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Win 7 prints all documents shifted 1/4 inch to the left.

by aliceabusmus / January 21, 2010 10:46 AM PST

I have 4 computers on a wireless network, two XPs, a Win 7 Home 64 bit and a Win 7 Pro 32 bit. We have two printers, an HP 7410 All-in-One connected wirelessly and a Minolta-QMS PagePro 1250 connected by USB to one of the XPs.

ALL documents in ALL software printed from EITHER Win 7 computer to EITHER printer come out shifted about a quarter of an inch to the left each and every time.

ALL documents in ALL software printed from EITHER XP computer to EITHER printer come out centered normally.

All documents in ALL software appear normal on screen on ALL four computers.

I noticed this issue the day we got our first Win 7 -- not until I got a second one and saw the same problem did I think that the issue isn't me.

The Win 7 Home 64 bit is a Dell Studio 1555 which came with the OS pre-installed. I have the first prints I made within hours of taking it out of the box -- they are all shifted about a quarter inch to the left. The Win 7 Pro 32 bit was originally an XP -- when it was, it printed correctly. The hard disk crashed, I bought a new disk and and installed -- not upgraded -- brand new copy of Windows 7 Pro. Each and every print to either printer since then is shifted about a quarter inch to the left.

The current work around is to print from one of the XPs -- but eventually, I'm not going to have one. I've scoured the net and didn't find this issue mentioned. Is it just me? Where do I try to attack this? For most stuff we don't really care about the quarter inch, but when trying to print business cards to pre-cut Avery stock, it's annoying.

I haven't a clue *where* the problem could be -- unless this is a problem with Windows 7. But if that were the case, I'd see other people asking about this on the net, right? Could it be that both of my printers are fairly old and this doesn't happen with newer printers?

Oh, and printing to CutePDF gives a correctly centered PDF.

I'm completely stumped.

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This one might be
by R. Proffitt Forum moderator / January 21, 2010 11:03 AM PST

Under your control. See if the printer has an unprintable area setting or margin. Move that up but 0.25 inches.

This is not a Windows 7 exclusive. I saw this on other printers from Windows 95, 98, 2000, etc.
Bob

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Have you
by peacox / January 22, 2010 12:48 PM PST
In reply to: This one might be

Compared windows test prints done from printer properties on each system?

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Yes I have.
by R. Proffitt Forum moderator / January 22, 2010 12:54 PM PST
In reply to: Have you

But the original poster may be able to fix this.

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I printed test pages -- they were NOT shifted!
by aliceabusmus / January 22, 2010 3:01 PM PST
In reply to: Have you

That surprised me. I printed from Win 7 to each of the printers and then did the same thing from XP. The left margins are identical in all four prints. What does that tell me?

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I am at a loss
by peacox / January 23, 2010 6:59 AM PST

for an explanation but I have just done this test.
1.In windows 7 using MS Word 2007 I created 3 docs test1 test2 test3.
2.In page setup on doc test1 I adjusted the margins printed and saved
3.Same for test2 but different margin size printed and saved
4.Test3 left unchanged printed and saved
5.All three docs copied to flash drive
6.Flash drive plugged into xp system
7.all three docs printed with no changes to margins produced exact copies of docs printed from win 7.
Environment is same as yours XP Home 32bit, vista Ult 32bit, and win 7 Ult 64bit, on a lan sharing the one printer USB connected to xp.

The trouble with margins is that they are very adjustable and the adjustment is remembered by the document when it is saved.

The other point worth mentioning is that with most word processors what you see is not always what you get unless you are displaying the document in Print View. In some applications the margin adjustment can be done in Page Setup in others it is in Print Preview.

The uneven margins you describe are reminiscient of Gutter Margins designed to allow extra space on one side to accomodate binding the page by punched holes or some sort of clip.

If I seem to be explaining the obvious, please excuse me, my intention is only to help.

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Try the printer margins. Not in Word.
by R. Proffitt Forum moderator / January 23, 2010 10:54 AM PST
In reply to: I am at a loss

As I don't own your setup I can't tell if you are adjusting Word margins or your printer margins. My Epson has this unprintable area I can adjust too.

Sorry to say it's not as easy as it should be but if you try hard enough I bet you find it.
Bob

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Perhaps a hint would help?
by Bill Osler / January 24, 2010 1:22 AM PST

I don't remember seeing any settings for gutter, margin or other non-printable areas except in specific applications. The printer I use now certainly has no obvious system-wide settings for those things.

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It's a printer thing.
by R. Proffitt Forum moderator / January 24, 2010 3:12 AM PST
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No, this cannot be normal.
by aliceabusmus / January 24, 2010 4:56 AM PST
In reply to: It's a printer thing.

It is unacceptable and NOT normal that a PDF printed from one computer would come out differently on the same printer, unless by "normal" you mean "buggy". I have a PDF of a sheet of business cards. There is no way to change the margins from within a PDF. If I print from an XP, I get ten perfect business cards. If I print the same PDF from a Win 7, the print is shifted over to the left just enough so that they are all unusable as they print over the pre-cut divisions. There is no way to add a 1/4 of an inch to the left margin. No difference printing from the MSWord or Open Office. Again, the print-preview is alwasy perfect, the PDF looks perfect onscreen.

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I agree.
by R. Proffitt Forum moderator / January 24, 2010 5:15 AM PST

I agree that this should not be so but after dealing with printing since chain printer days I can say it is sadly normal to find printouts to vary like this.

I've learned to jump through a lot of hoops over the years but how to work this issue when I can't find a dialog box for your printer or if the owner won't believe then what to do next?

Windows has never been a good TYPE SETTER and if you lived through the DTP and FONT WARS then you know this.

Ok, let's find your printer's manual.

ftp://ftp.minolta-qms.com/pub/crc/out_going/manuals/1250w/user_e.pdf

Page 6-3 notes the printable area.
But the real area of interest is 4-3 the Paper Tab.

I have not read where you use this to "Fit printed documents to a specified media size". I could use this to correct where a document lands on the sheet.

But then again we have users that will never want to learn about such arcana and maintain that such things should "just work."
Bob

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No, this cannot be normal CONFIRMED!
by tomvergona / February 7, 2011 10:14 PM PST

I too, own a HP7410xi that worked just fine under XP and now in Windows 7 my print outs are all shifted to the left by at least a 1/4". This is a driver problem that MS and HP are ignoring, due to the age of the printer.
What really steams me is the problem with business cards; I ruined two sheets of glossy artwork because the image was too far to the left.
Has anyone tried to contact HP about this problem?
Regards,Tom V.

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Again.
by R. Proffitt Forum moderator / February 7, 2011 11:57 PM PST

This discussion is quite long but given the settings change from OS to OS, machine to machine and Windows, PCs, these printers are not mandated to print the same from machine, OS and the next "computer" we get to dive in and change a setting as need be.

This is why I learned long ago to look at all the settings.
Bob

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Well at least I know it isn't Windows 7
by aliceabusmus / January 23, 2010 12:36 PM PST
In reply to: I am at a loss

Thank you for going through all the trouble to do this print test. This at least tells me that the problem isn't a bug in Win 7. That tells me the problem IS localized somewhere in my house and I should be able to track it down eventually, though I'm currently stumped.

May I ask what printer you are using and how old it is on the possiblity that some of the older printer like mine may have less than perfect drivers? Maybe the answer is that I need to get a new printer or two.

The issue isn't margins, though I realize I can always change the left margin on a word document to compensate. The issue is everything is shifted to the left slightly when printed from the Win 7s. If I've got a non-editable PDF that needs to be printed precisely, I'm forced to use an XP. There doesn't appear to be any way to physically adjust either of the printers -- and if I could, then the XPs would print shfited to the right.

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Not sure how to implement this suggestion.
by aliceabusmus / January 22, 2010 3:11 PM PST
In reply to: This one might be

You said:

"See if the printer has an unprintable area setting or margin. Move that up but 0.25 inches."

Where do you suggest I do this? I looked in "Printer Properties" and "Printer Preferences" for each printer -- didn't see where I could address this.

Also, if you played with this setting on your system, would you end up in the situation I'm in -- seeing one thing on the screen but getting a printout shifted to one side or the other? I thought that if you try to print in the unprintable area, your print merely gets cut off, not shifted.

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The setting varies with
by R. Proffitt Forum moderator / January 22, 2010 10:17 PM PST

The printer driver.

First let me state that we are not dealing with a type setting or desktop publishing system. I take from your posts you thought you were.

Ok, for example the usual page setup
http://www.mintprintables.com/inc/img/print-help/firefox-margins.png
has margins we can adjust.

But I take it that adjusting is unacceptable?

I know that finding the unprintable area control panel will be hard since not all page setup panels have that.
Bob

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I don't think that unprintable area is the problem
by aliceabusmus / January 24, 2010 5:13 AM PST

"The setting varies with ... The printer driver."

Ok ... so what do I do?

"First let me state that we are not dealing with a type setting or desktop publishing system. I take from your posts you thought you were."

No.

XP #1 prints to Printer #1 perfectly from all software including PDFs.
XP #2 prints to Printer #1 perfectly from all software including PDFs.
XP #1 prints to Printer #2 perfectly from all software including PDFs.
XP #2 prints to Printer #2 perfectly from all software including PDFs.

Win7 #1 prints to Printer #1 shifted to the left from all software including PDFs.
Win7 #2 prints to Printer #1 shifted to the left from all software including PDFs.
Win7 #1 prints to Printer #2 shifted to the left from all software including PDFs.
Win7 #2 prints to Printer #2 shifted to the left from all software including PDFs.


"But I take it that adjusting is unacceptable?"

Yes, it is unacceptable. First you can't adjust the margins on a pre-existing PDF. Second, adjusting margins on complicated documents is not always simple. Third, no one wants to or should have to adjust the margins on hundreds of documents.

"I know that finding the unprintable area control panel will be hard since not all page setup panels have that."

I think "unprintable area" is a red herring. Documents with a 1 inch margin are shifted 1/4 of an inch.

It cannot be any physical settings on the printer -- there are none that I can find, and if there were, changing them would make printed from the XPs inaccurate.

It cannot be any of the software as all behave the same.

If it isn't a bug in Windows 7, I suppose it must be a shortcoming in the printer drivers for these older printers. At this point, the only thing I can think to try is to buy a new printer and see if it works properly from both operating systems.

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I hear you.
by R. Proffitt Forum moderator / January 24, 2010 5:19 AM PST

But you are the one with the problem to solve. I read your posts again and it is one I've solved here with what is a minor tweak.

Let's say you are correct and Windows 7 is at fault. What are your chances of getting MSFT to fix this?

I think you may need to dig in and learn about adjusting printable areas in the PRINTER DRIVER. Not the documents.
Bob

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I know it's my problem; if you solved it, I don't see it.
by aliceabusmus / January 24, 2010 11:18 AM PST
In reply to: I hear you.

"I think you may need to dig in and learn about adjusting printable areas in the PRINTER DRIVER. Not the documents."

Nothing in the Minolta manual -- either the pages you mentioned or any others -- allows me to change the printable area or force the image to be printed a quarter inch to the right. Page 4-3 is the printer properties -- I'm very familiar with this. Nothing there add a quarter inch of dead space on the left edge of the print. Changing the size of the paper will not increase the left margin.

I've gone cover to cover on this manual as well as the manual for the HP 7410 (http://h10032.www1.hp.com/ctg/Manual/c00235090.pdf). I can find nothing that would even help to work around the issue.

At least a dozen, maybe two dozen computers have used these two printers, including XPs and Macs. Only since we got Win 7 do I see this problem.

For simplicity, I'm going to focus on just the HP and Win 7. I'll see if I can get help from either of the directly.

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This is really intriguing
by peacox / January 24, 2010 6:25 PM PST

do you mind a few more questions?
If the left margin is 1/4 in narrower is the right margin correspondingly wider?

Is the paper size correctly specified in both types of system. If the win 7 systems think they are printing to Letter Paper and the printer is loaded with A4 stationary, A4 is 6mm narrower than letter and 6 mm is about 1/4 inch.
Make sure that Printer preferences for each printer is identical in all 4 systems.

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More Thoughts on Paper size
by peacox / January 24, 2010 7:00 PM PST

If you are using pre prepared paper/card it is probably none standard size and not well defined in the win 7 driver, on my system there is a choice of only 6 standard stationary sizes and 3 envelope sizes whereas in the xp driver there is more choice including a User Deined size.

Another setting that could come into play here is Scale to Fit Paper or some such wording Check that all 4 systems are consistant with that setting. I am sure this can be fixed so keep on experimenting but do all your production work from XP.

I'm going to get some sleep now as it is 11.58 pm on Monday 25th

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Intriguing ---
by aliceabusmus / January 25, 2010 1:23 AM PST

"do you mind a few more questions?"

Of course not, I *am* the one with the problem.


"If the left margin is 1/4 in narrower is the right margin correspondingly wider?"

Exactly. The print is exactly the right size, just shifted about a quarter of an inch to the left. Half inch margins come out 1/4 and 3/4. Top and bottom seem to be correct.


"Is the paper size correctly specified ..."

Yes. The only paper we have is 8.5 x 11 aka "letter". All the settings are either 8.5 x 11, letter, or both.


"If you are using pre prepared paper/card ... "

The Avery card stock for creating business cards that we were using is also exactly 8.5 x 11. Neither the printer nor the operating system 'knew' I was using this stock as all I did was print a the same PDF that I'd used to make cards before I got Windows 7. Just printing an 8.5 x 11 page to an 8.5 x 11 sheet.


"Another setting that could come into play here is Scale to Fit ..."

In the specific case of creating business cards, scale to fit does come into play -- but for length, not width. If I forget to uncheck scale to fit, the cards will be somewhat shorter than they should be and only the top 6 of 10 will be usable. If scale to fit is unchecked, all 10 land in the right spots. But it doesn't help the issue -- either way, if I print from the Windows 7, all 10 cards will be ruined because they'll print over the pre-cut perferations, regardless of how Scale to Fit is set.


I'm going into Best Buy today where I bought this laptop to see what happens when:

1) My Windows 7 prints to their printer(s).
2) Their Windows 7 prints to their printer(s).
3) Their XP prints to their printers(s).

... and maybe by a low end laser to replace my ancient laser and see if that works.

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Something else to consider ...
by Bill Osler / January 25, 2010 9:25 AM PST
In reply to: Intriguing ---

I do not know if it is possible to implement Bob's suggestion in Windows print drivers in general. I know I have not been able to find a way to alter the OS's default settings for non-printable area for any of the printers on my home LAN. That said, there may be another solution. It's not clean but it MIGHT work.

It is often possible to change the settings regarding page margins inside the program that creates a document. If you have access to Adobe Acrobat (not just the reader) you MIGHT be able to mess with the settings of your PDF so that the Windows 7 computers will print the document properly. Unfortunately, that might mean you would have to have one document version for Win 7 PCs and a different version for XP PCs.

Just a thought.

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I focused on the Minolta
by R. Proffitt Forum moderator / January 24, 2010 9:02 PM PST

Above I wrote "Page 6-3 notes the printable area.
But the real area of interest is 4-3 the Paper Tab."

I've used the paper tab to get print outs to land just so on the paper.

Let's hope this was enough for you to explore similar, same on the HP.

Good luck,
Bob

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BEWARE BUYING NEW PRINTERS. Here's why.
by R. Proffitt Forum moderator / January 25, 2010 1:30 AM PST

The printable area in the printer drivers do tend to shift around from OS to OS and driver to driver.

I wish I was more like Schulz about what I know here. I wrote drivers years ago and today the area you are covering is painful to end users. And shameful to the industry.

Too bad the industry didn't get its act together and use Postscript.
Bob

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Chat with HP tech.
by aliceabusmus / January 25, 2010 11:46 AM PST

Spent an hour in an online chat with a HP support tech. She had me install alternate drivers -- the HP Deskjet 990C driver, which is very basic in its capabilities. Everything went well -- but in the end, the print outs are still shifted to the left 1/4 of an inch. I didn't tell her that I'm having the same problem printing to a completely different printer. She wants me to uninstall and reinstall the printer driver before I talk to the next level of support. Though I know that won't help, I guess I'll have to do it anyway. I'm having a really hard time understanding how it could be printer drivers when the two printers use unrelated drivers.

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It's in the drivers.
by R. Proffitt Forum moderator / January 25, 2010 9:46 PM PST
In reply to: Chat with HP tech.

Either the one native to the OS or the one you add. In post 9 I offer a link to a programmer's discussion that lifted the hood of this machine and wrote:

"the Printer Object coordinates (0, 0) point to the top left corner of the "printable area" and not to the top left corner of the physical page. This is not a Visual basic thing, it is a printer thing, and all applications which print stuff, including Micro$oft Word and everything else, need to take those things into account. This is not be a problem as far as positioning your output when printing from VB is concerned because you can use the GetDeviceCaps API to "read" both the size and the position of the printable area of the page and you can then take those values into account when printing your stuff."

That's a lot for some to take in so I must give people time to absorb but look deeper at the Windows GetDeviceCaps API and after sketching out how this all works then you begin to understand why this shifting happens from OS to OS, printer to printer.

It's not you. It's about the mis-mish of programmers and "the windows economy."

All I can do is share a little about the underpinnings why this happens. How to correct it appears to be unacceptable or just some control panel setting that is eluding you or just not there.

I dug into one of the printers to share exactly where I'd tweak how it lands on the page. I left the other for others to dig into.

Again, I make no apologies for this industry. They could have done better and you calls to tech support are so far, showing they don't or won't discuss how it works and what you can adjust to get it done.
Bob

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Turn left 3 block before you get to where ...
by aliceabusmus / January 25, 2010 10:56 PM PST
In reply to: It's in the drivers.

... the high school used to be.

These are the kind of directions I used to get when I was on the road. If I knew where the high school used to be, I wouldn't be asking for directions.

"...Either the one native to the OS or the one you add."

So two computers, one brand knew and off the shelf, runnning Win 7, print incorrectly with two different drivers, one a plain-wrap basic driver -- and all XPs and Macs print correctly -- but the problem is the drivers, not the operating system. As a non-programmer, this is illogical.

"In post 9 I offer a link to a programmer's discussion that lifted the hood of this machine and wrote:

'the Printer Object coordinates (0, 0) point to the top left corner of the 'printable area' and not to the top left corner of the physical page. This is not a Visual basic thing, it is a printer thing, and all applications which print stuff, including Micro$oft Word and everything else, need to take those things into account. This is not be a problem as far as positioning your output when printing from VB is concerned because you can use the GetDeviceCaps API to 'read' both the size and the position of the printable area of the page and you can then take those values into account when printing your stuff.'"

But have you considered bleep glorp nannu fleen? If I understood what to do with that paragraph, I wouldn't have needed to post here to begin with.

"That's a lot for some to take in so I must give people time to absorb but look deeper at the Windows GetDeviceCaps API and after sketching out how this all works then you begin to understand why this shifting happens from OS to OS, printer to printer."

Right -- I forgot to look into my GetDeviceCaps API. And if I know what you were talking about, I wouldn't have need to post here. That's to much to expect non-programmers to do -- I'm not trying to accomplish anything complicated here -- just print a page centered.

"How to correct it appears to be unacceptable or just some control panel setting that is eluding you or just not there."

No action I took based on what you have suggested allowed me to print a single page on either printer centered correctly. Fiddling with the paper tab simply does not do what you suggest it might do.

Again, if I knew what to do, if I were a computer expert, I wouldn't have asked. I have both printer manuals. I poured through them experimented for weeks before my first post. Maybe I've misinterpreted what you've been telling me -- I thought you were telling me what to do, but now I think you're telling me where the solution should be if only the programmers had done their job, but since they didn't, there's nothing I CAN do short of becomming an expert programmer and writing a driver from scratch.

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Beep.
by R. Proffitt Forum moderator / January 25, 2010 11:08 PM PST

You're right. The industry has failed you. And while my programming background lets me lift the covers and explain why this is happening it is un-useful to you.

Good luck in finding a solution. It will be a driver or a printer setting but until someone can write where (I can't because I don't have your models to work with) all I can offer is why this happens and what I have done too many times over the years.
Bob

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Don't buy another printer?
by aliceabusmus / January 25, 2010 11:22 PM PST

"Above I wrote 'Page 6-3 notes the printable area.
But the real area of interest is 4-3 the Paper Tab.'

I've used the paper tab to get print outs to land just so on the paper."

This is simply not the case. There's nothing on the very terse page 4-3 that suggests how to shift a print over to the right to fix this problem. I've tried every reasonable permutation of the magical Paper Tab, as well as the Setup, Quality and Device Options settings. Nothing addresses the problem.

Here's the complete text of page 4-3:
============
The Paer tabl allows you to

Specify the size of the original document
Define custom media sizes
Fit printed documents to a specified media size
Select the output media size
Scale (enlarge/reduce) documents
Specify the number of copies
Turn on/off the printer?s sorting function
Turn on/off the Proof Print function
Specify the orientation of the media

Refer to the printer driver?s online help for information on all of these
functions.
============

That's it, that's all there is. None of these things helps push the page back to the right. None of these can even be used as a work-around to add a 1/4 of an inch to the left margin.


"Let's hope this was enough for you to explore similar, same on the HP."

No, it isn't. HP's printer preferences has a Paper/quality tab that would be the analog of 4-3 on the Minolta. This is equally useless for this issue.


"BEWARE BUYING NEW PRINTERS. Here's why."

Oh, come on, really? I've got a brand new, off the shelf Win7 laptop and you're warning me not to buy a new printer? That would imply that 1000s or millions of other consumers are likely to experience this kind of problem -- yet I've scoured the net before posting her and I've yet to find anyone with this issue. Are you suggesting that I may be unable to get my brand new Win 7 computer to print correctly with a new printer?

"The printable area in the printer drivers do tend to shift around from OS to OS and driver to driver."

We've been printed business cards on Avery pre-cut cards for many, many years. We've printed them from dozens of XPs and even Macs to at least 4 different printers. Never had a problem.

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That would imply that 1000s or millions of other consumers
by R. Proffitt Forum moderator / January 25, 2010 11:34 PM PST

"That would imply that 1000s or millions of other consumers are likely to experience this kind of problem"

YES! Amazingly true. Your application is that the printout land exactly so on the page.

The reasons why it is not working is technical. I can share where it is but if the printer makers do not let you adjust this, then it is game over.

And your post is proof there is a problem with this area. Not an unknown problem but 99% of Windows users would never care if the page mashed around a little. You are in the percentile that it matters.

Really wish I was there to help out.

What to do next? Get printers that work with the OSes in question. Make calls to Redmond, WA and hope you find a sympathetic ear. Learn how this area works. Learn the Bleep Blorg Blang language so you can guide those that can tweak the drivers get it tweaked right.

I hear you loud and clear you don't want to know or do all this but if things were not as I see them, you would not be posting all this and someone somewhere would have provided a simple solution.
Bob

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