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Speakeasy forum

General discussion

Why global warming is a major concern for coastdwellers

by Dave Konkel [Moderator] / August 1, 2005 9:31 AM PDT
Global warming likely to make hurricanes hit harder, study says.
(Chronicle login: semods4@yahoo.com; pw = speakeasy)

>> Hurricanes are likely to become more destructive in the future and global warming is probably a major cause, according to research published online Sunday in the journal Nature. "When hurricanes do strike in the future, they will, on average, have much greater intensity, hitting harder and lasting longer," [lead author Kerry] Emanuel said.

The increased storm intensity will "substantially increase hurricane-related losses along populated coastlines, hitting people hardest not as previously thought in the tropics but in the middle and high latitudes," he said. He said the trend is closely linked to an increase of about one degree in the average ocean surface temperature, which can be crucial.

I'm not so sure he's right about the number not being affected, though -- we've had more storms by this time this season than any in history. And Dennis was the strongest July storm ever -- until Emily. Sad

-- Dave K, Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!
Discussion is locked
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I'll stick my neck out here
by Steven Haninger / August 1, 2005 10:39 AM PDT

Of course, those who insist on building their homes on pylons in the sand will need to take their own risks. Hurricanes happen and, at least today, warnings begin days in advance. But again, hurricanes do damage deep inland sometimes. Hugo toppled trees deep into the Carolinas and caused death and injuries to folks far from the shorelines.

But, I'm going to trust ''Mother Nature'' on this one. If mankind is abusive, she will do her level best to minimize the overall damage we do to our earthly home. Her reactions may look like revenge but they are really acts of healing in disguise and are beyond human understanding sometimes...and from witnessing and studying how well designed she is and how well she works, we can become better tenants.

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"we can become better tenants"
by gooslojo / August 1, 2005 10:53 AM PDT

Excellent point as my girlfriend and I often discuss on our trips to Wildwood,NJ and Ocean City ,MD, the beachfront is changing dramatically.Years ago the boardwalks in both these towns were about the same distance from the ocean;a nice leisurely walk from one to the other.Today in Ocean City there are spots on the boardwalk where you could throw a stone into the ocean.In Wildwood today the ocean looks miles away(not sure of actual distance)and is so far that there are carrier services that will haul you and your beach gear down to waters edge.The Earth is changing as you said and we will have to adapt.

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I mentioned Hugo for a reason
by Steven Haninger / August 1, 2005 11:11 AM PDT

This hurricane took out a beachfront cottage (along with many others) my wife and I rented every summer in South Carolina. The storm also "reclaimed" some property as the beach was moved several feet back. The US taxpayers paid these property owners plenty for their lost real estate. Because we'd gone there so many years at the same time, we could see the gradual changes already taking place. The dunes were disappearing as were the sea oats and other grasses that held things in place. The long walk to the water during low tide was getting shorter and the high tides were lapping at the sundecks build where the dunes used to be. We were told by the "locals" that this is just part of natural cycles that happen and attempts by man to block the changes were many and always failed. To paraphrase from a speach given by...I think it was Chief Seattle...'you don't own the land. It owns you'.

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In the past, Ive read that sand has been imported
by Dragon / August 2, 2005 1:42 AM PDT

to beaches, probably from the Near East.

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That process is called
by Steven Haninger / August 2, 2005 2:38 AM PDT

''re-nourishing''. The process is extremely expensive and only temporary as that sand washes away too. There is nothing to hold it from the tides. Sea wall (sometimes called ''groins'') are also built....again....temporary. Sometimes ''Mother Nature'' just picks up her beach and moves it to another area, however.:) As I understand it, local vegetation binds the sand. Anything that destroys these grasses...foot traffic, buildings, etc., invites erosion. Building further back and behind the dunes is supposed to help preserve beaches. This might mean you have to walk a bit further to the shoreline and your beer will be a bit warmer when you get there.;)

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I Have Seen In use another method
by gooslojo / August 2, 2005 3:54 AM PDT
In reply to: That process is called

...at ocean City,MD where they use a"vacuum" to move sand just offshore and pump it up onto the beach.From there the back-hoes take over and spread the sand to replenish the beach.

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Yes, just last night I watched a History/Discovery
by John Robie / August 4, 2005 1:43 AM PDT

TV channel on Dredging. That is one method, but another is to dredge the sand and dump it a half mile from shore forming a 'bream' 100 yards wide parallel with the shore and then let the wave action move the sand to shore.

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Some Earth passages from Bible
by James Denison / August 5, 2005 7:11 PM PDT
In reply to: That process is called

Genesis 8:22 - While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease.

Deuteronomy 32:22 - For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.

1 Chronicles 1:19 - And unto Eber were born two sons: the name of the one was Peleg; because in his days the earth was divided: and his brother's name was Joktan.

Nehemiah 9:6 - Thou, even thou, art LORD alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee.

Job 26:7 - He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.

Psalms 24:1 - The earth is the LORD's, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein.

Psalms 46:6 - The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Psalms 74:17 - Thou hast set all the borders of the earth: thou hast made summer and winter.

Psalms 89:11 - The heavens are thine, the earth also is thine: as for the world and the fulness thereof, thou hast founded them.

Psalms 97:5 - The hills melted like wax at the presence of the LORD, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Psalms 104:9 - Thou hast set a bound that they may not pass over; that they turn not again to cover the earth. (jdd-speaking of "the waters")

Psalms 136:6 - To him that stretched out the earth above the waters: for his mercy endureth for ever.

Proverbs 8:29 - When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:

Proverbs 30:4 - Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?

Ecclesiastes 12:7 - Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. (jdd-the duality of man)

Isaiah 24:20 - The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.

Isaiah 40:22 - It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

Nahum 1:5 - The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.

Matthew 24:35 - Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

1 Corinthians 15:49 - And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

2 Corinthians 5:1 - For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

2 Peter 3:7 - But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

2 Peter 3:10 - But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

2 Peter 3:13 - Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1 - And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

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(NT) (NT) Ps 115:16; Ps 37:29
by drpruner / August 6, 2005 6:43 AM PDT
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Rarely imported -- usually dredged from nearby seabottom,
by Dave Konkel [Moderator] / August 9, 2005 11:14 PM PDT

Dragon. They've done that in Galveston, but the "replenishment" rarely lasts very long, due to normal wave action and particularly storms. What does more often work is using "geotubes," long sand-filled plastic tubes that serve as anchors for new dunes. Unfortunately, the "pure" environmentalists object to them as "not natural" -- but Christmas trees (their favorite dune anchor) aren't available year-round, and tend to move around a lot more.

-- Dave K, Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!

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Not the pure Conservationist
by kmarchal / August 10, 2005 5:21 AM PDT

example Texas Artificial Reef Act
http://www.fishgame.com/cgi-bin/news.cgi?article=137


HB 883---Under the Texas Artificial Reef Act of 1989, the Texas Parks and Wildlife Department administers the Texas Artificial Reef Program on sites permitted by the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers. (NOW) This bill allows private citizens, groups, and/or associations to deploy reef material under guidelines and rules established by the Texas Parks and Wildlife Commission. It would also allow law enforcement agencies that have confiscated a derelict watercraft to transfer it to TPWD for use as an artificial reef. This bill took effect when the governor signed it on May 27.

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Sometimes we cause the changes.
by Dan McC / August 10, 2005 4:29 AM PDT

The unnaturally long beach is the fault of the Army Corps of Engineers. They built huge jetties to prevent sand from blocking the Cape May Canal and failed to realize that this would eventually starve the beaches of Cape May City.

The earth is changing and sometimes it is our fault.

Dan

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(NT) (NT) same with the Mississippi river @ New Orleans
by kmarchal / August 10, 2005 4:52 AM PDT
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(NT) (NT) Does the Pope let you worship Gaia? :-)
by drpruner / August 2, 2005 4:28 AM PDT
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Gaia ?
by duckman / August 2, 2005 5:12 AM PDT

Was he the winged lizard that Godzilla fought?

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No, you idiot; that was Mothball! :-)
by drpruner / August 2, 2005 5:17 AM PDT
In reply to: Gaia ?

Gaia is another name for Mother Earth, posited by those who believe the earth is a living entity, not just a substrate for life.

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(NT) (NT) I know about the treehuggers
by duckman / August 2, 2005 5:21 AM PDT
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(NT) (NT) Actually, some "serious scientists" as well.
by drpruner / August 3, 2005 4:19 AM PDT
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(NT) (NT) Good thing you used quotes ;-)
by Evie / August 3, 2005 10:15 PM PDT
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(NT) (NT) Right; I meant credentialed, not necessarily sane. :-)
by drpruner / August 5, 2005 1:10 AM PDT
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Actually I was a bit carefull writing this
by Steven Haninger / August 2, 2005 7:08 AM PDT

You will notice the quotes and caps used with "Mother Nature" but the avoidance of caps with "she" and "her". Of course the reference is to a complex process and not an unguided entity...and I do consider such natural phenomena as being more than signs of doom and gloom...that the earth is self destructing. Quite the contrary is true...at least I believe so. Anyway, I hear no rattling of chains and see no one gathering wood and tinder for a "roasting" yet.;)

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re: earth self-destructing
by drpruner / August 3, 2005 4:29 AM PDT

Our ''superstitious primitive'' forebears had a more comforting view of the earth- fall on it, and it certainly feels permanent.
Nowadays our advanced physical knowledge tells us entire galaxies come and go, so we ''know better,'' and worry.

What both groups had/have is Rev 11:18- ''... your own wrath came, and the appointed time ... to bring to ruin those ruining the earth.'' Put that with Gen 1:1, and it means no power, not even internal, can cause the earth to go away before men are done needing it. Further, Ps 37:29 and Rev foretell a time when Jehovah would step in and 'make it right,' for some, anyway.

Of course, our superior knowledge says the scriptures have to be ... superstitious & primitive! Not sure from your reply which side you want to believe.

I do think your church is on the side of 'burn it up and send everyone to heaven/hell.' That's one solution, of course, but it doesn't say much for ''almighty'' God's ability to protect his own creation.

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Our superior knowledge??
by Steven Haninger / August 3, 2005 5:10 AM PDT

If you think about it, when one truely gains in knowledge they will find the gap between what they know and what is yet to be known has actually widened. As for my church?? I find that it's so bent on reconciliation of all sinfulness against God that it has often violated the laws made by man...but such is expected and proper IMO. It has suffered plenty for that. There is a narrow pathway the catholic church has walked through the ages and not always have they stayed upon it. But, it's been held to a higher standard than other faiths and, IMO, this is quite proper..it needs to be this way. As for scripture, you and I will just need to agree that we view it differently. I'm still not sure what you believe but I definately do not view the Bible as some sort of a code book...one that contains a rule for every situation we encounter, a prophesy for every event that has occurred, etc. I have known folks who think quite otherwise and that's just fine with me.:)

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Not a code book; that is, not a law for
by drpruner / August 5, 2005 1:19 AM PDT

every situation. Plenty of principles, though, and from the highest possible Source. Principles are timeless.
One example: John 13:34,35. "Commandment" to love one another, but based on principle of love, and the Greek word used means "principled" love- 'just because.' ("On these two [love] commandments hang all the law and the prophets.") 2000 years later I'm faced with a law from man that says 'kill your fellow man because he's of a different nationality.' How can that show any love for him? So I don't join up.
Same scriptures were in place during Crusades, Inquisition, Huguenot massacres, etc.
Bottom line at 13:35- "then all will know that you are my disciples;" that is, Christians.

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Yep, the same scriptures were in place
by Steven Haninger / August 5, 2005 8:03 AM PDT

but so was older thinking and customs. And did kings give folks free will to choose their own religion? And how many kings ''converted'' to meet requirements to sit on their thrones? Just how ''christian'' could these have been? And who had the armies....the popes or the kings? Hmmm...me smells bad politics here and not just bad religion....or could it be the mixing of the two??..but the bottom line is that, IMO, one cannot make sweeping condemnations of yesterdays events using today's thinking. Of course, many folks get their history lessons from comics, cartoons, and the cinema...and their notions of ''evil'' from someone, themelves, filled with hatred.;)

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scriptures vs. 'older customs'
by drpruner / August 8, 2005 8:50 AM PDT

I thought the rule was, for Christians the scriptures override. (''We must obey God rather than men.'' Peter [said to be first Pope], to men who were his religious and secular leaders.)

'history from comics'
Worse problem is getting one's Christianity from sources other than bible. Mt 4: ''It is written ...''

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Put yourself in old Rome
by Steven Haninger / August 8, 2005 10:34 AM PDT

during the time of the ceasars. Go up to the common person who visits the collosseum for entertainment rather than the local cinema. Sit with them as they watch men kill others for entertainment and argue with them about their mindsets when they see no evil in what they are watching. Next, go forward to days in (not even so distant in time) Europe where there was no prison system such as exists today but other penal customs have been established. A person convicted of crime is held and tortured for information or confession. If convicted (rightly or otherwise) the punishment is carried out in public and the town folks turn out to watch. To them, justice is witnessing the perp get his due. They want and demand it. Go to those folks and tell them this is all wrong and punishment, if any, should happen in private and should be kinder and gentler. Tell them that torturing criminals for confessions or other information is wrong. Argue this with them....professed Christian or not that they be. They've been doing this for a long time....who knows how long. You be the one who insists on change but still needs to find a tactful way to maintain yourself in the good graces of some real brutes who fear for their own thrones and are constantly watching their backsides. They...the secular leaders also head the church and appoint officials (including inquisitioners) within their own kingdoms. They decide the what punishments are handed out for crimes...both against public laws and against God's law. You tell them they must show more mercy....you place time and other limits on torture and technique (Hey! it ain't perfect but it's a start) that can be used for certain accusations. Doug, the church may have looked mean from your seat now but it was tame compared to secular justice. Now, you sit smuggly and bash the early church for not creating a 100% turnaround in the lives of those people in short order...knowing that the very folks in that church were probably struggling to rid themselves of the effects of old cultures imbedded in the deepest folds of their brains. We muse about what it would have been like to live in other times and even try to make reality TV programs out of this stuff. We bash people for old thinking all the time...but just who are we do do so, I ask? We have no business putting ourselves above these folks, criticising their ways and thoughts, and then telling them that all they needed all along was a book. No Doug, it takes far more than having someone teach you to read, hand you the book, and cut you loose.

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Much of the action you mention is historical fact,
by drpruner / August 9, 2005 6:29 AM PDT

and comes under the heading of ''peer pressure.'' When the mob says, ''Kill the enemy,'' but only a ''still, small voice'' says 'It's not yours to judge who dies; let Jehovah do that,' most go along with the mob. (In fact, mob = most, right?) (1 Ki 19:12; 2 Thes 1:6,7)
It's difficult to march in the opposite direction or even to stand still and wait for the salvation of Jehovah. (2 Chr 20:17) Difficult ... but not impossible, as history also confirms.

I must also point out that the ''early church'' had the same book; same instructions. If 'Caesar' can say, ''Ignorance of the law is no excuse,'' what will Jehovah say of those who claim to be the Creators of, and The Only True Purveyors of, that very same book? (I'll get you quotes from catechisms, if you need them.) In fact, every Saturday AM the lay descendants of these same ''early church fathers'' make this same claim to me. ''Hand you the book, and cut you loose'' can't apply to the instigators of the excesses- Catholic and Protestant- many of which are being repeated today- they said they were the book. (See below.)

What can be applied here is what James had to say to some of his fellow saints: ''Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, knowing that we shall receive heavier judgment.'' (Jas 3:1) He may have had in mind that Jehovah's standards given through Isaiah would still apply:
''Jehovah himself will enter into judgment with the elderly [mature; experienced] ones of his people and its princes.'' (Isa 3:14)
It's certain that Jesus today holds to those standards: Lu 12:41-48.

Are you aware that priests and Popes considered only themselves ''qualified to teach'' (1 Tim 3:2; 2 Tim 2:2,24) to the extent of keeping the bible out of the reach of the ''laity'' for most of the last 2000 years? On pain of death? (Again, documentation on request.) Your relative freedom today is a gift from at least Luther, Gutenberg, and John XXIII, even if you don't want to recognize Jehovah.

How long will you be limping on two opinions? (1 Ki 18:21)

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Are you aware that bibles
by Steven Haninger / August 9, 2005 7:51 AM PDT

were in the churches and were chained down? And why chained? Could it be that it took about a year to hand scribe and validate each copy? Is it ok with you to protect them in this fashion? And why were they not all just translated into the common languages? Could it be (and it was) that few could read anyway and that some languages had no alphabets? Should the clergy of the church control the teaching of the bible? I say YES. They have devoted their lives to learning it, its history, its writers....and on and on...and YES the church IS a teaching authority as was the math teacher who first introduced you to algebra.

and here

If 'Caesar' can say, ''Ignorance of the law is no excuse,'' what will Jehovah say

my response can only be that one who tries to compare God's and Ceasar's methods of executing law should learn to contrast them instead.

You obviously, to me, have developed so much disdain for the catholic church that you and I will remain at an impass on matters such as this. I think that is regretable as I find it difficult to harbor such feelings for any who truely seek the goodness of God who brought us here not to threaten and whip upon but to bestow His love. Good day for now....perhaps a better ''conversation'' later.:)

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In fact, the only church I know from my reading
by drpruner / August 11, 2005 6:21 AM PDT

that chained bibles to the lectern was that of Henry VIII, nominally non-Catholic because of the break over whatever. Purpose was the same as today's libraries' use of Reference section - not to leave the building.

What I had in mind was murdering someone over owning a common-language bible or translating same or preaching what the bible says (vs. official Catholic teaching, as in Luther's indulgence teaching). Calvin and other Protestants as guilty of this as any Pope, but the RC church was and is the largest of those claiming to be Christian, so responsible for most of the murders.
All this was policy for centuries. Do you really not know of these things? Documentation on request, or check your history books.

''the church IS a teaching authority''
The Church claims to be THE teaching authority; check your catechism.

''the math teacher who first introduced you to algebra.''
That teacher had to teach that 2X=6 gives X=3. Catholic church holds itself to no such rigor: Invents ''hellfire tortures,'' then sells ''a way out.''
Mt 6 denigrates repetitive prayers ('pagans do these things'); Church borrows the rosary from older pagan religions.
Bible says Jesus the only mediator between God and man; Church mandates Mary (see rosary and ''mediatrix'') as a route to Jesus to God; then invents ''St. Anne'' as a route to Mary, etc.
Peter tells Cornelius, 'Don't bow down to me, I'm only a man;' Church special-orders a ring for the Pope to wear- to be kissed by the faithful. Nowadays Catholics bow down before mere pictures and statues of Peter. (Merely ''Relative worship, you say''? No such thing in the bible.)

'ignorance of Jehovah's law'
The whole purpose of our work is to show God's requirements to those who are ignorant of them (see above). Then they make their own choices. State explains to me the meaning of those speed limit signs along the highways, then I decide how fast to drive.

''disdain for the catholic church''
After an investigation of Jehovah's loving ways extending over almost 20 years, I have disdain for anything less that claims to be as good.

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