25 years of the Apple MacintoshAs the Mac celebrates its 25th anniversary, CNET's Tom Krazit and Brian Tong discuss what Apple may have in store for the future. They also answer your questions about the Mac's history, from the beige box that kick-started the personal computer revolution...
[ Music ] >> All right, what's up guys. Welcome to Editor's Office Hours. I'm Brian Tom, and today we are joined by -- with staff writer for CNET news, Tom Crassnet [Phonetic]. What's going on? >> Not much. >> And you've seen him on a lot of Daily Debriefs. He covers the Apple beat and a lot of other things. And we're here really to -- as a special edition, as they say, to talk about the 25th anniversary of the Mac. So of the Mac computer, not of Apple's existence, but specifically the Mac computer, how it's evolved and how its changed over time. Now we want to kind of set things up. First of all, you know over here in the right-hand corner, this is the box where you guys can submit questions. We need questions so that we can make this show roll. So type them in there. If you don't have a user name or password just create one really quickly and it asks for an e-mail address, and then you can start interacting with us. Also, below us in the center is our live chat so you can talk with other people and just rip on what we say as well. So what we're going to do is kind of kick things off of where it all started. This is -- there's a commercial I think it was, maybe. >> Yes -- [ Multiple voices speaking ] >> Something about a football game. >> Yeah. In 1984 during the Super Bowl, the commercial that really introduced the Mac as we know it came out. So we're going to show you that. And then we're going to talk about it. So we'll see you guys in a few seconds. >> Today we celebrate the first glorious anniversary of the information [Inaudible]. For the first time in your history, a garden of pure ideology. [Inaudible] booming, secure from the pests, [Inaudible] is all powerful [Inaudible] on earth. We are one people, with one [Inaudible] one resolve, one cause. Our enemies shall taunt themselves [Inaudible]. We shall prevail! >> On January 24, Apple computer will introduce Macintosh. And you'll see why 1984 won't be like 1984. >> All right. So there was the ironic ad. And I guess, Tom, just watching that ad, what are some of the thoughts that, you know, come to your mind, or why was it such a big deal? >> Well, it's amazing imagery. You know, that you see. It's Ridley Scott coming right off of Blade Runner and that's fresh in everybody's minds. You know, 1984, the whole George Orwell book. You know, it was a big topic of discussion that year, obviously. Did these things in that book come to pass. And they really captured that. They really did a great job of blending all those things together and making it relevant for what they were talking about, which was Apple up against Big Blue and the painting of IBM as the big evil -- the big evil guy in this thing. Yeah, it's really effective. Even now, it's still -- >> Yeah. [ Multiple voices speaking ] >> People always remember it. And I think another thing that kind of sticks out is that they actually don't even show a single screen shot or really reference anything computers -- >> Where's the product. >> Yeah, you know, you don't see the product. [Inaudible] MacCarthy has a great article, if you guys are curious we've got a lot of great coverage at CNET for the Mac at 25. A lot of articles written by all of our staff writers and editors. So you could check that out. But yeah, they never even showed a screen shot. You know. They allude to Big Brother. There's no real direct reference to anything computer-like. But it still made such an impact. >> And you don't even know it's an Apple commercial until the end, right? So it really smacks you in the face. And you know, makes you go, oh, I can't wait to see what that's all about. And you know, I mean, it really was a revolution too, for its time. Which is I think why the ad was effective. It was the kind of product that people saw, even, you know, even people who hadn't seen the ad and knew it was a break throughout. >> And I think even today they all talk about, like, you know, the greatest ads of all time. I think it -- in a lot of those surveys or lists it ranks as number one. >> It's up there. Yeah. I mean, you know, you think of commercials in your life that you've seen, how many millions of commercials you've seen and how many you actually remember. You know, and this is one that people definitely remember. >> And another thing about this ad, it was really a big gamble for Apple. At that time they spent, like, something like $900,000 to produce this ad. They were -- yeah. I mean, now that's like, oh. But back then, yeah -- 25 years ago, that's a lot of money. And also the fact is they were kind of hesitant of actually -- they were potentially not going to even release that ad. And they only ran it once for the super bowel. It was never run on television after that fact. But it's still, you know, lives today. There's even like satires of it. There's a thing I guess, during the democratic nomination -- not election -- >> Primary. >> Primary. Yeah. I can't even talk. That they had -- [ Multiple voices speaking ] >> Hillary Clinton's face on it, and people watch that. So you know, it's had a lot of satire. But the imagery kind of set the tone. Now back then, Apple, you know, wasn't really that big of a player in the game. And how -- how do you think that helped I guess introduce them to, you know, consumers when they saw that ad. >> I mean, I don't think it's fair to say they weren't a big player. Don't forget about the Apple II. That was the personal computer market for a couple of years there. But they had faded a bit, the Apple III was a disaster. And the Lisa, which was the forerunner to the Mac which kind of brought this whole idea of the graphical user interface in there didn't sell all that well either. So the Mac was kind of the reintroduction of Apple to the world. And obviously, it paid off. I mean, you know, they started seeing immediate dividends in terms of market share, they started gaining, you know, share back up. They started selling an awful lot of these things. >> And it really did sort of put them on the map as a computer company. And just kept them in kind of a -- the more general consumer's mind. >> Yeah. I mean, you know, they still do that today. You know, the positions of themselves as the cool, hip, alternative to this dodgey business computer. And you know, that sort of set the tone for their philosophy in that for the next 25 years. So yeah, it was a huge moment. >> Now, you know, we talk about the Mac, but also one key component to the Mac is the fanaticism. You know, the people that follow it. And kind of the cult following. Now we actually had an opportunity to talk to two directors of the film documentary called Mac Heads and they were talking about how the kind of fans have really evolved. So we're going to show you -- it's been a minute-and-a-half clip. Show you what they had to say about their movie, and then we'll kind of talk about that and then start taking some of your questions, okay? [ Music ] >> I'm here with Colby and Ron Shelly. These guys are the directors, produces, co-writers -- everything you could think of -- of the movie Mac Heads. So we're going to take a look at a clip, and be right back. >> How has the Mac changed my life? It's kept me isolated, kept me from having a wife, kept me from having a life. >> First of all, I never knowingly slept with a Windows user. Ever. >> Now you guys interviewed a lot of different types of characters. Kind of saw some of the old school, hard core zealots. How have you seen with some of the kind of new generation, new school fans, how are they different? >> The way that we show it in the movie, the [Inaudible] compares to the key note in 2007. That [Inaudible] in the iPhone, in New York, you can see, really, the change between those hard cores and the new generation of people. >> You guys, yourselves You fan boys? Because people would assume that, oh, you're making a Mac movie, that you guys are Mac Heads yourselves. Are you guys? >> We're more film makers than Mac Heads. And I think it was important for us to keep this position in order for us to be able to explore this in a rather objective point of view. >> Now that the company is changing more to a main stream brand, how have those fans changed? >> Apple has really becoming -- always been a brand. But you know, as the more successful they are, I mean, they don't really feel that threatened as they used to do, in the '90s. As we look in the future we can really see that Apple is becoming a brand, really. >> Now you guys were isolated together. You worked on this movie together for about a year-and-a-half as brothers. [ Laughter ] >> You guys must really like each other. >> Oh yeah! >> I can't wait for this to be over so I can just get away from my brother. >> Okay, so check out the movie, and we'll see you guys later. [ Music ] >> All right guys, so that was a quick look at Mac Heads. And they kind of talked about the evolution of how Apple used to be kind of this -- the community, the fans. It was a gathering. It was a social thing. But now as the company has evolved and changed, not -- it's not just, you know, the Mac computer. It's changed. Other devices that have become almost like status symbols. Right? People are getting them because they're cool, they're edgy. How have you kind of seen how -- how I guess the fan boys have changed. >> I always kind of like to think of Apple these days as, you know, your favorite local Rock Band that suddenly got real huge. You know. And they started -- their songs are a little bit different and you don't -- you used to go to all the shows and you supported them. But now they're huge, and they don't have as much time for you. And I -- I sort of feel that's kind of happened with Apple in a way. They've gotten so big that the core community -- they're not as close to the core community as they used to be. I mean, they'd be nowhere without those people. And I think they do know that. But it's just not the same. And you see that now with their decision to bow out of Mac World. I mean, they don't see Mac World as important to them, as it was in the past. And Mac World is the place for the Mac community to gather. So you know, it's interesting to see how that's evolved. I mean, you just look at how many iPods people own. What, 70% of people in America who have a digital music player have an iPod. And they think of Apple like that. Not for the Mac. >> Not for the love of the product, the community base. >> Yeah. It's a different thing. You know, people who use Macs have a different association with Apple than people who just have iPods, much more casual with the iPod thing. >> Without a doubt. And it's kind of funny how you mention how they became so big, because the 1984 ad was kind of showing, you know, IBM as the big guy. But now in the digital music realm, Apple is kind of like the IBM of that realm. They have a closed environment that you can use their device, and they dominate the market. And so it's kind of, yeah. Just that kind of little juxtaposing position. >> They've got the world's biggest music store -- period. Not even on line. Period. Which is just crazy to think about. And obviously something that in 1984, nobody was even considering. So yeah, they're such a different company now. But that was the catalyst for the whole thing. >> Without a doubt. Okay guys, we've got a ton of questions that we want to take from you guys. So we'll just start jumping into them. Let's -- you know, let's just kind of jump here. This is -- since we're kind of reminiscing, but we will get to actually some of your other [Inaudible] questions. This question is from Bestdaniel. What's up, Bestdaniel. What was your most memorable moment using a Mac. Hmm. Or -- it's hard for us to pick our most memorable. But maybe one that you kind of remember? >> Um -- I think I remember the Mac gaming as a kid the most. Like the Oregon Trail and stuff like that. Like sneaking out of the class to get down to the computer lab and play those kinds of games. I think that -- [Inaudible] as a kid. >> Crystal Quest, you remember Crystal Quest? I think it was on the Mac Plus. There's also that weird shuffle putt game with the horror -- [ Multiple voices speaking ] >> Like, the [Inaudible] there's a zombie and a vampire, and the screen cracked. I definitely -- that's funny. Yeah. Game -- games were definitely stuck out there. >> And it's funny, because gaming now on the Mac is like an afterthought. It's gone completely the other way. If you're a serious gamer you don't have anything to do with a Mac. And Apple doesn't really care about gaming. >> Wasn't it -- God, not called Beyond Dark Castle. But it was like that guy where you shoot -- you threw rocks, and it was in catacombs. Do you remember that? >> I don't know, man. You -- [ Multiple voices speaking ] >> If someone remembers -- yeah. If someone remembers that to please tell us. I think -- I don't -- I mean, I don't know if I have many memorable Macs. But I think [Inaudible] talked about this in our article about how it -- even if you weren't necessarily an artistic person. If you had an eye for design the Mac enabled you to make those things happen. Like, for me, I didn't, you know, this is more how software has evolved. I'm semi- artistic. But being able to, you know, really just create my own web site with my own images and you know, do all that stuff. And also I think it was kind of silly. You could do this on any computer, but just being able to lay out the images right and then print out my own CD, DVD images on it. That's like, so cool. >> Yeah. I mean -- >> Being able to do it relatively easily. >> I mean, you think about this era, where everybody creates their own content, Facebook page, you've got all that stuff. You know, the Mac was about letting average people do that a long, long time ago. Just you know, creating your own designs and your own templates and your own -- I mean, desktop publishing, if you think about that. You know, I heard from a guy when we were doing this serious about how, you know, the Mac and some of the early desktop publishing programs that went along with that allowed him to found this business from this magazine that mapped -- you know, it was about a mapping thing. You know, kind of a niche thing, but it turned into a big business for the guy. So you know, definitely kind of think of Macs that way. They've always been, you know, a creative product in many -- in many ways. >> And I think it's funny, because when I used to work at -- at the Apple Source people would come in, they're like -- well, why do I want to buy a Mac. And when the company first started out a lot of people, like, well, you know, if you're into, you know, graphics and creativity, you almost position that. But now it's become such more of a broader device, you don't have to say, oh, if you want to get into graphic design or video editing, sure, those are its strengths, but you don't have to push it like that. Oh, it's only if you're creative. But we all do that now. We all shoot video, we all take a lot of pictures. And I think that is the way that Apple tries to sell the Mac is the iLife suite. Because that is the, you know, the kind of the primary difference between, you know, a Mac and a PC is you get the bundled iLife suite with every new Mac. And that sort of hits people, like parents especially. You've taken all these videos of your kid and you want to edit them so you can send them off to Grandma -- >> [Inaudible] book and all that. >> Well yeah. [ Multiple voices speaking ] >> I can't imagine doing that. But it seems a lot of people do. I mean, hey. You know, it taps into that creative instinct that a lot of people have. >> Okay, we're going to go and jump into some of the questions, and we will talk a little bit about, you know, the future of the Mac, Tom did an article about that, where they can go next. Because they are, you know, as they've evolved they've become really a more mature company with their products. Well, let's go here to Patgamer. Patgamer has this question, let me see if it popped up. [ Inaudible comments ] >> There we go. Okay. Patgamer asks do you think Microsoft has the potential to beat Apple with Windows 7. Now have you been able to kind of see Windows 7 yet, or at least some of our coverage on that? >> You know, I'm Macs all up and down my computing life. So I actually haven't had a chance to play with Windows 7 yet. But I have read a lot of what Ian [Assumed spelling] had to say about it and some other people. And you know, I mean -- I don't think it -- I guess it all depends on how you define beat. You know, are they going to put Apple out of business with Windows 7? No. Are they going take a little bit of market share back that Apple's been gaining? Maybe. You know, it's fair to say that half -- well, I don't know about half, but part of the reason why Apple gained share over the last couple of years was because Vista was a disaster. Nobody really wanted -- upgrade to Vista, you know, if they bought a new PC they just do it anyway. But people didn't go out of their way to do it. You know, and people started to look at the Mac as an alternative. I think Windows 7, it seems to me from the early returns that they're going to get some of those people back. People who have held off upgrading to a Vista machine, and probably didn't buy anything, just kept going with their XP machine, might be more inclined to upgrade to Windows 7, rather than getting a Mac. So you know, I mean, these are trade-offs, though. We don't know exactly what Snow Leopard is going to bring to the table. I mean, Snow Leopard is the next version of Mac OS X. We do know it's going to be less flashy, more -- [ Multiple voices speaking ] >> Stuff. Graphics improvements, that kind of thing. But you know, you're going have to -- you can't really evaluate the two against each other without having a chance to see what Snow Leopard is all about too. I mean, I do think that Apple had this couple of year period to itself, though, where you know, Vista wasn't doing much, people were stuck on XP, and they had this sort of high ground where they could just run those -- [ Multiple voices speaking ] >> -- kind of change that public perception, smashing on it, and smashing on it. >> So you know, I mean, I also think the important thing to note is that I think the operating system as we go forward becomes less and less important. We're doing this whole thing in a browser. He's using a Mac, I'm using a Windows machine. We've got the same -- we're looking at the same thing. I think that sort of becomes more important going forward is your connection to the Internet being the primary way that you do everything, rather than running programs on the OS itself. >> So, it comes down to preference. And we'll see what people like. >> All right. Excellent. Here's a question from Lotus 25. Lotus 25 asks us do you think that the G 4 Cube was a big hit for Apple. Now if you're talking about units sold, everyone would probably say no. But from a design perspective to showcase something unique, sure, it has its calling. But you know, when it comes down to it, if you're in a business and you've got to sell computers, it was definitely not a hit. >> No. I mean, nobody got -- nobody got real rich off the Cube. But you know, in this kind of business you have these things like Halo products. Like how they have these car shows and they have those crazy cars that make you go ooh. Nobody's ever going buy those things. But you know, they're kind of -- just showing off what you can do. I think the MacBook Air is kind of like that to a certain extent. It's not going to be a product that sells a ton of things. But it's a product that Apple can hold up and say, hey, look what we can do. And I think the Cube was kind of like that in its day. But no, it wasn't -- you know, it wasn't a big hit. It did win Johnny -- some design awards that kind of thing, burnish his credentials a little bit more. But you know, I think the Cube is funny. When I've been putting together this package I heard lots of -- [ Multiple voices speaking ] >> Passionate people on the Cube. It was just one of those products you either hated or you loved. >> Now I actually -- I actually have a Cube. And the thing about it, you know, more than anything, whether it was good or bad it at least sent a message to consumers that Apple was still willing to innovate. Because this thing was way, you know, outside the box. And you know, that's why it kind of a love-hate thing. But at least showed that the DNA of the company is willing to innovate and take risks. >> When you -- if you guys are watching this and you're sort of wondering what we're talking about here, go to cnetnews.com right now and check out the gallery we have of Macs through the year. And you can see such a profound difference in the Macs that were made, you know, in the five or six years in the '90s prior to when Mr. Jobs came back, and the Macs that were -- the Macs that were released in the three or four years after that they got back in design, they got back in color. It was like he clearly said, listen, we cannot make boring plastic white boxes any more. And I think the Cube was sort of, you know, the high water point for that strategy in a long way. And then you see after the Cube you see them going a little bit more, you know, minimalistic. They bring in the metals on the notebooks, you've got the iMac, you go with the white, and then the, you know, metallic exterior. They kind of got away from the color thing and -- [ Multiple voices speaking ] >> Yeah, this sleek modern kind of design philosophy. And so I think the Cube was kind of the high water mark of this design experimentation phase that they had in the late '90s, early 2000. All right, this is an opinion question, probably, for each of us. [ Multiple voices speaking ] >> Semi- opinion. Will Apple -- or speculation. Will Apple build 3G into the MacBook Air or any of their lab tops any time soon. >> You know, it's -- a lot of people have thought that computer companies are going to go down this road, and we've seen some people on the Windows side try this. And it's a good idea in that, you know, it's more wide spread than Wi-Fi, you can get a connection in a lot of places. And you know, it can be just as fast in some cases. But the thing is, is the carrier. You know, like, if you buy a laptop, you're not tying your laptop to a carrier for two years as well. So do you want both your laptop and your phone to be tied to that. And if you travel then you've got problems. Wi-Fi is a little bit more flexible. It allows you to basically connect anywhere because Wi-Fi is Wi-Fi. Pretty much everywhere in the world. Whereas 3G, you know, if you're in certain parts where, you know, Verizon's network is better, then are you going to have -- that's another question. Are you going to put in Verizon's 3G, are you going to be put AT&T's. I mean, it's a good idea and I'm sure they thought about it. But it's a lot more difficult to implement than it would seem. >> The infrastructure is just not there to support it the way that you would ideally hope to use it where you could go anywhere and be able to get it, it would work fine. And you won't be locked to a specific carrier. >> And that's the beauty of the USB cards too. Is that you can still get that, if that's what you want. You know, the ability to use your laptop on those networks wherever you want. Just pop in a USB and that will work fine. >> You won't be tied to that for the life of your laptop. >> Here's like, another side question, I guess, talking about 3G. Let's say there was a laptop with 3G. I mean, you have these 3G carriers continue to get loaded. Whenever you're in an area like let's say Mac World or CES, and you can tell that everyone has 3G phones, the network gets bogged down. You start adding, you know, this next evolution of laptops. To me it would -- it would have to be, you know, potentially the next generation, like the 4G, that really can support more of these devices on a larger pipe. And I think that's when you might see this come into play a little bit more. When you've got a faster connection, when you've got a more robust connection. And you know, maybe if the wireless industry ever changes the way they do business, you know, then you'd have more freedom to switch between different carriers. >> Okay. Excellent. All right, let's, you know, we can -- yeah, we'll take a couple more questions and we'll talk about the future of Apple. Let's -- let's go here. All right, I'll take this one. I don't know if -- this question is from Ralph the Dog. Ralph, what's up. Apple with Snow Leopard is not adding new features. Well, none that we know of. But they said it's more under the hood. >> They haven't emphasized. >> Yeah. Exactly. The question continues -- just to make it -- is not adding new features but just make it faster with a smaller footprint. How will this effect them in the server market. >> Yeah. I mean, that's an interesting question. I mean, you haven't -- Apple has a server product, it's called the X Serve. They never talk about it, they never really promote it or push it. >> Yeah. It's just not something they, you know, spend a lot of time worrying about. But they do have it, and people do use it. And you know, there's a school of thought that if you bring more Macs into your business that you'll want a Mac server on the back end to make it easier to manage, that kind of thing. So you know, that's -- will Snow Leopard change that. Will that make that more interesting. You know, maybe. I think there's maybe something -- you could make an argument for Snow Leopard in a smaller footprint in some sort of blade server, some sort of really small, you know, if it's running in a smaller footprint, it won't consume so much power, pack more of them in, and you know, you won't run your electric bills through the roof. I mean, I think there's maybe something to that, but I just do not think this is a strategic priority for Apple right now. I mean, I think they are really focused on the iPhone and getting that, you know, into the future. And then getting the Mac into the future. And you know, X Serve, I mean, if they're going to sell a couple, why not. Because it's not all that expensive to throw together a couple and have them just lying around. >> Okay, so you know , since you kind of segued into that, we'll take this question, then we'll talk about your article. This question is from HD top gear. What's up, HD. The question is will Apple ever introduce new products like cameras and TVs, et cetera, in the future. Well, let's hear -- what's your take on that. >> Well, you know, it's -- it's really interesting way to think about it. Because I mean, if you think about desktop computers, I mean, those are kind of going the way of the dodo. I mean, it's not the kind of product that people get all that excited about any more. But there's still computing power that you're going to want in a fixed way. You know, that you're just going to want a computer in your house. You know. You could see very easily, I think, a real Apple TV. You know, I think an Apple -- >> Integrated with a -- >> Right into the back of -- I mean, what's an iMac, really. But you know, so it's like a 42-inch iMac? I mean, that's something you might consider, if you can have the functionality of Apple TV built right into -- >> Definitely not beyond the realm of the possible. >> No. I think TVs make sense, and I think there's something to be said for Apple getting into maybe home control kinds of things. You know, if you have -- this has been one of these future things forever it seems. But you know, if you have, you know, like pretty sophisticated computers controlling your home, and then you can, you know, on your iPhone, when you're coming home you turn your lights on or you set the security system and you know, you can kind of do that already with some things. But really baking that in, is something they might want to do. Cameras, I'd be a little surprised. >> They're such a specialized market for -- [ Multiple voices speaking ] >> Trying to fiddle with that. >> Optical stuff is complicated too. >> I think it's best left to the professionals. I mean, they -- Tim Cook on their last earnings call this week basically said, listen, we're not going into a market unless we think we can make a difference. You know? And we can make a difference -- what he didn't say is we can make a difference and we can make money. And there's no guarantee that, you know, cameras, that that's something that people would look at Apple and go, oh yeah, they're right up there with Nikon and Canon and all that. So -- >> Okay. Now maybe you can kind of talk about your article where you're talking about the future of Mac and where it can go. I don't know, kind of just speak on that. >> Well, I mean -- you know, part of the theory behind that article was that the Mac is not necessarily what will propel Apple into the future, that the iPhone is really taking on that role. I mean, that's -- you know, somebody asked the question about the smaller footprint. And you know, that's what the iPhone is. Mac os with a smaller footprint. And you know, so then what can you do with that. You've seen two examples of it already in the iPhone and the iPod Touch. And you know, there's all kinds of things they can do if they make that more sophisticated, get better chips in there. But the Mac is going evolve. You know, it's not going to ever go away. And it's -- it's the kind of thing where, you know, they've made it pretty clear that they're working on a lot of multi-touch gesture kind of things. So I don't think it would be too much of a stretch to, you know, see them doing a lot of input on the screen directly with multi touch gestures. You know, voice recognition is the other one that you hear a lot about. >> We've always -- we've heard about it for years and -- [ Multiple voices speaking ] >> And -- they have it. You can order your computer around by voice, but it's not fool-proof, and it's not, you know, it's not something that mass people do. So you know, I mean, think you look at things like that. Think you look at things like mobility, and think you look at things like we were just talking about, the home control software kind of thing, those areas, that Apple might want to think about. But yeah, I think mobile computing is driving it up right now. >> Now is -- because we kind of touched upon Apple has become such a mature -- more mature company, and everyone expects, you know, these revolutionary devices, which are very hard to come by. I mean, you can't just every year put out -- that's a challenge probably, because that's kind of what people identify with them, right? >> Yeah. >> Revolutionary, innovative products. How in the future do -- do you see that, you know, being an obstacle for them, because they've become more mature and more fine tuning the revolutionary products they've made. >> Yeah. You know, that's the kind of thing that -- it's a nice problem to have. You know, if you've trained people to expect greatness from you, then living up to that greatness is a nice problem to have. I mean, it's hard. You've set the bar really high. But hey, at least they're not expecting you to screw up and they're just glad you got something out the door that doesn't suck. [ Laughter ] >> So you know, it's a problem, though, for Apple. You know, because you can't -- you can't wow people every year, you can't introduce things like the iPhone every year. You can barely introduce things like that once a decade. So I -- it's going to be interesting to see how they handle that and what types of things that they come up with. And I don't know. I -- I couldn't -- I wouldn't place a bet either way at this point. >> Now also you know, Apple does do software, you know -- [ Multiple voices speaking ] >> And so do you have any thoughts of where you feel, you know, they might -- what direction they could be moving in with, you know, with their software and their products? >> Well, the iLife suite will continue to evolve. I mean, without a doubt, that's the, you know, as we said earlier, one of the primary selling points for the Mac. I mean, we talked about this a little bit in some of our articles this week. But what Apple needs to work on these days too is integration with the Internet, integration with the cloud, improving things like Mobile Me, making parts of the Mac, the iLife suite and just all the parts of the OS hook in better to the Internet. And allow you to exchange stuff back and forth with your iPhone, with your iPod Touches, with your I cameras and I TVs or -- whatever it is. >> Your I -- whatever devices. [ Laughter ] >> Yeah. So -- you know, that, I think, is what we're going to see a lot of from Apple, is improving their -- you know, their services around the Internet. And you know, that's going to be interesting, because that's something they've historically not been good at. I mean, Mobile Me -- >> We pay. You know, people pay for that. But there's competing services that are equally as good, if not better, that are free. More storage, more -- >> Yeah, they give you a lot of storage. But they do charge, you know, a premium, really, for the kind of service. So you know, I think that's something they're going to have to work on. And I think that's something to watch. I mean, because that's -- that's an area where the competition is arguably ahead. >> Okay, we're going to take -- we'll take two more real quick questions. Lotus 25 asks about how about an Apple gaming console. >> Oh man. They tried that, remember that? That didn't -- the Pippin wasn't exactly Apple's greatest product ever. I mean, you hear this rumor come up a lot. And it's not -- I don't think it's totally out of the question. I mean, I think it's something that -- I mean, everybody's been trying to figure out how to, you know, marry the TV and your computing and all that, and I think you've seen a lot of that happen right now with Xbox and PlayStation. You know, TV set top box. >> Exactly. I mean that's -- you can do Netflix streaming, you can play your games, you can still do a lot of, you know, chatting and that kind of thing. So you know, if you look at that living room box, you know, it Apple going to want to get into that somehow. I think they are. I think Apple TV is probably the way that they'll do that. Whether they turn that into a gaming console or not is a bit of a different story, you know. But they can definitely, you know, beef up Apple TV and make that sort of their home entertainment system product. >> Okay, and then the last question. Do you think we will see a netbook or something like that any time soon. Everyone keeps, you know, bouncing this one around. >> This is the other thing that they talked about on their earnings call this week is, you know, Basically, at the moment, they don't like netbooks. Of course Apple has a history of saying they don't like things, and meaning that we're working on it, we just haven't liked the one that we made yet. >> Exactly. >> It's not our type of product. >> I mean, what Apple does like to do when they get into markets, though, is make sure they come in with something good the first time. >> For the most part. >> And make it a premium product. Make it something that offers an experience beyond what you get right now in a netbook. And so if they're going to do a netbook -- and I wouldn't be surprised if they're working on one -- they're going to make sure they get it right and they're going to make sure that it does something beyond what you can currently do with netbooks. And so if I had a bet, I would say that may not come out until the end of the year at best -- or maybe next year. >> Yeah, I mean, I've been bouncing the idea around. And like you said, if they did something like that, it wouldn't necessarily be the netbook as we know it today, but something like a 999 type device that is as sexy, but is, you know, still a regular Mac experience in a, you know, in a [Inaudible] so we'll see how that shakes out. >> That's a good point too, because these PC companies aren't making a ton of money on these netbooks. They're kind of a real thin margins on them. And I don't know if Apple would want to get in on that, just for the sake of getting in on it. So -- >> All right guys, that was cool. Thanks for coming out, Tom. >> Sure. [ Multiple voices speaking ] >> I'm sure we'll have him here plenty of other times. That's going to do it for Editor's Office Hours, our special Mac at 25 edition. Come back next week. Every Tuesday, it's going to be 11:30 west coast time, 2:30 east coast time. So thanks for joining us, and we'll see you guys next week. >> See you. ^M00:32:38 [ Music ]