Whatever we're doing in Iraq

Services, civil institutions, law enforcement, security, and more.

Dan

under Saddam to deteriorate all of those things, and you don't think two years of nearly non-stop rebuilding by us (the coalition and Iraqi people) is good enough or fast enough or "better" yet?

Ahhhh jeeezzzzzzz....it's never good enough for you people or fast enough, is it? What TONI wishes is that you would round up your like-thinking buds and head on over there and show us how to do it 'better'.

TONI

Put all your ideas on how to do it 'better' down on paper, present it to Kerry and all of his buds so somebody in your crowd actually can show us a detailed plan instead of empty words of complaint.

TONI

nor this great country usa remember that every day its better over there try to look with out your pesimistic eyes

it was like over there for the last 50 years? Do you go by what the american press tells you? Or were you over there and seen it first hand? You know I used to be just like most of you in that I believed everything that I was taught in school, heard from my parents and seen on the news. But I work in a packinghouse where we now have about 80% of the people working there are not from this country. We have people from Mexico, Honduras, Guatemala, El Salvador, Peru, Laos, Thailand and many more. Now, most of the people who work in my department have been in the States 17 to 20 years. The stories they tell clearly contradict what has been taught to me as true all my life(and I have taken as true), by this closed view society we live in. For example I work with a Honduran, named German(G is pronounced as an H), who was there and 17 or 18 years old when the whole Nicaragua, contra thing was going on. He paints a totally different picture of it than anyone from the United States ever has to me about the CIA involvement in it and the Unites States involvement in it and what kind of conditions were there before the USA stuck it's nose in there and after our companies went down there and severely damaged their economy. That's why he is here now.
As Americans we always think we are on the side of Right, because that's what we were taught all of our lives. And it doesn't matter what we do as long as it's on the side of "our" "right". As Americans it's always easy to think, so and so of some country is a horrible tyrant, or so and so of this other country is a horrible dictator, because we are always taught that our way of life is the best, just like people of other countries think their way of life is best. Just as Christians think it is alright to erect the 10 commandments statue on public land because they think they are the only "right" and it does not matter what law they break as long as they have their lord Jesus Christ in mind.
So when you think of broad statements like that please step back and think "out of the box" once in a while.

Makes a lot of sense. Count me in agreement.

>>>>how do you know what.... it was like over there for the last 50 years? Do you go by what the american press tells you? Or were you over there and seen it first hand?>>>>

Because of live interviews with people in Iraq and those who escaped to other countries....they have lived it, endured it, and had family and friends disappear into mass graves.

I wasn't in Germany and countries they took control of during the Nazi regime either but know from records and documents and live interviews with people who survived.

We know.....and pretending that things are not better already in Iraq because we went there is like listening to some people still claim that the Jews being slaughtered by Hitler never happened and is Western propaganda.

>>>>>our way of life is the best>>>>> Yes, it is....evidenced by how many people from other countries are willing to sacrifice everything, including their lives, to get here.

TONI

Quote:
>>>>>our way of life is the best>>>>> Yes, it is....evidenced by how many people from other countries are willing to sacrifice everything, including their lives, to get here.

Really Toni, how many people do you actually KNOW PERSONALLY that has come here from another country? I work with about 800 of them and personally know about 100 or so. When I say know, I mean I have talked to them about their history, their lives and what they do now. About their kids and the parents who they had to leave behind to come here. About their cousins, who got deported back to Guatemala, and a lot of what it was or is like back in their home country.
They do not give up everything to come here because they have nothing to begin with. American companies come in and take advantage of the situation in these countries by exploiting it's people. The man named German I was talking about had a job for $265 a month before America convinced his country that a totally free enterprise was the way to go, thus allowing big corporations to come down there and control the wages. He tells me that they had publicly run electricity and water for their house(which was part of being a socialist country) that costed $1.50 a month. But now the average people can't afford electricity. I then asked him how much he would be making right now on a job like he had before, he told me about a $65 a month. I asked him if they even had luxuries like cable tv and what not. He said you can get it for $20 a month but if you make $65 a month who is going to spend $20 on cable.
So you see YOU might think our country is the greatest in the world and prove it by pointing out how many people give up their lives to come here. But people like I work with, who are the actual people who come here might think differently. They tell me themselves, in person, not on some small news clip or some newspaper artical, that they wouldn't be here if American companies weren't to have ravaged their economy.
I don't blame you for feeling the way you do, I felt the same way before I started actually knowing people from other counties. We are all tought from when we are little that the more democracy we can bring to this world the better, everyone should lead our way of life, but this is not the case for all people involved. It's been 25 years for the people of Germans country and they are not any better off now then they were with a socialist government. Yes the big corporations that are in that country are better off, but the common everyday people are not.
So you see when people object to us being in Iraq, maybe just maybe it's not because they hate Bush but maybe it's because they believe we should not be involved in trying to change people's way of life in other countries. Maybe they think that we should let their people be.

do you have nothing but bs to add?

good find good for you. I'm glad that Baghdad can have their own stock exchange and telecommunications market will be booming,and there will be a new oil refinery, and some new electric plants and water treatment plants. I'm glad there are advances in the Health care situation and more schools.
It's good to see that the $85 billion that Bush asked for this year will be going to something. I hope the corruption doesn't exist like it did when the United States gave it's moneys to Honduras, where the US would give $10 million to build a quality bridge to a contractor which in turn would build a crappy bridge for $1 million and pocket the other $9 million. Coarse, I don't know what I'm talking about I just talk a bunch of bs.

i guess you supported Saddam's killing fields, plus he did have wmd.

but you go on joint the Ted Hic Kennedy's, and the Kerry's.
good thing the people of the USA don't share your views.

but if you want to stay in denial and if that makes you happy go for it.


you probably think the UN is on the up and up

history as well as owning four homes in four different areas of a large city (Cleveland, Ohio) and a small town in Virginia now.....in addition to the many apartments I've rented in my life in pretty bad areas because it was all I could afford; plus belonging to many organizations because of my children's activities as they grew up and/or at least being involved in some of those organizations....in addition to having to be 'involved' with unions for shops I've worked at, I think I can qualify as somebody who personally has known many people throughout my life who have come to the USA from other countries for various reasons.

Some come to go to our schools, go to our hospitals, some to escape tyranny, some to have the "American dream" of better than what they had, some come to give their children better than what they would have in their home country. Some of my own family fled Italy during the late 30's and early 40's...and even standing in bread lines or being on welfare (of sorts) was better than what they left.

>>>>>They do not give up everything to come here because they have nothing to begin with.>>>>> You make this statement, and most times you are right; however, your next statement makes it appear that they had nothing because of America itself rather than their own government. >>>>>>>American companies come in and take advantage of the situation in these countries by exploiting it's people.>>>>>

The great rush of companies to leave America for cheaper labor costs has only come about in the last 10-15 years on a mass scale. People coming to America to have better lives has been going on since this country began. The companies leaving here have the unions to blame......and it started in 1970+ right after the Vietnam War ended and the American people never realized these companies were taking their tool and die and screw manufacturing to somewhere where the company could make a profit. I personally was working at a heat-treat company when we lost the two largest screw manufacturing accounts in the entire country....and it was within two years after the unions showed up in our shop which increased our cost to the screw mfrs which was already fighting the battle with the unions in their own plants.

I still believe that this country is the best of the best.....and many people around the world believe so, too, or they wouldn't be still coming here in droves no matter what their reasons are.

>>>>>>maybe it's because they believe we should not be involved in trying to change people's way of life in other countries. Maybe they think that we should let their people be.>>>>>>>>

We aren't involved in trying to change people's way of life in other countries. We are proving that in Iraq......and we have proved it in other countries where the USA has gone to provide help for suppressed and oppressed people. We've never conquered a country and took it over.......we have helped people take their country back from tyranny and they govern themselves afterward. We aren't perfect, and we make mistakes, but WE are the country every OTHER country looks to when they need help. It is NEVER the other way around.

Let the people be?????? The first ones to complain when we look the other way and let them be are the ones who believe we should be in that country immediately to help. We either don't do it fast enough or we don't do it the way they think we should....those complainers will never be happy no matter what we do. Thank God.....we don't listen to them most of the time.

TONI

which we whole heartedly agree.

I said we had never conquered a country and took it over........actually we conquered THIS one and took it over.

We learned from that and have never done it again....in fact, we have learned so much from what we did that we have instead become the 'knight in shining armor' to the rest of the world because what we learned is that conquering ANY people is wrong and unhealthy for the entire world. We even had a war here between our own people over an oppressed society that some of our own couldn't see as human beings.

We go where we are needed......we don't go just because we think we CAN. How many countries have been helped by the USA and gone on to rebuild themselves into productive countries vs how many have gone into decline after we have gone there to help? How many countries have asked for our help and then spit in our faces afterward just because they finally COULD?

How many people have come to our country to live and rebuild their own lives vs how many have fled the USA to live elsewhere and actually given up their USA citizenship because they felt so oppressed here? How many people come here and actually become citizens of the USA if they don't believe they have it better here than anywhere else?

Do we sometimes get it wrong or almost too late? Yes. Do we mostly get it right and in the nick of time? You bet.

There are some countries that believe that weapons makes a country a superpower......they haven't got a freaking clue. It's all about the PEOPLE in that country and the ability to to be heard and acknowledged and to choose for themselves and the freedom to just flat out live without fear from their own government, let alone from some other country who thinks that nobody should be anything other than suppressed/oppressed/conquered.

Weapons are for show.....the people's hearts are what makes a superpower. And until other countries figure that out, they will never be superpowers in the world. Or....they have already figured that out and fear that their own people will also figure it out, so they have to continue to use fear/intimidation/threats to keep them under control.

TONI

.... has come here from another country?

Literally hundreds. From Eastern Europe, Asia, Africa, Central and South America. All for a better life or at least a chance at it. And most of them at a MUCH more personal level than you have described.

Why are your 800 co-workers here? Why didn't they stay, or go to another country?

Back in my political days I knew a Guatemalan prole who described how United Fruit ran the country like its own property.
Once worked with a former Nicaraguan Army Major who, though a confirmed Goldwater Republican, acknowledged the Somoza family oppression.
The Dulles Bros. backing of a corrupt "Christian" horse in Vietnam is well known; to add to your point, it was well known to Vietnamese long before Americans were permitted to know about it. Well, I guess we could know about it through non-mainstream sources, but we couldn't talk about it publicly for fear mark would call us pinko pansy peaceniks or some such.

BUT- are things any better? Uncle Ho died before the war ended. His successor bureaucrats- indistinguishable from those in DC or Downing except for skin color- 'rolled up' the Viet Cong and 're-educated' them, keeping control for the NVA. Not a pretty sight at all today, I'm told.
Latin America continues its meltdown.
Saudi Arabia- a 'wholly-owned subsidiary' of the Saud family- continues its meltdown.

Nowadays I marvel at those of you still backing a corrupt horse- the system of things that man has created for himself. When you get tired of it I can tell you about a much better government: Matthew 6:9.
Regards, Doug in New Mexico

... so he came to the US.

LOL!

Is wishing things were going better a condemnation?

Dan

going on your allways negitive.
and saying i wish isnt 1

that onley proves that you didnt ever post 1 good comment in your eyes its been all bad.
thats a shame that something good over there you fail to see unless it come up to you and shakes you silly

you are making here! In other words things are SO bad in Iraq that we needed Mr Kerry to do it the "right" way! Things are going as expected, we are at war remember? No war ever goes "better" Unless you are dreaming!

"No war ever goes "better" Unless you are dreaming!"
And until the war is over it will not be "better" as we will still have people dying! But our military are giving their lives for something they believe in! Apparently something you know nothing about!

Red, White, and Blue that if I was drunker than a skunk and puked everywhere, it would come out in the right colors, too.......

That doesn't mean that I have my head in the sand, and that I don't see the flaws in my country....but I wouldn't trade it for anything even similar. I can't imagine even living on another planet somewhere without the USA flag flying over a continent just for 'us'.

TONI

TONI