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Wind Turbines still killing eagles

by TONI H / August 16, 2011 6:08 AM PDT

The Government has known about this for at least the last six years and nothing has been done about it. No fines, no prosecution, nada....and yet if a citizen killed a golden eagle they would be looking at a possible $10K fine and time spent in a federal jail.

The Feds couldn't jump fast enough to fine oil companies over less than 100 birds killed from oil spills or to shut down agriculture over a freaking 1" fish, etc...so why is nothing being done over protected species of birds?

http://www.theolympian.com/2011/06/10/1682112/turbines-killing-protected-eagles.html

There is a CA mandate that 1/3 of all energy has to be from wind turbines within the next few years...

This isn't the only state with problems with the turbines with regard to birds and bats...and so far, everybody in authority is looking the other way in order to continue this ridiculous 'green energy' agenda.

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We could cook them at the same time?
by R. Proffitt Forum moderator / August 16, 2011 6:14 AM PDT
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They're not killing them, they are commiting suicide.
by JP Bill / August 16, 2011 12:29 PM PDT
THIS is killing them

I know you believe in coal power. Where was the outrage then? You didn't have internet? you didn't have coal mines? You didn't have Obama?

To summarize

1 subject line....4 questions ....1 statement....1 link
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She's just pointing out the hypocrisy in environmentalism
by Steven Haninger / August 16, 2011 7:11 PM PDT

It's not about the birds but about justification. I believe she's referencing some controversy in the '70s regarding the snail darter (the one inch fish) and a dam project. You can look that up if you wish but environmental groups wanting to kill the dam project used the possible extinction of of this barely known fish as justification to block the project. Wind power is a pet of environmental groups but Toni is pointing out that we see no protests by them over the dead eagles. I would wonder if the same would be true if coal fired power plants were in place but the birds were being found dead at the bottom of their tall stacks. Environmental groups don't care much for the hazards created by burning coal but wind power will have its hazards as well.

I don't have a solution that avoids a slow return to the stone age but I do understand the lack of logic and good reason from some of the energy arguments.

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Response
by JP Bill / August 16, 2011 9:29 PM PDT

From Toni's link

The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service authorizes limited incidental
mortality and disturbance of eagles at wind facilities, provided the
operators take measures to mitigate the losses by replacing older
turbines with newer models that are meant to be less hazardous to birds,
removing turbines located in the paths of hunting raptors and turning
off certain turbines during periods of heavy bird migration.


They don't state what that number is.

MORE are killed here

The U.S. Department of Agriculture, through an interagency
agreement with the Federal Aviation Administration, compiles a database of all
reported bird/wildlife strikes to U.S. civil aircraft and to foreign carriers
experiencing strikes in the USA. Over 87,000 strike reports from over 1,650
airports have been compiled, 1990-2008 (over 7,500 strikes in 2008). The FAA
estimates that this represents only about 20% of the strikes that have
occurred.


many more are probably killed flying into skyscraper windows at night.

From what I've seen of the eagles that fly in my neck of the woods...they fly in circles looking down at the ground for their prey.

They have to learn to look where they are going also...not just at the ground.

comparing someone intentionally killing and eagle to building something and having the eagle "fly into that structure" ON ITS OWN is not a fair comparison.

In my opinion THIS is the main point of Toni's post

this ridiculous 'green energy' agenda.

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They have to learn to look where they are going also...
by TONI H / August 16, 2011 10:56 PM PDT
In reply to: Response

not just at the ground......yeah right.

That's about the most asinine statement I've ever read from you and there have been plenty to choose from. They are predatory birds...their food source 99% of the time is on the ground. They have NO predators seeking them out from the air so why in the world would they HAVE to look forward? And how do you suggest that they 'learn' this amazing suggestion of yours?

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re: They are predatory birds...
by JP Bill / August 16, 2011 11:16 PM PDT

They are predatory birds...their food source 99% of the time is on the ground

Didn't I say much the same thing

they fly in circles looking down at the ground for their prey.

so why in the world would they HAVE to look forward?

WHY? you ask..... so they don't fly into objects


we could cover the blades of the wind turbines with a wire cage that would prevent the birds from contacting the props.

That's about the most asinine statement

Now we're getting somewhere...how bout fitting them with contacts, since above link talks of a "blind spot" in a birds vision.

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Also, Toni...
by J. Vega / August 17, 2011 12:49 AM PDT

Also Toni, I doubt that they do much hunting at night.

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Of course you may or may not know that raptors
by Steven Haninger / August 16, 2011 11:01 PM PDT
In reply to: Response

cannot see straight ahead. Their eyes are on the sides of their heads. They can fly right into an object without seeing it and learning to avoid windmills might not be an option.

Almost anything that might be of benefit will have drawbacks as well. It's of matter of what we are willing to sacrifice. In the case of the snail darter, it was a rare fish that humans had no real use for...maybe as bait? Of course snail darters would have objected to the dam project. I believe it was already suggested that wind turbines would have negative consequences and the hazard to birds was just one of them. My take on Toni's post was one of which was more worth the sacrifice and who was objecting to it. It was environmental groups wanting to save the snail darter rather than have a dam that would provide for humans. We don't know what the larger impact would be if the small fish was lost but it would seem to me that the loss of these raptors and other birds will have a greater impact on humans. This doesn't mean I think we should abandon wind turbines for their sake any more than it should mean we abandon the dam for the fish. But there is hypocrisy involved here that is quite easy to see.

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RE: there is hypocrisy
by JP Bill / August 16, 2011 11:40 PM PDT

Birds have been flying into buildings, aircraft, power lines for years, NO problems, NO crying about the poor birds, Now they build a wind turbine and the birds fly into them...NOW there is a problem.

Where's the hypocrisy? From the other side?...they weren't concerned before but they are now?

BTW...I love birds as long as they aren't dropping any air mail messages on me, or squawking.

perhaps we could fit them with a third eye...in the middle of their forehead, fit them with a camera?

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I can't help but notice that your examples of obstacles
by Steven Haninger / August 16, 2011 11:56 PM PDT
In reply to: RE: there is hypocrisy

are all man-made. It appears to me that such is what environmental impact studies are about but that's not an exact science either. Of course environment isn't something that's just supposed to be lovely to look at. It provides us with support and in ways that aren't always clear to us.

BTW, don't knock bird crap. It makes good fertilizer and I used composted chicken manure in my veggie garden. I could offer you some delicious tomatoes...partially courtesy of our feathered friends. Wink

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Speaking of some delicious tomatoes
by JP Bill / August 17, 2011 12:02 AM PDT

some growing here...still very green....but big and lots of them.

Rumors of fried green tomatoes being on the menu.

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My mistake
by Steven Haninger / August 17, 2011 1:00 AM PDT
Some raptors cannot see well straight ahead. Owls are raptors. Their eyes see forward but most birds must tilt their heads to see prey.
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It does appear that some environmentalists
by Steven Haninger / August 17, 2011 8:29 AM PDT

have taken this windfarm to task.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtgBWNKwBkE&feature=related

These turbines are quite different from the ones I've seen in NW Indiana and NE Illinois. These newer ones should prove to be better in some respects. But this does show one downside and that is that turbines won't just be erected and produce energy forever. They will need to be maintained and also replaced at some interval. I would think that, in order to be an efficient alternative energy source, they should be able to produce more energy during their lives than the entire amount spent in putting them in place and keeping them working. This might be difficult to put on any kind of spreadsheet and calculate.

But, just for fun, I found this video of the same area of some railroad activity. If you skip ahead to just about minute 3:45, you should see a rare and amazing site. Happy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Our2q2n_H2k&feature=related

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Was that a tourist train?
by Bill Osler / August 22, 2011 10:19 PM PDT

I didn't think there were any steam engines in regular commercial service.

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Not sure....looks like a mix of cars
by Steven Haninger / August 23, 2011 1:43 AM PDT

I also noticed a diesel/electric in the string. Just in case, maybe? Somewhere I read that the big steam engines were more powerful than their modern replacements but never tried to verify that.

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A surprising twist to this argument.
by MarkFlax Forum moderator / August 22, 2011 4:54 AM PDT

I'm a supporter of wind turbine electric generation, but in fairness to any discussion, I thought I would raise this;

Do wind turbines block detection of forbidden nuclear tests?.

It seems N.Korea can test all they want then! Happy

Mark

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Maybe even another twist
by Steven Haninger / August 22, 2011 9:13 PM PDT

just so we don't run out of things to worry about. I know that some underground creatures are sensitive to vibration. Worms are one such critter. They use certain vibrations to know when to surface. I don't know how it will affect those who live below ground in these or nearby areas or what the affect could be if they are disturbed.

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