I know that the techies love. The the possibilities the openness of it in the all the things you can do with it but I think the average person will get very very frustrated. By that chaos factor that's I think Microsoft is trying to get in the middle there. And and make windows. Simple enough that it can compete with. -- Apple's products but. Rich enough that it doesn't feel like you're in a walled garden. Now. It it does appear to me at this moment that. Microsoft is fighting for third place in that market of tablets and phones. There's Apple and Android obviously that has the most most user base -- the most developer based in those two platforms. But Microsoft is fighting it out with. HP and the CEO of HP was that the nine and he laid out and audacious I would means -- ambitious. Audacious strategy that says we're going to have webos. On everything -- people up palm and we are going to do an end to end system that is like. Apple and he said we're gonna start putting webos on our desktop PCs which I'm sure the -- Redmond just love to hear so and then there's also. Rim with the what's their OS called. The -- -- -- anyway that -- -- that's how much right I -- tied into the -- risk environment is -- -- Unix. Yes actually you're right it is it's Phoenix bird -- derivation. They've got the playbook and -- are also trying to get that third spot as the most important tablet and phone OS. -- handicap the players here is it going to be Microsoft. HP or rim in the third spot and then vying for the second. So. The answer right now right you know will -- -- you don't -- that seem to be doing all that well but they right now are the device of choice for lot of enterprises and they have a lot of good security going on the thing that Microsoft certainly has. In its back pocket right now -- the deal struck with Nokia and it's a huge. Device maker particularly globally. Those markets are a little bit less. Well defined well tapped and some except -- some opportunities there. But -- so much depends and execution so much depends on how well Microsoft can pull this off and -- you know you can look at something like windows phone seven. Which may give some indications in -- and nifty things there and in you know the the look and feel it's kinda cool except it's -- botched a few of these updates. And made it a little bit harder for folks to it. Really want -- embrace them made in the you know they they rolled out some updates that of -- them you know Samsung phones among other things and say you gotta figure that out Microsoft and Nokia and in particular can execute. They have a decent chance but a lot of it's gonna depend on -- execution an expert in a webos. -- HP printer that I love but that's about it for me that I cannot battered iMac you know it just seems -- -- alongside me. At what do you think and webos do it and HP do it webos. You know IE I can go back and I could go region the closet of lost hardware here and all sorts of small HP devices dating back to 1982 and 93 none of which have ever made it they would be they'll be fighting their history. In and good good luck for that yet your your right but you know I can do the same thing but if I reach into my -- -- lost lost hardware -- also will plot about. Four or five. Palm devices which I loved. -- but they're. On. Any -- -- if you know he figured out you know fighting for number three -- that may yet. That can't explain praise and -- you could get to number two and number one without first going for number theory right. I suppose that group -- you know Boyd. Big gap between. Three in two right now and make -- portrait of how did -- How did Microsoft blow it I mean there are still the number one operating system on the desktop in the laptop computer for -- -- And they had every opportunity certainly as you -- saying 2002 gates saw the writing on the wall tablets and -- at one point not too long ago. There were more. -- there were more tablet devices running windows. More SK use more models of a windows tablet devices than there were any other now. They're on or how did Microsoft managed to blow it -- that in the. New market. To -- two ways and number one they were too early the hardware the hardware wasn't ready. I think that's one reason why Apple waited much longer than anyone expected them to. Is because they were waiting for the hardware to catch up so Microsoft did a tremendous amount of work and released a tremendous number of products. That had hardware that just wasn't able to deliver. A great user experience to people. And number two they did what unfortunately Microsoft has done too many times in recent history which was not to fully commit. To a product. They said we're gonna throw it out there and we're gonna let our partners do this and that -- see what our partners come up with. On that and you know in and they had partners like HP. And -- -- will mean you know that. -- -- -- Another reason industry and that it. Microsoft. Is it really is has not been very good company developing consumer products and -- you can -- the Xbox next in grape -- you know that's here. You hear exception to rule them but -- The reason why the iPad has taken off its its consumer device and Apple designs. -- consumer device. Microsoft and it made its original tablets for business and operating articles about it back -- -- in our talking with. Law -- using hospital using it and you know they were saying these -- things about it but. That that is in the market that has really run with the technology. Those early devices just -- great experiences. They weren't really designed well. For folks under EU that -- the most obvious market for them and that's really been the challenge from Microsoft of these devices they just weren't that good. -- right guys we got -- -- up the let's let's talk about. How how well we think windows eight is that it can't capture the public's attention can it fit well -- corporate America. Ed you firstly -- to windows it. Well you know I've seen a ten minute demo it so far and I've heard a few rumors I think we have we have a little over a year. To see what what will happen with it. And Microsoft seems to be following the exact same playbook even even down to starting with all things. For their first little. He's promoted so I think we're going to see that and I think Microsoft is counting on doing exactly what they did with Windows 7. And hopefully achieving the same level of satisfaction is a more audacious -- -- Yeah I think it'll so with a copy edit at ten great -- BC ten minutes epic -- note cut us a little slack here but -- at the it certainly is you know graphically fascinating and it's a really -- -- in its bold and you know give my credit for that. -- there are gonna you know a lot of enterprise customers you know are on contracts -- -- upgrade. You know gradually but they will upgrade because that's what -- party paid for that this software. What will be interesting to see it's how developers develop for it. And how users -- whether or not users really like the idea of having sort of full blown windows with all sorts of applications on their tablet. Or whether they just like having it -- to -- -- to play games and the handful of things. That tablets are really optimize for and so I think it's you know there -- and cutting edge and I bet -- a little bit. Certainly it's gonna sell its gonna sell as well as every other windows versions because windows always sells well. But you know whether or not it's gonna capture the imagination and bring folks -- it. Two windows that maybe have -- -- -- using Macs as a whole other story and I'm just I don't know enough yet to eleven that can happen. You know what I love this product that tell you why because for the next two years. I can do reporters' roundtable every week on the future windows -- That's -- journal employment -- actually thank you Microsoft we appreciate it I'm. That's it for this week's report roundtable Jay Greene writes for CNET news on Microsoft you can find the stuff on news.com. Ed but covers Microsoft for -- ED net Ed working people find your stuff. Is seen at cnet.com. Men at -- Microsoft report right there right on thanks for joining us thanks Jay thanks -- for producing. Next week we have a show you will not want to miss we are going to answer the question. Why our terms of service agreements so long. We've got that -- -- -- a lawyer friend of mine a guy who writes. He OS is or you -- end user license agreements on the show with us to discuss that and also do not miss this we've got a famous actor and I'm not gonna tell you who just yet. Doing dramatic readings from the iTunes and -- end user license agreement they are hilarious we rolling some of those out. -- very soon in ahead of WW DC and more on the roundtable next week next Friday that is. Don't miss that show thanks everyone for watching and we'll -- all next time on -- -- by.