Speakeasy forum

General discussion

When's the court martial?

by Dave Konkel [Moderator] / June 21, 2005 10:23 PM PDT
2 top Marines say `lack of leadership' led to Humvee armor delay.

>> Two top Marine Corps officers acknowledged Tuesday that they waited two months to issue a contract for armor kits to protect the undersides of Humvees after promising to do so earlier this year.

Testifying before the House Armed Services Committee, Gen. William L. Nyland, the assistant commandant of the Marine Corps, and Brig. Gen. William D. Catto, the chief of Marine Corps Systems Command, attributed the delay to a ''lack of leadership.'' They assured the committee that all Humvees and military trucks that the Marines used in Iraq would be adequately protected by December. <<

Dereliction of duty sounds good -- and a case could even be made for manslaughter or criminally negligent homicide. They should plead no contest -- they essentially confessed to Congress!

Meanwhile, December doesn't look to be way soon enough Sad : Redesigned bombs pushing U.S. toll higher.

-- Dave K, Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!
Discussion is locked
You are posting a reply to: When's the court martial?
The posting of advertisements, profanity, or personal attacks is prohibited. Please refer to our CNET Forums policies for details. All submitted content is subject to our Terms of Use.
Track this discussion and email me when there are updates

If you're asking for technical help, please be sure to include all your system info, including operating system, model number, and any other specifics related to the problem. Also please exercise your best judgment when posting in the forums--revealing personal information such as your e-mail address, telephone number, and address is not recommended.

You are reporting the following post: When's the court martial?
This post has been flagged and will be reviewed by our staff. Thank you for helping us maintain CNET's great community.
Sorry, there was a problem flagging this post. Please try again now or at a later time.
If you believe this post is offensive or violates the CNET Forums' Usage policies, you can report it below (this will not automatically remove the post). Once reported, our moderators will be notified and the post will be reviewed.
Collapse -
dk you never will stop your tirades
by Mark5019 / June 21, 2005 10:36 PM PDT

dont tell others what to post ok as you dont follow your own rules

Collapse -
(NT) (NT) YAWNNNNNNNNN !
by duckman / June 21, 2005 11:34 PM PDT
Collapse -
Why are you always so eager to prosecute and imprison
by Kiddpeat / June 21, 2005 11:47 PM PDT

military people? Never mind. I think I already know.

Fortunately, the military has the UCMJ to protect them from the unceasing attacks coming from the left.

Collapse -
A rant!
by Angeline Booher / June 22, 2005 1:32 AM PDT

Hi, DaveK,

I listened to the hearing this morning on C-Span.

What the article does NOT note is that the General said that the need for the armor was not anticipated before going into Iraq.

The military cannot order supplies beyond the standard without first clearing the cost in the budget process.

I think that most here will agree that there was indeed a lack of anticipation of what has been happening.

I do not agree, and frankly resent, that your charges of murder and calling for a court martial are founded. The soldiers died at the hands of the insurgents. It is known that armor does not guarantee survival or wounding. These are open vehicles, and were not intended for the what they are now being used. It is the same for the vests that were not anticipated.

It's no secret here that I am not a fan of the Sec. of Defense, nor his former deputy, and have felt that decisions were made, not by the military professionals, but those civilians. I don't think they gave the professionals the time to plan the mission that the first president Bush gave them before the Gulf War. But that is strictly my opinion, and I have no way of actually knowing.

I think most here would also agree that the situation in Iraq has been chaotic in places. I believe that in the midst of chaos there may have been higher priorities at the time. The Marines were given the mission of clearing out insurgents in an area, which involved going door-to-door. Being sure that vest were available for all could have been the top priority.

Consider, please, that there are some here who have kids in the military who accepted the risks. Those who pray for their safety are aware of them, as well. To even suggest that their superiors are murderers is unconceivable.

I assure you that if their superiors think that action should be taken against them, it will be. Perhaps not in the time frame you would want, but it will happen. Today's military is not the same as in the past, and should not be judged as if it were.

Angeline
Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email
semods4@yahoo.com

Collapse -
(NT) (NT) Thank you, Angeline.
by Cindi Haynes / June 22, 2005 1:48 AM PDT
In reply to: A rant!
Collapse -
Poor planning...
by Dave Konkel [Moderator] / June 22, 2005 2:11 PM PDT
In reply to: A rant!

Hi, Angeline.

It's way too late for the "not anticipated" argument -- we're talking of a further delay *this year,* after these folks promised immediate action, a full two years after the invasion. That's simply inexcusible, especially when it costs lives.

And without "doing a Durbin," failure to plan adequately for contingencies in advance is a cardinal error of military leaders. The most memorable example comes from World War II, and (thank God!) had a lot to do with Germany losing that war. When the Wehrmacht invaded Russia in Operation Barbarossa, they failed to include winter uniforms or make provisions for winterizing vehicles or weapons, because the timetable called for Soviet surrender before winter. "General Winter" came early that year, and the unprepared Wehrmacht's capabilities were severely degraded over the long, very cold winter. (And the following spring was equally bad, as all the dirt roads turned to mud, and there had also been no adequate provision for metal tracks to make roads passable in mud). So "the need was not anticipated" is NOT a convincing or valid answer -- it simply testifies to the incompetence of those doing the planning. Yes, this is 20-20 hindsight -- but that's why generals get the big bucks and responsibilities, and they need to be held accountable for their failures. Especially when there were LOTS of people warning the military about a long protracted guerrilla war if they invaded -- Rumsfeld and company simply chose to ignore them.

And, BTW, the Wehrmacht *did* have winter uniforms by 1942, a year after the need was apparent. That's not the case with our humvees' armor more than two years after the invasion. Sad

-- Dave K, Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!

Collapse -
Did you serve in the military Dave?
by James Denison / June 22, 2005 2:48 PM PDT
In reply to: Poor planning...

If not, perhaps you can rectify this shortcoming by opting to go over to Iraq and ride around in the Humvees as an observer. I will be glad to contribute to a fund that will afford you a chance to enjoy a 6 month tour over there observing the situation and reporting back here to all of us on it, a first hand experience. It's something you could treasure for the rest of your life, a real chance to see a different part of the world and meet people of a foreign country under the most trying circumstances. It would be the type of crucible in which one's personal chaff could be burned off, leaving the precious insight that such an experience can only give. Will you be willing to do this Dave? May I and others establish a fund and begin raising money to finance your sojourn in Iraq with our fighting men and women there? Will you do this for your country? For us?

Collapse -
Will you do this for your country?
by JP Bill / June 22, 2005 3:08 PM PDT

Instead of spending your money to send Dave to Iraq why not spend it here?

Soldiers Angels

As we approach the one-year anniversary of the start of the Iraq war, an imp
ortant fight in our own backyard to better equip our soldiers. A local family, who lost their son is on a mission. The ''Night Team's'' Caterina Bandini with their story.
Brian Hart, Soldier's Father
''There's a realization that you don't have anything else to lose.''


As the equipment problem has been going for a while it does appear to be poor planning.

ARMOR UP: WHAT YOU CAN DO

Collapse -
Read My Mind
by gooslojo / June 22, 2005 3:26 PM PDT

" Did you serve in the military Dave? "

Excellent question!Judging by the response,or should I say ,Lack thereof,I think the question has been answered.
Checks in hand.What's your address?

Collapse -
(NT) (NT) Attack the messenger, ignore the message.
by Dan McC / June 22, 2005 11:56 PM PDT
Collapse -
uh,..do you know what a "messenger" is?
by James Denison / June 23, 2005 7:54 AM PDT

Just willing to do my part to help Dave K actually become a "messenger", reporting back to all of us from the front with his own special outlook on things there. Of course we'd have to send copies of his articles printed back here in the states to those who are protecting him on the front lines. Sounds like a winning situation for all concerned, and Dave K can then speak with authority on the subject.

Collapse -
A continuing attack.
by Dan McC / June 23, 2005 10:31 PM PDT

All without addressing the message of poor planning.

Dan

Collapse -
No, Thank God!
by Dave Konkel [Moderator] / June 23, 2005 3:28 AM PDT

because to do so would have meant I was caught up in our previous quagmire, VietNam. You will note, however, that I know a lot about military history and (larger unit) stategy, from much reading and war-gaming (and if, like Ed O'D, you think that counts for nothing, then you probably don't know that's one of the key methods used at the Army War College).

At least we're fighting on the right side this time -- even if it's a war that didn't need to be fought and clearly isn't worth the cost in lives, money, national prestige, and internal division.

-- Dave K, Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!

Collapse -
(NT) (NT) We were on the wrong side in Nam????????
by Evie / June 23, 2005 4:11 AM PDT
In reply to: No, Thank God!
Collapse -
That reminds me
by Angeline Booher / June 23, 2005 5:31 AM PDT
In reply to: No, Thank God!

.... what's been said about sports events.....

Watching them on TV is enjoyable, but that doesn't beat being in the stands.

Or seeing a play on TV doesn't capture the same essence of being in the orchestra seats.

There are times one just has to be there.

There are fine officers who have come out of the War College. They have already graduated from mostly civilian colleges or some from service ones, but they have advanced degrees awarded from civilian colleges. They are lower paid than their counterparts in the civilian sectors considering their educations and practical experience in their fields of expertise. Most have families. As they have accepted being in harm's way, I don't think they make "big bucks".

IMO, it is understandable that they would present views born of their experience and expertise, just as those qualified do in the private sector.

Angeline
Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email
semods4@yahoo.com

Collapse -
You know DK........
by Glenda / June 24, 2005 3:04 AM PDT
In reply to: No, Thank God!

I didn't even come in to read this thread because I know how you feel about our military! Doing a search on my posts I found Toni's reply to you and had to read it! What gets me is I just wish you would show some concern for SE members that have loved ones in the military! Maybe if you had ever served or even had a child serving you would understand how much your constant criticism hurts! And no matter how much reading or game playing you have done, it will NEVER come close to serving and being under fire! Done!

Collapse -
I see no comparison
by Angeline Booher / June 23, 2005 12:41 AM PDT
In reply to: Poor planning...

Hi, DaveK,

WWI was the war to end all wars. Men and equipment were then not considered a priority. Thus at the start of WWII, some recruits trained with wooden guns.

Anything like WWII would not happen again. Same low priority after that one.

But with the start of the Cold War, a high priority was reached.

After the Cold War, I personally heard comments such as " Why do we need such a big military now? Taxpayer dollars could be better spent."

"Readiness" was not the mantra of those days.

It was somewhat of a shock when Korea happened. But NATO and 30-odd countries were also there. Then Vietnam when we got a glimpse of the hell war is via TV.

Now back to WWII when manpower, supplies and equipment were low.

Why was it different then that we were able in such a short time to provide the supplies and equipment? IMO, it was the Home Front. Regardless of what people think of him now, he was able to mobilize the citizens, and, if you will, "sell" the war to the point that we all had a part in winning it.

My town had a factory that made the outside shells for refrigerators. When the war started, they converted to making anti-aircraft shells. My mother worked there. I still have examples of the "drawing" process used to make them that employees were allowed to take home after the war.

The country had to wait until after the war to buy a new refrigerator. Would most taxpayers today wait?

(I suspect the factory conversions may have been ordered by the War Department.)

I think that only one or two factories build the Humvees. Would any auto manufacturer temporarily convert another factory to build them? Or, if willing, would the issue of the turf of awarded contracts enter in?

Just how much "readiness" would the majority of this country support?

There were cries against developing a plane that could do in one or two sorties what took hundreds of WWII planes without the loss of thousands of crews. Too expensive!

I addressed my views on "anticipation" above. The Gulf War showed how well anticipating works.

But total readiness means that equipment and supplies for any and all theatres of conflict be stockpiled and stored. (Some of which would deteriorate in storage.)

Otherwise it takes time to manufacture and build them, especially without the country being mobilized to produce them, and the citizens being mobilized to support steps to avoid shortfalls.

That is why the "anticipation" argument still stands.

Angeline
Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email
semods4@yahoo.com

Collapse -
Don't know
by EdH / June 22, 2005 1:40 AM PDT

if a Court Martial is in order or not, but certrainly this needs to be explained better.

Collapse -
I agree with you whole-heartedly Ed.
by Ziks511 / June 22, 2005 5:23 PM PDT
In reply to: Don't know

It has been two years since the nature of the war in Iraq was known, and the two generals knew what was wanted/needed but delayed ordering it for reasons that are unclear. The nation needs to know, and in my view, the brass need also to assure the soldiers down the line that their safety and their best interests are being safeguarded by the REMFs whose job it is to safeguard them and assure adequate and speedy delivery of proper materiel.

Rob

Collapse -
REMF's.....
by gooslojo / June 22, 2005 5:37 PM PDT

Haven't heard that in years.Prior service Rob?
I served 4 years,7th Infantry Division,Ft.Ord,CA

Collapse -
What the hell do you know about the military....
by Jack Ammann / June 22, 2005 5:29 PM PDT

...all you're doing with this post is bating and flaming.

ASK NOT WHAT YOUR COUNTRY CAN DO FOR YOU, ASK WHAT YOU CAN DO FOR YOUR COUNTRY.

You ever heard that before, Dave. AND now you've already pi$$ed off Angeline and Toni. AND it's my opinion you can pi$$ off the Pope before you can pi$$ off Angeline. Keep it up, Dave...TRASH YOUR COUNTRY SOME MORE.

Collapse -
I have a suggestion
by TONI H / June 23, 2005 1:53 AM PDT

Since you are so hellbent on punishing anything to do with the current USA methods, this Administration, and the current military for any and all infractions you think are punishable by jail or death......let's do this.

Every mother and father in this country who has a child or a grandchild in the military RIGHT THIS MINUTE make all of them come home IMMEDIATELY via any route they can use from any country they are stationed in, including our own. Let the planes, ships, tanks, humvees, etc. all sit idle wherever they are....and desert all ammo dumps.

Now when somebody else in some other country needs help, call the UN and tell them we can't come to the party because we have no military, but they can use our left over equipment that we left and all they have to do is go get it. (In case you've forgotten, there are many countries who couldn't send any military to help in the coalition because THEY don't have any eithe.)

Now, when terrorists attack the USA again, make sure you scramble into your 1950 shelters and hide in the hole like Saddam did, and hope that your enemies go away quietly instead of standing up and fighting for what you feel is due you by birthrite.

If you survive, perhaps you'll once again appreciate what the hell you have fighting for you.....kids....just so you can be the ungrateful man you've grown to be. Kids.....who work long, stressful, dangerous hours with little pay, no sleep, crap for food, equipment that may or may not save their lives. Kids who have to hear their own countrymen denigrate them via the local radio stations and tv stations from wherever they are..and realize you don't give a damn about anything but the enemies' civil and humanitarian rights.

I wonder how long YOU would last listening to people back home describe you as baby killers, war mongers, Nazis, etc. before YOU threw down your weapon and headed for home or took that rage and disappointment out on the ONE thing you're there to kill anyhow?

Me, and Cindi, and Glenda, and a number of other members who have family and/or friends stationed anywhere in the world would gladly scoop our kids back up in order to make you happy. It sure beats listening to you and a few others in here rag on them over and over every day.

You, and those like you DK, can kiss my ROYAL AND LOYAL USA ***.

TONI

Collapse -
(NT) (NT) YOU GO GIRL!!!!!
by Evie / June 23, 2005 2:23 AM PDT
In reply to: I have a suggestion
Collapse -
(NT) (NT) I Love This Girl!!!
by gooslojo / June 23, 2005 2:38 AM PDT
In reply to: I have a suggestion
Collapse -
As you can probably tell
by TONI H / June 23, 2005 2:48 AM PDT

since you're a realitive newbie to SE...I'm NOT the diplomatic and tactful Mod. That's Angeline's job role.

TONI

Collapse -
Yea sure...
by gooslojo / June 23, 2005 2:50 AM PDT

and I bet Angeline don't have 5,000 acres to mow either

Collapse -
Toni...you're reputation with me and a WHOLE LOT of
by Jack Ammann / June 23, 2005 3:01 AM PDT

...others that have been around this forum for more than 20 minutes...

ANYTHING YOU DO, HAVE DONE, OR WILL DO IS JUST ALRIGHT WITH ME.

That's what you call having ''STANDING''...something of which the people whose *** you jump have NOTHING even resembling that.

Collapse -
(NT) (NT) Toni...you're just my kinda GURL...
by Jack Ammann / June 23, 2005 2:51 AM PDT
In reply to: I have a suggestion
Collapse -
(NT) (NT) Thank you, Toni
by Cindi Haynes / June 23, 2005 4:40 AM PDT
In reply to: I have a suggestion
Collapse -
excellent Toni
by dawillie / June 23, 2005 11:50 AM PDT
In reply to: I have a suggestion

i do not frequent this forum for the very same reason.

got tired of a certain group of people blaming EVERYTHING from inclement weather to what have you, on the current re-elected Administration.

and if we realy want to foul the waters let's leave such matters to the most capable UN.

roflmao.

david williams

Popular Forums
icon
Computer Newbies 10,686 discussions
icon
Computer Help 54,365 discussions
icon
Laptops 21,181 discussions
icon
Networking & Wireless 16,313 discussions
icon
Phones 17,137 discussions
icon
Security 31,287 discussions
icon
TVs & Home Theaters 22,101 discussions
icon
Windows 7 8,164 discussions
icon
Windows 10 2,657 discussions

The Samsung RF23M8090SG

One of the best French door fridges we've tested

A good-looking fridge with useful features like an auto-filling water pitcher and a temperature-adjustable "FlexZone" drawer. It was a near-flawless performer in our cooling tests.