When a local union has NO power to negotiate.

this time it's the Union bosses of course as much or more than the company.

5 ill get you 10 there was something to sweeten it for the national union while cutting more than necessary for the local guys.

A gag order on local leaders not to speak about the deal to their membership? Tells you there some deal was made under the table that benefited union bosses in money and power, not rank and file union members.

As always those that have get..........those that don't lose.

being in a union shop was being caught between the proverbial rock and the hard place. As an employee you are caught between them both and deprived on both sides with no chance of individual initiative giving you more success in the job than the next guy, all advancements made between management and the controlling gang, called a union.

get away with more than people complain about union members getting by with.

Layoffs where the guy who drinks with the boss staying while the guy who works is let go.

Promotions of the laziest, although it seems fairly consistent that someone who screws up enough if they don't get fired they get promoted.

Ups and downs with everything.

Although contracts get "reinterpreted" with different episodes still, at least with a contract you know what the rules are. Without one, rules are changed and you don't know it until they bite you.

Actually that happens even with a contract. Rules are thought up by some manage about things not addressed in the contract and people don't even know the rule exist until it bites them.

It's just that with a union and a contract, you have a better chance of protesting than you do without one.

Do unions sometimes save people's asses that don't need to be saved? unfortunately true, sometimes its not just because it's required, but you have to protest to prevent a precedent since grievances are just like court decisions, they often base decisions on previous ones.

I sort of pity them.

One girl office years ago in a heat treating shop......Boss wasn't a very nice person; however, he paid well, gave health benefits that everyone was happy with, and had a normal 'pyramid' type retirement/pension plan that he matched every year, and gave pretty decent Christmas bonuses along with holiday pay when job orders demanded a job finish on time, time and a half for normal overtime, and turkeys/hams for Thanksgiving/Easter.

Union goons decided we 'needed' employee protection from this owner and stomped all over until it was voted in. Employees lost their healthcare, lost the bonuses, lost the retirement/pension plan, lost most of their overtime pay because the boss rearranged the job orders that cut them quite a bit, and all the rest of the 'goodies' the boss gave voluntarily. What they got instead was a more hostile boss, a health insurance plan that actually wasn't as good as what they had, and another pyramid retirement/pension plan.

Because boss was so hostile to the union heads, those heads and the boss cut a deal after the first year completely behind the employees' backs. It was a two year renewable contract that had been 'negotiated'....first year was up, and the heads didn't see much money coming from this small shop, so they told the boss to keep taking out the employee deduction for health, retirement, AND the union dues, send ONLY HALF of the union dues taken out directly to the union, pocket ALL the rest, never say anything to the employees, and let the contract run out and it won't be 're-negotiated'.

As a result, the employees ended up with NO coverage by the union during that final year and didn't know it. (Thank God nobody in the shop and none of their family members ever needed to go to the hospital or doctor for anything because a huge lawsuit against both the union and the boss would have resulted). When the contract was over and not put into place or a new one showed up, the employees thought everything would return to normal. Boss felt by them taking on the union in the first place was a sign of disloyalty (a number of those employees had worked there ten or fifteen years) and none of the benefits or goodies ever came back to them, except for the health insurance which was now much less than they had before....no more dental or prescription coverage.

I left about a year after all the damage was done to a pretty good company and its employees...liking the boss even less than I did for the eight years I worked there. I always felt that the union took advantage of 'not so smart' shop workers and the boss should have recognized that it wasn't all their fault and just been happy to have his shop back in his control, but, like I said, he wasn't a very nice person to begin with and took his rage against the union out on the employees, even to the point of illegally cutting that deal with the union and screwing the employees with the union's help. I had told him to tape the deal he made with the union and then go after the union instead of the employees, but he was afraid the NLRB would rule in favor of the union anyhow and he would lose even more in the end. And to be honest, in many ways he was right......the NLRB almost always favored the union's side in any dispute, and the owners of companies who tried to fight it lost huge dollars trying to do battle.

Union heads are the only ones who ever win......and you can bet the money that my ex-boss sent to them for that last year went right into their pockets while they shredded those contracts as if that shop had never existed in the first place.....and everybody (both union and my ex-boss) just kept their fingers crossed for that last year that no claims would ever come through. They played the odds and 'won'......and the employees lost big time.

union goons

Nothing is all good, including unions.

But without unions in the past you'd have none of the benefits you do now.

Do people in charge sometimes abuse them, yes,

You going to tell me companies never used and abiused employees?

shows your bias, Roger.

Unions of the 'past' WERE a good thing in getting the shops under better work guidelines....child labor, locked sweatshops, better wages, actual pensions, OSHA established for safe working conditions, etc.

However, they quickly turned into a rackets game with billions spent over time buying local, state, and federal politicians and turning elections into jokes that benefited union heads more than their members and non-union voters. They aren't needed anymore because most of what they got for their members long ago have been taken over or are now actually overseen by federal laws, regulations, and specific departments, such as the government level NLRB.

As for abuse......there is far more abuse by union heads now than there is by companies today....even to the point that even their own members complain that their election votes don't count anymore because the heads are dictating what politician gets union backing money with no say-so from the members, and that union money comes directly from the dues the members are required to pay.

Unions also control in many areas that if a non-union contractor or person gets hired for a job, they are required to pay union dues or enrollment 'fees' anyhow (my nephew just ran into that on a 'Minute-Men' temporary job at a job in Cleveland, Ohio......he was only hired on for a one month temp job and had to pay to 'join' the union even though he wasn't going to be hired for longer than the time specified and be finished and never get a call back for any other jobs after that....he lost over $100 in pay right off the bat. It was either pay the 'blackmail' money or not work at all for that month with the temp agency).

So, yes, they are goons........and still using thuggery to get their money.

for a self serving gang that legally engages in racketeering? Answer: a union.

I do believe uions have done good, and there not be a lot of what everyone gets now without them in the past.

I concede there is a lot wrong with the national bosses, I said that.

Required union dues is by state law. NC doesn't allow such.

Power always corrupts, look at 99% of politicians.

What do I regret, reneging on my self imposed ban of responding to such post by you. There is not a discussion with fervent, fanatical faith of any kind.

Enjoy your rants. I'll try to stick to responding to you on when I have a documented factual corrections only, not about opinions and prejudices, if I respond at all.

You and Ziks really do make perfect foils for each other.

I'm a 'ranter' now because I pointed out flaws in your statements? I am sorry you felt compelled to go against your 'self-imposed ban' of responding to 'such posts' by me.......I didn't realize that my 'such post' was in any way offensive to you. I actually believed I was in the middle of a pretty good 'debate' with you. Who are you and what have you done with Roger NC?

for my arguments, though I grant you I don't do it every time.

I have my opinions just as everyone does, and generally I only rant when someone like James or Toni offers what I see as an extreme opinion unsupported by any logic or evidence and with which I profoundly disagree. I'm as human as the next guy, sure I can be provoked.

On this issue, I'm entirely on your side, Roger, and acknowledge the historical good and bad that has come from Union representation, I think that the good has vastly outweighed the bad. viz. Workplace Safety, Sick benefits, Pensions, Health Care, an arbitration process, and protection from capricious or vindictive employers or staff.

The smartest companies offer better conditions and wages than the union shops, simply to keep unions out. Unlike a lot of union people, I have no problem with that.

Rob