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General discussion

Winston Churchill on Moslems

Jan 14, 2015 12:33PM PST

"How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live. A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property - either as a child, a wife, or a concubine - must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men. Thousands become the brave and loyal soldiers of the faith: all know how to die but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science, the science against which it had vainly struggled, the civilisation of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilisation of ancient Rome."
= Winston S. Churchill, The River War

"...But the Mahommedan religion increases, instead of lessening, the fury of intolerance. It was originally propagated by the sword, and ever since, its votaries have been subject, above the people of all other creeds, to this form of madness. In a moment the fruits of patient toil, the prospects of material prosperity, the fear of death itself, are flung aside. The more emotional Pathans are powerless to resist. All rational considerations are forgotten. Seizing their weapons, they become Ghazis as dangerous and as sensible as mad dogs: fit only to be treated as such. While the more generous spirits among the tribesmen become convulsed in an ecstasy of religious bloodthirstiness, poorer and more material souls derive additional impulses from the influence of others, the hopes of plunder and the joy of fighting. Thus whole nations are roused to arms. Thus the Turks repel their enemies, the Arabs of the Soudan break the British squares, and the rising on the Indian frontier spreads far and wide. In each case civilisation is confronted with militant Mahommedanism. The forces of progress clash with those of reaction. The religion of blood and war is face to face with that of peace."
= Winston S. Churchill, The Story of the Malakand Field Force

Discussion is locked

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I guess he converted to Islam.
Jan 14, 2015 1:10PM PST
Sir Winston Churchill 's family feared he might convert to Islam

In the public eye, Sir Winston Churchill's long political career earned him a place among the greatest of Britons.

But what may come as a surprise is that he was a strong admirer of Islam and the culture of the Orient — such was his regard for the Muslim faith that relatives feared he might convert.

The revelation comes with the discovery of a letter to Churchill from his future sister-in-law, Lady Gwendoline Bertie, written in August 1907, in which she urges him to rein in his enthusiasm.

In the letter, discovered by Warren Dockter, a history research fellow at Cambridge University, she pleads: "Please don't become converted to Islam; I have noticed in your disposition a tendency to orientalise [fascination with the Orient and Islam], Pasha-like tendencies, I really have."
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And obviously he didn't
Jan 14, 2015 7:58PM PST

But it didn't stop him from being open to the idea and recognizing that Islam could be bastardized by far too many into something dangerous...........

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RE: obviously he didn't
Jan 14, 2015 9:31PM PST

Sometimes things aren't so "obvious".

Churchill's fascination led him and his close friend Wilfrid S. Blunt, the poet and radical supporter of Muslim causes, to dressing in Arab clothes in private while in each other's company.

In October 1940, as Britain faced its darkest hour against Nazi Germany, Churchill approved plans to build a mosque in central London and set aside £100,000 for the project. He continued to back the building of what became the London Central Mosque in Regent's Park


Recall the uproar about building a mosque blocks away from Twin Towers?

Can we compare Obama to Churchill?

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They were both wrong
Jan 14, 2015 10:55PM PST

in allowing it to even be considered let alone built..........look how well 'look the other way tolerance' has worked out for France and other countries. Did you know we have quite a few of these 'isolated' communities here in the USA, including one in Massachusetts that literally has a terrorist training camp?

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RE: terrorist training camp?
Jan 14, 2015 11:12PM PST
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Nope....THESE
Jan 14, 2015 11:55PM PST
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If I click on one of those links
Jan 15, 2015 12:14AM PST

Will the FBI be watching me?

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OK...I clicked the first link on the page
Jan 15, 2015 12:25AM PST
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OK...
Jan 15, 2015 12:36AM PST

Your link is from May 2013.........has anything come of their investigation? Nope.........

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Have there been any attacks?
Jan 15, 2015 12:50AM PST

Do you think they should tell "everything"?

WHY would they tell everything?

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Here's a list
Jan 15, 2015 3:58AM PST
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RE: Both of our countries HAVE been attacked.....
Jan 15, 2015 4:26AM PST

Both of our countries HAVE been attacked.....where have YOU been?

I've been right here...at the keyboard...YOU, where have YOU been?

I asked about "attacks" that have been linked to these "training camps" you're complaining about.

one of your links claims

being instructed in the operation of AK-47 rifles, rocket launchers and machine guns and C4 explosives.

I can provide a link to a white supremacist group operating a training camp in America doing exactly the same thing.

I guess both groups aren't doing anything illegal.

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PS
Jan 15, 2015 4:52AM PST

Remember "back in the day" gangsters all over the country...getting away with murder and other stuff.

UNTIL something called RICO was passed.

Before Congress enacted laws that specifically combat organized crime, prosecutors found it very difficult to end these rackets. Prosecutors could often convict the lower ranked members of the organizations, because they were the ones who actually performed the illegal activities. However, the masterminds behind the organized crime rings were often much harder to prosecute because they couldn't be directly connected to any of the crimes.

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JP, you just described
Jan 15, 2015 5:31AM PST

our President with that RICO description.

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RE: you just described
Jan 15, 2015 5:36AM PST

Well...he's just one person...no longer in control...build a fire under some people...see what THEY do.

good luck.

Try not to let your tears put out the fire.

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(NT) France has always been hostile to its Islamic minority.
Jan 15, 2015 4:00PM PST
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don't you recognize an insult when you see it?
Jan 15, 2015 3:57AM PST

She knew how he really felt and was trolling him.

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don't you recognize an insult when you see it?
Jan 15, 2015 3:57AM PST

She knew how he really felt and was tweaking or insulting him.

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Are you sayin' she's a tweaker?
Jan 15, 2015 4:35AM PST

What's the difference between a crackhead and a tweaker?
The crackhead will steal your s**t and bounce--the tweaker will steal your s**t and then help you look for it.

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Actually Churchill had a great deal of respect and sympathy
Jan 15, 2015 3:58PM PST

for, and connections with Britain's Jewish community. There is a documentary called A Strange Obsession, about Churchill's friendliness to many in Britain's Jewish community, an extremely unfashionable attitude at the time when anti-Semitism was commonplace among the English upper-crust. All you need to do is read a few Dorothy L. Sayers novels to encounter it.

Churchill was in the last cavalry charge of the British military's cavalry at the battle of Omdurman in the Sudan. General Kitchener had been sent to crush the "jihadis" of the day, the people who killed General "Chinese" Gordon at Khartoum under the leadership of "the Mahdi". The book about the Malakand Field Force was written when he was in his mid twenties. I'm sure it shows up in the Wikipedia entry on WLSChurchill. Gordon was another of those attracted to "Oriental" things, places and ideas, rather like T.E. Lawrence a few decades later.

Orientalism then meant a far wider thing than it does now, and included Islam, and Judaism, and Hinduism and Buddhism and far far more besides. Essentially Asia began at Constantinople and continued eastward all the way to Japan and south through Arabia, India and Ceylon, Indonesia, Borneo and the Philippines. An appreciation of anything in that vast and complex area earned a person a great deal of suspicion from most British people regardless of class Kim Philby's father was one of those who hated Britain and lived most of his life in Egypt and the Middle East. Not surprising that Philby junior became one of the more loathsome spies of the 30's through to the mid 50's. Pity someone didn't shoot him when he was reporting on the Fascist takeover in Spain for the Times of London and passing information to the Soviets. It might have saved a lot of lives and a lot of trouble.

Chaim Weitzman, founder of Israel, who was in British Intelligence during WW2, was described as " a great Oriental presence" by some of the British secret service and civil servants who dealt with him.

Rob