Ep. 63: Kinect, Multi-touch, and the future of interfacesFinally, our touch-points with technology are expanding beyond the mouse and keyboard. Console gamers are using their entire bodies for control; Apple ahd ushered in an era of multi-touch gesture-based interfaces. What's next? We discuss with Ars Technica's...
No I was -- I was too busy dancing that you. -- -- and don't. Hi everyone -- the reporters' roundtable. -- -- -- San Francisco today we're talking about the future of how you interact with your computer. -- the future computer that you you future computers the multi touch will they'd be reading your gestures would be reading your mind. That's are gonna be talking about today we think a lot of interesting new technologies come along just the last couple months. Of course multi touch on the iPad we've got -- -- -- with the -- And -- the -- three remote and now we've got Kinect which is full motion capture. What is the future of how we interact with our computers. That is the topic for today we've got two great guest first in the studio Jon stokes is the co-founder of the awesome site -- technical thanks for joining us. The world and -- future writer of -- of on this very topic on the site check it out and then via Skype James liquidity is a principal analyst at Forrester. And the author ever really interesting report. How to prepare for the error of experience. If before departure subscriber to get that report on -- You do yes good reason to subscribe. Talk to your boss about that one that's all right eight. You make the point early in that report that one of the reasons that the television took off in the 1940s with that had. In extremely simple user interface power volume channel. Now while you may have had to stand like -- crane in order to get the antenna to work he was a simple interface by design. Do you think that what's happening with technology today that were over complex flying it and actually holding back the growth of technology. Maybe not today but certainly over the last 2030 years you know I don't think the TV designers. Landed on a spectacular user interface benefit to sixty years ago. Because they planned it I really think they were just constrained by what was available to them technologically and it just happened to be brilliant. -- remember there were only getting access to him for three channels at the time. And so it's very very easy to end up with a really easy user experience all of -- sudden though moved forward into the ninety's. When suddenly have hundreds of TV channels or in any other platform like imagine the Apple Newton or even though Palm Pilot which was relatively successful. These devices were designed to make you do -- let you do hundreds. -- thousands of things and no one stopped to think through whether or not you can actually make that experience easy and intuitive. And as a result these were very hard to use. Very complex even things as legendary early simple. As the Tivo device which -- -- in the year 2000 still unfortunately tried to get to -- so many things that it was some. Relatively hard to even use all of those things even though designed was was not an afterthought in the case of Tivo -- It's really been just the last 23 years kind of led by Apple let's admit it -- that we started to focus on making things dramatically simpler and we're making great progress. So what -- the new. Had a motive interface they right now we think about using technology we think about pressing buttons leased to Portland me for my -- anyway it's all about the buttons. What -- the new modes that that move us forward in how we use technology at -- well I mean gesture and touch of the two obvious you know. Multi touch is. One of -- important things to come along since the the mouse and keyboard. Arm gestures important to buy it. These are things that we're gonna do all different kinds -- tasked with them. You're not gonna do a spreadsheet using gestures in your probably not gonna do one and using multi touch you're gonna stay with the mouse and keyboard paradigm for -- By gesture and multi touch will enable new kinds -- -- with these machines. And so -- it's not a matter of -- what we -- on -- PC. And find in a faster better way to do it with. A different interface paradigm that's more of in -- the interface paradigm let's. Devices expand into different roles in our lives that that they couldn't before they were there they -- constrained because the needs of a mouse and keyboard lately may expand it to different roles. -- for instance I'll take my my iPad downstairs and watch TV whether it and in check Wikipedia or check an episode -- had I indeed be simply this. On because it's portable and because it's it's easy convenient and it has good battery life and so that's the thing that I did on the iPad that are a wouldn't have done certainly with a desktop PC. And probably would've done without the multi -- you know hot and heavy laptop. That -- -- go to market. But up but I but I do that anything now in a similar -- a -- you could make some arguments about the phone. In a lot of things -- do on my Android phone. Or an iPhone on Twitter things like those are things that I can I can take with me because some because the touch screen. James who could be part to what -- think the worst interface that we have right now is it the standard desktop OS is of the remote controlling what what needs to change the most in order for the premiere. -- is it is categorically the television remote control and and the fact that there are so many of them in your home. And that they are all slightly competing with each other for your attention in any given moment yet none of them are particularly good at what they do. And that's just frustration with helping you watch television imagine making a connected television or entering it connect to televisions that next. And then you have to figure out what do I use the traditional remote control with all its buttons and all of its waste. Or do what -- Google TV. Folks have done at Sony and Logitech -- -- -- Yet another even bigger remote control device to your life. And suddenly now -- -- I'm just absolutely overpopulated with. Wii's that I can interact with the videos and now the computing behaviors in my living room and it is just as he chokes out any user experience innovation are. I do believe that the -- the Sony version of the Google TV's remote control about the size of VW bug. Fifth and it -- it's just festooned with buttons. -- it -- it feels like it it feels like a really big game. Console controller that happens to have you know. Become pregnant multiple times and it's very very large and this is just compounding the problem but don't talk to us Jon stokes from from our -- talked with about the upcoming clash. Or is it emerged between TV and the -- -- you've done some work on threading on this. -- sue the web comes out of a context where -- use the mouse and keyboard and that's that's its whole history and so what the -- this most of the first wave of web enabled TVs is done is to say either won't give you a cramped keyboard or will give you something approximating a mouse so that LG things have a winner that's -- -- button where you can. You know aim at the screen and you can you know move a pointer around some of the other the Sony for instance as you mentioned has -- -- enormous. Remote control keyboard -- hybrid. And so you end up with the experience of the web ports -- your circle of one hand tied behind your back you either have a mouse or you have a keyboard. But nobody wants to give you a mouse and a keyboard but it. It was really the future is to ditch the whole thing in in goes something like a tablet for instance where -- -- on deep and rich and put it. On a multi touch device or maybe you'd do it on a netbook or on -- PC and then the TV does what it's good -- which is this. Boy now one of the things that people have been complaining that as we move towards -- Apple has been driving this multi touch and the iPhone. Is that there are no buttons -- touch which -- -- to look at it. Is that in issuers that and hold over from people like me who are used actually having physical -- I think it is an issue -- are done they'll go no you you're gonna fix -- I think it is an issue of because. Usually the human mind is really really good at finding the simplest way to accomplish that task in if -- unnecessarily complex -- what is otherwise a simple tasks like changing the volume. Where it's always in the same place and you can always go up and down that's one of the few things that a television remote as it exists today is very good. And so what I would add to -- -- mentioned earlier about ditching the whole -- With in terms of the control paradigms for these devices is that it's not just that we would have a tablet maybe for deep input as he suggests. But also adding other layers so you have voice for example which is proving to be extremely popular in the control of the Xbox including the Zune. The on demand system and now we're told by Microsoft to very soon well I'll be able to control -- Netflix queue. And are Netflix -- back using her voice so you need only have to look at -- you don't have to touch it it is simply say Xbox stopped. And the program comes to a halt its remarkably liberating now you can't use that to do a deep search. For the latest Tom Cruise movie if you want to see such a thing. That's when you would need a tablet the John is referring to and to me that's the interesting ecosystem that organs -- evolved where we have. The ability to choose the right tool at the right time because all those tools are available to you in your living room -- -- do you agree that in the future that instead of having. A remote -- or a tablet that we will. Just a automatically choose many interface models to do we want -- do our bidding that's right -- we're gonna have if you're gonna have multiple devices at your disposal phone a tablet. -- a new -- or a -- -- laptop and you'll use the device that's appropriate. To manage different parts of the TV experience you may populate your Netflix queue. Com on your PC you're on your tablet in the and you may interact with -- IQ and select items and it from the PC for more simple interface and I think that that's right and people will juggle multitude devices but it will be seamless. Now one of things we we start talking about. While -- was multi touch. And now that's become very popular and certainly anybody who uses modern tablet especially an iPad is or and I iPhone is accustomed to. The things you can do with. Not just one finger but -- hand. The other related topic that is the gestures you -- where instead of were -- He explained it I mean there's gestures that you do on a screen and then there's minority report where you're waving your hands in the air is that a an up and coming in useful new interface for anything other than games. I wanna -- on now because that's really its super critical that we understand that. Even though they connect user experience that we see -- gestures on the Xbox. Is very very good at certain types of games and hardcore gaming disease will say oh we can't do first person shooter with -- -- my answer is no not yet because wait until we add another. But got a fake rifle and your arms and you can use jester at the same time that I'm getting -- -- myself there. Winning winning gets beyond gaming to mean that's where gesture really matters because we gesture as human beings all the time. There have been to Italy -- lived in Argentina for a -- where they're very Italian in their hand gestures. Gestures are. 40% 60%. Of your communication not just your hands for your shoulders your eyebrows. And that's what's really remarkable I don't think if you go -- survey people which I do haven't done this particular survey yet. I asked -- do you want to control things with a shrug of the shoulders or a wave of the hand or your eyebrows and -- -- -- get -- done. But yet they use these gestures in their everyday lives is so intuitive and so normal and so natural. But I think you ever figures out how to get people to control computing devices with gestures. Beyond gaming environments is going to be absolutely writing the rules of future human machine interaction. Irritate something what you're describing is a boon for localization expert doesn't mean it's one thing to localize for language review -- -- A connect or -- -- a computer interface. For the differences between say the Chinese gesture language and an Italian gesture language and that sounds like an -- X I was hoping not to get into that problem is your right but I think generally -- like the attention to squeeze on the touch. Interface. Modernize the iPhone and -- -- US and -- -- will take you to court army corps. Well so we -- images to work I'll admit but the fact is gestures are very human we we use them. It's -- natural to us and we -- the abstraction layer of a mouse and keyboard is quite an abstraction. Even using a touch interface on a tablet is an abstraction. It's more direct than a mouse -- is still an abstraction. When you're using your hands minority report style and controlling things and feeling -- virtual feeling of grabbing an object in the -- removing -- from one place to another. That's a remarkably satisfying. Experience and we're seeing people respond to -- by the millions. Now you said the virtual feeling of course when you are controlling and the technology from ever are. With gestures there's -- feeling it's all invented in your mind I mean is is haptic feedback the next step for gesture interfaces. I hope so John I don't know if you have -- I've played with some model with some haptic feedback devices most recently it Nvidia's. Conference and it it it is actually. -- -- -- Easily see industrial medical applications for this is not because you can take a set of balls and you can -- them and move them around and get resistance when you run into a barrier of things like this. And so anything where you have to a home really manipulate. Some objects with like a high degree they'll leave that works. I think for rich and -- it. I am a little skeptical with gestures I think. That deer they can be tiring to do for sustained periods I think that nurse there -- contacts. -- possibly in your car in your living room. -- places were a fast gesture are a set -- gestures work better. Then stick and a mouse -- -- word from somebody. Because as this to point out the mouse and you border. Or credit expert interfaces their interfaces that you train on a new gig -- But when you train aren't in -- could -- them the you have they have a high amount of input -- leave. Anaheim -- a granular the control and you're able to really manipulate. Text strings in certain kinds of things and and and really highly detailed way -- a mouse tracking. You can get -- pixel accuracy. The -- with with their little training so I think there'll be a place for for expert interfaces that require some training. And then they'll be a place for interfaces that are a little more natural -- gestures. The other place with gestures are with some -- -- -- skepticism as. I mean we all -- Microsoft Bob -- mean computers are often really bad at understanding what we're trying to communicate and in a lot of cases gestures are communicative act. And when. Near the situation with a computer we're trying to -- up into as opposed to just manipulate it on off. In a forward backward things like this from your really trying to communicate and computers will quite often misread -- and that that's frustrating and our tolerance for that is very well. A few have an interface experience -- the computer is is even at 1% of the time. In a blatantly mystery in Q are making a large mistake. -- you're gonna find it distracting. I saw at MacWorld. While -- know the typical. Nuance dragon dictate voice recognition. Demo where the -- -- you know open new document. New paragraph. Today I want to the -- period new paragraph with its. You get one of those things wrong and the whole -- took -- screw -- I'm just gonna use the keyboard. And while it's gotten better are we ever going to get to the point where we don't have to. Say period new -- -- prayer -- which is -- compared to just going. -- press. Are we ever gonna get that when -- knows what we want when we finish the sentence for example. I don't know and I I leave that to Leo I mean half the time I don't even know what other people want you know my wife my daughter I think it's so. So I I think this is a very tall order. -- home to -- computers to interpret. Basically it is opposed to just -- Listen for a -- -- of keywords or quirky gestures -- -- -- can understand when you ask them to interpret them and when you get over the line into interpretation. The these are have a lot problems now wanna take it I -- we. I dare you to add to that though because you your 100% right John that the thing I would -- though. Is that. The way these things improve is through training and just as you said that the human can and can learn to use a keyboard a mouse to a high degree of fidelity. And precision of the same thing is true of other inputs. As well. The issue is where we are with gesture training. Is that instead of sitting in front of television and having you -- gesture over and over and over until you get it right and the computer now knows what you want. There's a world in which especially in voice recognition were eventually. Let me go ten years now you have an audio recording device attached to -- There is actually capturing everything you're saying all the time in applying all these different. Algorithms try to figure out what you were saying and then listens to what other people responded. And converts that into text as well and tries to compare whether the sense that you created match the sense that someone responded to -- with. And eventually over a year of following you around just like I learned to understand my wife and I'm sure it you do to. Is by listening to -- over and over and over until you figure of that's what she means when she says don't get me a present for Christmas this year she really means getting a present for Christmas this year. Same kind of thing that the algorithms can eventually learn old that's what he means when he says that or acts that layer means that what this is not at all. How things are done today but ten years from now it's very hard to imagine that we won't have made significant progress towards that. I thought they're -- to me -- It's it's kind of frightening but I mean we -- we do carriers since around a cellphone unit -- is our location a lot of things and that's only -- expand. It's oil -- -- that I a grid yes I. I don't com. That's why and what that is I'm not sure I mean I'm I'm a little skeptical but I can definitely see where you have the machine has a year's worth of training and has a nice cloud back and where it can capture all this data that -- throwing off -- in storage and look for patterns. Maybe. Well we're talking about a motion intent here one of -- things. Month to Rebecca ointment that I talked to the guys that the Center for Automotive Research at Stanford cars -- bigger. And what they were saying what I think they were saying there is the human machine interface when it comes to automobiles is a very tricky the -- the -- gets because you have to deal with. Attention the human stops paying attention. And unless the cars completely -- that the problem so you have to have it's they're human pay attention to what the car is saying now -- -- -- if interest in -- related to this. Is what they're saying is the car's attitude has to -- in humans so if the cars happy when you're grumpy you're gonna ignore the carcass like that screw that I -- to open. -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- Your app back your emotion. Has invited you looked at the concept of having -- technology. Kind of react to how we're feeling in order to be more effective. Aside from a car guys know. But so did the the answer to that is I've looked at it but I'm not encourage but anything that I've seen on so it's hard to comment. Because what what you see is you know we even as humans are not conscious of all the ways that we -- each other's emotions much of what we do happens below. The level of I'm so it's very hard for -- translate the rules of emotional interpretation. Into any kind of expert system but no matter how good because we can only -- conscious perceptions of -- Eyebrows -- means this -- -- Leo lips -- means that and the so many of those potential rules and we -- learning those rules more and more in the face recognition guys. Have come so far in decoding those rules but so far in terms of creating a system that can quickly determine. What your face is saying and what that might mean fear -- effect and then turning it into an output. He just because it knows that an angry does it mean it should active one particular -- -- only one way to act to me when I'm angry. That's not true the numbers as anybody who's in a long term marriage relationship not to come back there. You know that did it does depend on the context the reason why your angry not just how to treat you because you're mad that why you're mad and so it's it no no system I've seen I'm sure there's some great work being done out there are different institutes but no system I've seen has managed to solve that problem. -- The only thing that occurs to me is this were related is from you to the health product dental work on where. -- -- -- where there is a a camera in your home and -- the -- -- the place and -- they want to eventually do some -- analysis so they can tell. The late for an elderly person is that person off their medications or did they take -- much -- they -- trouble walking are they about fall and -- there's a sense of the the camera watches and does costly gait analysis to trying to discern aspect. From that actually sell more viscerally with national security you know the idea the -- camera and airport to begin analysis. Under the theory that somebody who's trying to hide something -- walk and you know a certain way may be a terrorist and the computer can pick that up so there -- these sort of specific applications for -- looking for. A home really really specific kinds of kinds of information about a person's computer or state. Let's talk a little about that we're all that development dollars are going this year which is mobile I mean Google's that you know. Most if not all their new projects -- mobile is here. What how how does the user interface for these. Small they're gonna remain small devices. How is that evolving gaming do we continue to have to -- -- and out and hunt and peck at our little touch screen or are their new ways first interact with mobile devices coming island. Glasses lost three B three B sans glasses that we're gonna seal water -- -- the bomb you know with the Nintendo DS and and there are few panel makers that are pushing us and people are already working on interfaces that take advantage of so far -- They're basically the same TV interface idea of buy it. -- -- with some added depth Ortiz forty see -- going so we've got the 3-D out so we can now see our phone in in some depth. How does that affect how we interact into it. -- I don't have a good answer their -- has all the prototypes they've seen are essentially com and not that interest and they're they're basically. Pretty -- translations of of of a standard to be interface. With with a three aspect that is not that compelling could be done away with you could collapse it back to -- it would be five. -- Yeah I'm sorry to say it's on -- percent should Toshiba was showing some of these at CES this year and and they're beautiful and they're fine. But the if it doesn't actually change the way you experience the content and it certainly -- -- input to view what you intend to input so. Until we figure out a way to make that meaningful I'm not sure it's anything more than a novelty. -- But that augmented reality and Smartphones. How much of the factors that for. For developers moving forward. The idea that you can take your phone hold it up and -- its camera -- CNET some kind of overlay of the virtual world on top of the real world. Given this is one of those areas -- we're -- -- some kind of killer app to show everyone why it matters and Google goggles is a lot of fun and there's a lot of other. Augmented reality things that allow you to play acted as if we're sort of children play acting. But real augmented reality might look like another strange phrase real augmented reality but. You know when I see for example the tablets coming out with cameras that's where -- see augmented reality potentially being much more powerful hold up that tablet. In front of you and basically be looking through a window. At a world that has its digital overlay is on top of it but. We just don't have that app that compels people to want to do this yet it might even be I thought of the assassin game. That page has to say -- for any -- into assassin games but it could be an amazing thing. To be able to sweep your tablet across of the quad -- your -- crossing from one class and other it. And MIT and and see that there's a couple of enemies in the crowd and take some shots at them -- score points and game five the whole idea of augmented reality something like that to make everybody. Try this because up until now it has costs. Circulated for over -- kill yourself certain I think I I think that the big -- enabling technology for those for the stopped is really. Some kind of higher resolution location location based chip -- -- gyro chip something that can tell. In -- within com. Well within sub meter accuracy and -- maybe within a matter of inches in -- where you point of the phone what the orientation is because in a right now. You can do location based services in a bitter that are kind of have an augmented reality XP or aspect work. You're walking by -- store may be and it can tweak it in a bit you have a sale that -- have a sale or personally at some some kinds of things like this but. You'd be able to go into a regional virus for instance and whole of the camera and look at -- sweater and get a price and other information. RR a lot of other kinds of things mean you may need to. To have. Preferable for one you need -- -- To -- to transmit camera images and and we have that now we will have a forgy but also for a lot of the more interesting augment a -- things he made remarked. You really needs to know exactly where in space the phone is positioned in what the users looking at where the user does. So and the compass by the way in the phone I have anyway is. Pretty much useless yeah so -- I mean or a patient is a very very big part of from a phone knows which way it's being held but not what direction -- pointing. Most of time let's talk about a couple different application types the big one of courses games and -- we're seeing so much innovation in control interfaces. We PS3 and connect in particular. What else is happening in the world of gaming where we're seeing innovation in user control user -- I think the what we see is mostly the multi touch stuff in of something like a river -- is a great example or in laws and those -- any of these iPad games are fantastic. And they really take advantage of the multi touch by it. You know a lot of the and I you know I talked to John. -- a lot of the a lot of guys are just sort of waiting for on the killer app of the game that really shows off. With these interface types can do because right now. A lot of games are still in a mood of okay what's -- what their previous game experience aside stroller -- first person shooter in -- things -- this -- -- stuff like that. And and you translate that to a tablet. And it's still a game experience that you've already had. But with this touch -- data on -- -- -- -- kind of waiting for. In and for that for a set of compelling truly native. Touch experiences or are compelling a truly native -- experiences of disease huge thing with them connect. Men with. Unit with moved in with Wii is a lot of cases the games are things that we've seen before. Problem buy it you you. You kind of have and an added late in new touch -- or gesture based component but it's still supply only it's not that -- became experts on the connects them. Yet -- -- that James and what about health and -- in the real things the real -- were we've seen new interfaces and open up new areas of applications and games. Is in. These fitness games where where are we going with that. They added the thing that's so remarkable about the new breed of fitness games and we're not quite there yet perfectly but most of -- -- -- -- -- connect. Is taking advantage of the fact that the -- these cameras can actually calculate the angle at which you're extending your arm. And they can do things to a level that at professional trainer. Can't really -- as a professional trainer can't locate you and be certain that your arms extended to exactly the right -- -- whereas these cameras can. And -- the fitness. Programs have tried to use this now they don't have a trainers knowledge programmed into them just yet so. But they are saying look I'm not gonna give -- full points for this exercise because your. Your -- didn't come up high enough off the ground I measured it in only chemical foot exposed come up to feed off the ground doesn't count as -- -- -- -- two feet off the ground. That kinda stuff is very very rewarding to the person who genuinely wants to improve and get. You know more dexterity you're or be more physically fit because it -- okay I can actually just do a better job and I'll be able to get that. Feedback from the screen this is -- you -- your leg behind enough now where it can go in the future is all sorts of more powerful things not just angle of your arm. But we can actually get two point where we're looking at infrared heat coming off of your body. And determined you know just how much you're working out -- is. Yes you could add a heart sensor to get your pulse rate or even blood pressure cuff and so on. To get those kinds of things. But imagine that some of that might be actually discernible at a distance by checking the rate at which. Your route respiration changes or -- at which the heat running through your body is changing. -- -- -- interest in things that could yet come out of this that wouldn't just be around fitness but could actually be medically diagnostic. I eighty hope that anybody who's in the insurance business is listening to something else that I don't want them getting all of this information on me -- -- -- Went -- and productivity are we stuck with keyboard amounts. I think that for. For basic desktop apps I mean the keyboard and bounces it's a fast and that it -- -- to do to do good the large. Insanely large number of things that we all know how to do with computers and we're gonna keep doing the money keyboard and mouse. Again that the gestures the voice the touch. I think than 90% of what we do with those kinds of interfaces will be new things that we weren't doing who were using the computer for before. But now maybe like -- and striving. And there'll be places in the driving experience where we were not using the computer. Where we're gonna start. You know with you know tracking road conditions are openly thus become. And -- the computer will give us feedback on you know. Roof conditions up ahead on and tire pressure on all in a lot of a lot of things and will be able to control what those. You know I I think as we talk -- added. I agree with John that it is the productivity issues that -- managed so much more effectively with the interface is that we have been some kind of pointer and a keyboard. But. Again it's additive there's no reason not to add these other layers so. Constant issue that I have and this sounds really small minded to me that as I'm walking down to my office in my mind I'm thinking okay -- -- -- fire this program. -- got to make sure I can get that email attachment downloaded. Open it up and make these couple of and it's. Why can't -- be issuing those those are relatively straightforward commands I could be issuing those verbally as I'm walking down the stairs to my office. To do those actions so that when I sit down fingers at the keyboard. It's ready to go it's got the right file opened its -- the right email attachment why not. And that's to me the power of adding these things is that they extend what we can do. Even when we know we're gonna actually do they do hard business. With our hands on a keyboard. I agree I would -- -- to call my computer while I'm long roundabout and to say hey can you close that file lurk in your open this file. Or can you read me back and address entry for such and such. American -- you know so that way I don't have the lake dual lot of stuff on my phone. Or things like that -- -- so what are we predict let's wrap up here what do we think get a big user interface changes that become. Mainstream in 2011 will be and then maybe 201520111. John and I think we're gonna continue to see a lot of efforts. And marriages of the web and TV I think the best ones are gonna be. Based around tab order -- Smartphone. -- -- you're able to have a separate control and input experience. On I think that these pointer based ones are or may be okay I think the keyboard based off. Is probably not gonna do so all. You know as far as connect -- there's going to be. There's going to be that a large effort to figure out like how to use that and a native says how to do more than just. -- reproduce the kinds of games that we've seen on the -- I don't know that's gonna succeed. Of course one of the great things that connect is that Microsoft admitted has made open to hackers so we're seeing a real explosion of creativity there -- currently -- stuff. -- stay tuned for that -- any any predictions for -- this year or couple years out. We know we're watching very closely this year they increased use of voice and we even though the mobile device has a really wonderful touch screen there's a lot of circumstances where it's just not. As effective to use that touch screen as it might be to just speak a few commands. Now it it makes a lot of mistakes we're seeing a lot of processing issues with you know one gigahertz processors not being powerful enough to capture the voice. Push it up to the cloud analyzed and bring him back. In a time -- and makes any sense. But it's still happen. And so we're watching in -- try to measure it see how many people use voice on a mobile device or connect. And how frequently they do it because that's the next thing to watch it's one thing -- someone did it. But it's another entirely to say they do it with some regularity so we wanna see if -- regularity starts. In this year I think voice is the thing that's that's probably the most intuitive of the tools that are currently available and because you're carrying it around with you in your pocket more and more. It seems like the next one to explode even before gesture captures. Everybody's imagination and goes -- which I think is the 2015. Then I'm gonna be looking at is what gesture things -- we have accomplished by them. Great James -- from -- on any final -- guys spent I was gonna agree I think voice has a brighter immediate future the gesture. Real problem yeah I think gestures that is a little further out but I think -- -- has been very good are we gonna start yelling at our -- soon. We may we -- -- -- I think it's more likely we're gonna be talked into our phones into our computers I mean I use school bump when I navigate I I have an Android. Phone and I I talk to it quite more often -- I type things new missile from point to a restaurant -- last night went to Gary -- attempt to scale very good so I decided. You know Gary -- -- Cisco and Google Voice finds it. And it's -- off. I'm more impressed they went to Gary -- -- restaurants. Gentleman that Jon -- -- technical thank you so much James oblivion principal analyst at -- to thank you for European. Thank you this has been report roundtable -- thanks for producing. It back next week with another great episode I don't know on what yet but it's gonna be great so stay tuned -- Twitter RAF eat for updates. -- -- -- -- -- -- -- From I'm him Oracle and Twitter but it you know follow ours so long Peretz. And James anything. -- quickly on Twitter are right guys thanks -- -- we'll see you next time they care.