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General discussion

What to Buy Mini DV or DVD

May 11, 2006 10:28PM PDT

I am not one to write emails such as this one. But I am in a spot where I can't seem to find the right answer to allow me to make a decision.

I am pondering then next video camcorder purchase. I will be replacing the Sony HI 8 TVR unit that we have used since 1996. It has given us good service. The reason for the upgrade is to acquire newer, smaller, digital technology and the HI 8 unit has had some damage which doesn't make good sense to spend money on the necessary repair costs.

Here is my dilemma. I can not decide whether I should purchase a unit that captures the images on mini-DV tape or true DVD disk. I am torn with: a.)whether the DVD, and its moving parts are susceptible to more damage then the moving parts of a tape unit, b.) the rather limited taping time capacity of DVD, roughly 30 minutes versus the 60 or 120 minutes of mini-DV, c.) and some other less significant "hold-ups". What to do? What are your thoughts on this matter? Which is the better technology play at this time.

Thanks,
Zach

Discussion is locked

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What is "true DVD"?
May 12, 2006 12:04AM PDT

Most if not all DVD recorders are using a DVD-VR method which may or may not play on your DVD player. Even moreso if the disk is not finalized.

Also, so discover that long play on recordable DVD media may result in software such as Ulead.com not being able to import from the DVD media since it's not in DVD-VR format.

There are also reports that if you are recording and you bump the camcorder a little too much (how to measure?) you lose the entire disc. Compared to tape this is surely a step back.

mini-DV tape would be my choice since I'll connect it with firewire, pull it off to the PC or Mac and make the DVD there if I want to keep it.

Bob

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"What is true DVD"
May 16, 2006 11:52AM PDT

I have to disagree with you on your comment of "if you bump the camcorder, you can lose the whole disk". I have a DVD camcorder and it can take a beating while recording and still have the disk but the picture would be wobbly because of the movement of the camera. lol. Anyway, its never happened to me.

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My feeling on DVD cameras. John
May 12, 2006 7:09AM PDT
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go for it
May 19, 2006 4:51AM PDT

We have had a Hi8 for 15 years or so. At Xmas I bought a Sony DVD92, but eventually took it back. The picture on our computer off the disk was far worse than our Hi8, although it was tolerable on our 36 in. tube TV. The advantages, though, of the Easy-cam feature, the touch-screen control and navigation, and the elimination of tape rewinding, were enough to convince me to still go DVD. Saleman and website editors still push Mini-DV, but for the rewind elimination alone I'd go DVD. Lots of people like the Sony 403, but I'm shopping price for the 505. I am not worried about DVD being more susceptible to damage; just heed the mfr's. caution about care when the disk is being burned to.
Sony still hasn't upgraded the editing software everyone complains about, but aftermarket programs like Roxio should solve that. And an aftermarket 2X lens will overcome the paltry 10X zoom inherent on the larger CCD cameras. Panasonic seems to be the other major contender, but from what I've seen and researched, the Sony 505 is my target in spite of its detractors and some negative features - all cameras have those. If it's as easy to use as the 92 I used at Xmas, but is ten times the camera, then the 505 is the one I want.

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go for it 2
May 19, 2006 5:19AM PDT

I forgot to address your tape time issue. Although you can set the camera to tape longer, you obviously will lose quality by doing so. Once you get the hang of it, changing discs is easy, so 30 mins is no big deal. I opted for the -RW disks in a 3-pack as the best investment. I mean, if you are steadily shooting an hour and a half of anything, than you need a different camera altogether, Dude. Or just buy more mini-disks.
In actual practice, judicious use of your camera should not be making guest viewers sit through mundane hours of home video anyway. In actual practice, you should plan on converting/burning your mini disk -RW scenes to standard discs at the end of a shooting day, for archiving, then reusing the mini -RW's over and over. If you have a DVD recorder, or laptop burner for when you're on the road, you should be able to connect your DVD camera to it and burn onto a standard DVD several mini-disks worth of video.
So what if you have to put in a new disk after 30 minutes of shooting; I had no problem with that during the brief time I had the Sony 92 model. It took a few minutes to learn how to pop out a disk (there is a trick to it), but then it became no harder than switching Hi8 tapes, though you should not use greasy or dirty hands to do it. And others I've read on the Forum have indicated the same thing - when you see the 30 minute mark coming up, you make sure you have another mini-disk ready. Big deal. In practice, I don't just turn on the camera and let it run. You probably don't either. You shoot scenes. So it takes a while to get 30 mins. on board. If anything, it might make you a bit more editorial in your shooting, and a better cameraman for it.

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Re: Go for it 2 DVD vs Mini DV
May 19, 2006 7:58AM PDT

Decribe any issues you may have had with disk finalization or any errors you may have experienced with disk finalization. As I understand it, once the disk is finalized it sometimes can not be played in older version home DVD players.

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response
May 20, 2006 6:00AM PDT

I had no difficulties with finalization. Although, the closer you get to filling up the disk with data, the quicker you can get finalized. As I recall (I didn't keep the DVD camera), you just have to keep the camcorder still during finalization. My difficulties came as a result of having one of the first DVD players around. It recognizes "DVD Video", but apparently not "DVD-RW" or anything else. My finalized disk wouldn't play in it, but I've also run into rented movie DVD's lately that it won't play either. So I reckon its time to get a new DVD player/recorder. That way, if I want to, by cable connecting the camera to the player/recorder, I can just copy the -RW mini disk (or several) onto a standard DVD disk for archiving, assuming I don't want to use the computer for editing before burning.

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RE:DVD camcorders!
May 20, 2006 2:27PM PDT

Why is it that so many people are saying the sony 403 is still better than the 405??

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Huh?
May 21, 2006 6:19AM PDT

Did anyone say the 403 was better than the 405?
Only maybe that it will cost less.

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RE: Huh?
May 21, 2006 10:47AM PDT

If you look at some of the reviews, they still recommend buying the 403 if you can get it!! Obviously you don't agree....what makes the 405 better if thats the case, cos' personally I am very confused now!

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hmmm
May 22, 2006 7:12AM PDT

I don't recall saying anywhere that the 405 was particularly better than the 403, except that one could probably pay less for the 403. As far as I've read there are only relatively minor changes between the two; the 405 is merely this year's version of the 403. Perhaps I mistyped something, or you misread a comment. I'm looking to get the 505 (not the 403 or 405!) because of the larger touchscreen and other improvements over other Sony DVD camcorders.

No camera is without negative issues, such as the wind noise problem with Sony's fuax Dolby 5.1 audio microphones, and, with time, improvements create more palatable units. But one has to jump in somewhere along the technology growth timeline, or spend one's life on the sidelines only wishing to be a participant. When the demand settles down so that the new 505's price falls more, I will likely get it. I've already seen it $200+ lower than ''MSRP'', but you have to be careful because I understand some retailers don't include the whole original package at their ''cutrate'' prices. I don't mean to create confusion or controversy over that comment - it's just what I've read online in various places. Making sure you get everything in the packaged camera you think you're buying is your own responsibility; know the dealer's reputation, and if buying online, know the shipping costs. I expect ultimately to pay between $750-$849 for the 505, not that much more than a 400 series unit, and, to my mind, a better camera overall.

But if a reputable dealer offered me the 403 at a super price, I can't say I'd turn it down. It is an excellent and well-reviewed camera; if I'd jumped into the DVD camcorder market last year, the 403 would've been my choice without a doubt, based on my brief experience with the DVD92. The 92 taught me that I love the format and the touchscreen and the Easy-Cam point and shoot, and that it is not too large or small a camera, or confusing to use. And I learned about which video formats were best for my use, and that Sony's editing software sucks so I need to use an aftermarket that will capture and edit both video and audio. I'll worry about that when and if I want to actually spend time editing my scenes before transferring them to large DVD disks.

That experience actually using the 92, and some research, led me to believe the overall video and audio advantages of the 403 would make a great camera for my family; but then came this year's models. Though it has its detractors, I have held in my little hands and perused the 505, and am convinced it is the unit for me. I don't care about nor need to wait for HD cameras... standard video is adequate for me, and I am in no rush to join the rush to HD televisions anyway. Call me old-fashioned, or just old.

Why don't you buy a 403 from a local reputable store and try it? Just make sure the dealer will let you return it if you don't like it. That's what I did with my model 92, the bottom of Sony's DVD lineup; taking it back was very easy, and I just kept the 3-pack of -RW disks and the aftermarket superbattery I had purchased seperately, because I can use them in any other Sony DVD model I ultimately buy. And if I get a Panasonic or Canon, the unopened superbattery can be returned/exchanged, and the -RW disks will still work in almost any DVD unit.

So, are you now more or less confused?

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RE: Confused
May 22, 2006 11:55AM PDT

Well, I guess I am less confused now...my only problem is that I have to do really good research, cos I am in Australia, and a friend will bring it back for me..so I have to buy online and know that it is the item I want....I know it's a little risky, but I don't have a choice.

You make a good point about just getting into the DVD market...maybe a less complicated camera and not the most expensive one is the way to go...I'd like to get the smallest one too....since I haven't had the chance to see any of them in person, I can only get an idea from the measurements given...and the 405/505 do look a little bigger?! You are lucky to have had a look and feel in person. I too don't care about HD....not for a long time anyway, what I have now is good enough....after all I am not a professional! I only want the DVD camcorder because of the ultimate ease of use and less time spent transferring from one unit to another...the old tape to tape is really annoying especially if you don't do them as you go! And the obvious - that tapes are not going to be around for long! Maybe I will just look at the best deal I can get and go for it....I suppose it can't be that bad?!

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size
May 23, 2006 7:38AM PDT

It's hard to understand that you can't find a more local source there to view first hand these cameras, unless you're in the far Outback. Sony's and most others have worldwide distribution - although the model nos. and precise components may change a bit among countries. You may be looking locally for a model no. other than 403, 405, or 505, but that is virtually the same camera. I know that is the case in at least some European countries.

And, yes, it certainly is a bit risky to have to buy the way you are thinking of doing it. If you don't like the camera or if there's something haywire with it, you're in a pickle, having to attempt a return or repair. And one thing that makes me nervous about Sony is the no less than a few reviewers on this and other forums that have experienced really bad customer service from the company regarding warranty repair of new camcorders, including unrepairable faulty shutters, as I recall. Sony may be one of those outfits so fattened by their marketplace dominance that they've neglected the hands that feed them, and don't give a rat's *** about you once they have your money. I've not experienced that with any of the Canon products I have (nor my old Sony Hi8), but I have definitely experienced it with Dell.

Aside from that, one has to keep in mind the vast majority of owners that have had no problems and rate the 403, for example, even higher than the editors at CNet do. And the 403 has been around for quite a while now, so it is time-tested. I will say that if Canon built a camcorder that, performance-wise, held a candle to the Sonys, I would likely go to Canon first. As far as my opinion goes, Canon trumps Sony for film and digital cameras anyday, but not yet in the camcorder dept. That said, I should add that I am going to research any reviews I can find on Canon's highly advertised new camcorder, the DC100. It has a 25X zoom, so no conversion lens is needed, and is relatively small. But I haven't read furthur so I don't know about its other features and how they compare to the better Sony home camcorders. I doubt that it can produce as good a picture, and certainly doesn't have the faux but good Dolby 5.1 audio that the better Sony's in this discussion do.

Regarding size, as you mentioned: I'm of the opinion that you can get things too darn small. Some camcorders are so dinky that it is difficult to handle them, much less find and use their switches and buttons. The 400 series is about right for me, and my wife absolutely loved the 92, which is about the same size overall as the 400 group. The 505 (and the 405) have a larger lens, but it has a built-in lens cover - a distinct advantage over some less expensive units. Our old Hi8 was okay, but to me, the DVD models we're discussing are lighter and more comfortable in the hand, yet not too small; and with EasyCam and touchscreen controls, esp. the 505's huge screen for my old eyes, I feel I'm on the right track here. That is not to say that Mini-DVs aren't a good size as well. I'm just trying to get away from the confounded tape winding. The 505 is a smidge bigger and heavier than the others, and I think the 405 may be too; a lot of that is the larger lens, and the 505's screen. But they are no less comfortable to hold and use. Certainly any of these take up a fraction of the room in a bag that my old Hi8 does.

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RE: Size etc..
May 23, 2006 9:35AM PDT

Firstly I have to say thankyou for you obvious patience in writing back to me....I really appreciate it! You are right though, I had another look last night on the aussie website, and they have the models here... 805/905 the prices are almost double,(ie: the 905 is US$1400!!) so the risk is probably worth it for me.
The one I have now is the Canon ZR10, I bought it about 6 years ago from a US website - Family photo and video I think it was called - while I was staying with a friend at the time, and it was ok until now it keeps telling me to remove tape when it doesn't need to be removed..it will record, but very unreliable - I almost missed a whole song that my 8 year old daughter sang on the stage at school..luckily I got it going in time to get the last half!

I was looking at the Canon DC40 (it is around the $700 mark), until I read so many Sony lovers in the camcorder dept!! Especially in low light, and family recording is quite often indoors. I haven't yet looked at the Canon one you mentioned, but I will now. I will also try and get to the stores to see our version of the 405/505.

You know that where you can still get the 403 it is about the same price as the 405 anyway Happy) You would think it would be cheaper, but the good reviews have held its price I suppose.
Again, I would like to thank you for your responses...They are great!

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but
May 25, 2006 9:40AM PDT

Glad I could alert you to the Euro/Aussie versions. One thing that sticks in the back of my mind, though, and that you should be concerned with too, is the advantages of Mini-DV over DVD. The use of touchscreen thumbnail instant scene access/review, and no tape wind/rewind searching for shots, are the two biggest things going for DVD camcorders.

But Mini-DV units are ahead in a lot of other categories. They produce better video (because at this point in tech development, tape still takes video data better than disk), the tape goes a little easier in and out of the camera than a disk does, and they are ''a piece of cake'' to computer edit; most even can hook with one small wire directly to a DVD player that has a DV inlet. Sony's DVD units include lousy editing software, one of the company's biggest neglects, so you have to use aftermarket programs like Roxio or Nero or whatever they're called if you really want to capture data off the miniDVD disk onto your computer and then edit and dubb music, fancy fades, or whatever. That would all be nice, but time-consuming. I have no doubt that I could create a phenomenal full sized DVD movie of my home video(s) if I had the time; but I'd realistically think that my family is satisfied to see unedited memories as originally shot - no glorification is needed for them. So the Mini-DV editing advantage is no big selling point to me. Heck, it took me a decade to get around to copying stuff from my Hi8 tapes to VHS tapes. Hopefully I wouldn't do that with mini-DVD disks (-RW), esp. if I get a DVD player that records as well, and can just hook the camcorder to it to copy to full sized DVDs.

They tell me the Mini-DV camcorders can fully rewind in 60 seconds, which is a darn site faster than my old Sony Hi8. It's just that having used briefly the Sony DCR DVD92, I was sold on being able to immediately access a specific scene by just selecting a thumbnail of it off the touchscreen. The Sony 505 is about $1100 US direct from Sony, and others, including Sears Roebuck in the store, which is the only place so far I have actually been able to put my hands on one. But I really love that machine after the brief look at it first hand. The larger screen than the 405, the better switch configuration, and the tilting viewfinder are appreciated upgrades. So I'm hoping to find it between $800-900 locally one of these days.

As previously discussed, not all reviewers are totally enthralled with these Sonys, but they suit me fine; just be sure to set the camera down or hold it still during tape finalizing. As time passes, more consumers will chime in with reviews of this year's models, like the 405 and 505, and I look forward to their critiques; they often differ from the editor's reviews, and some are quite revealing of the real-world pluses and minuses. The new Canon 100 and the Sony 105 I think retail about $500 US, and have more powerful zooms than the 405 or 505, but not all the video quality - for the money, though, they are viable options to consider.

I might need to research a solution to the wind noise problem with the Dolby 5.1 microphone, cuz I shoot plenty outdoors on RV and flyfishing jaunts around the U.S., Canada, Alaska, and perhaps Mexico one of these days. 15 years experience has taught me that background wind across a built-in mike can be annoying and distracting during playback, even tho it was unnoticable during shooting. Some editors didn't like the built-in faux Dolby microphone system's sound reproduction, but, except for wind problems outdoors, most consumer reviewers were quite impressed with the surround sound effect on their home theater set ups. I've read that Sony's "hotshoe" auxilliary (and more wind-resistant) mike setup is proprietory - will only take a Sony mike, which, no doubt, goes for an inflated, no-discount price. That doesn't preclude me from trying to configure a foam windscreen of some sort for the built-in mike. We'll see.

Let me know how you're progressing toward procuring a new camera.

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RE: But...
May 27, 2006 5:17PM PDT

I hear what you are saying, and the editing sure does sound a lot easier to figure out on the tapes...but I too, don't normally worry too much about editing,and would probably just delete some things straight away as I am using it....since it's mostly just home movies, the editing -at this stage- isn't something I worry about! I don't intend to rush into anything too soon, as I am also going to buy a still camera. I am currently using a film camera for that too...which is ok, but I am starting to get tired of throwing out all the useless shots, especially now the kids are wanting to take pictures!!!! So that expense is the first one for me. Then in a couple of months I will make a decision, maybe there will be some more personal reviews out on the 405/505 as more people purchase them....you can tell I never make any decisions too lightly..hahaha....I like to take my time alright!

Maybe, in the meantime, I will see how much it will cost to get my current camcorder fixed....although I doubt it would be cheap enough for me to consider since I was never totally thrilled with the quality of the picture, and the old camera I used to have - not digital of course- seemed to take a much better video than this one, especially in the low light! I suppose that is what you were talking about too...