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General discussion

What's your favorite alternative fuel?

Apr 24, 2007 10:45AM PDT

What's your favorite alternative fuel, and why do you think it's the best? Does it offer a possible long-term replacement to gasoline? I've covered some current alternative fuels in my column, Your clean, green car choices.

Discussion is locked

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Amen on that
May 29, 2007 6:21AM PDT

Everything's a trade off, and no single solution is ideal for everyone. That being said, it seems to me that electric offers a substantial upside over much of the competition. Even the "hydrogen solution" is a bit misleading, since fuel cells are just another way of generating ...what? ....riiight. Electric motors seem a more promising platform for future transport than all the 19th century gears, belts, differentials, hydraulics and other arcane mechanical systems we continue to rely on.
It's time to completely rethink & redefine the automobile.

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Alternative fuels
May 9, 2008 12:39PM PDT

No one would be even talking about alternative fuels if the wacko environmentalists have not had their way with the help of the liberals. We have had a 25 year moratorium on drilling for oil in this country and our production has been cut in half, yet we need twice as much, thusly was have to depend on foreign oil. Even though there is enough oil here in the United States to keep us from using any foreign oil for the next 60 years and if the shale oil project near the Rocky Mountains comes to pass, we would have enough oil for the next 100 years. Oil has been found in abundance in North and South Dakota, and the governors of both states are want to let the oil companies drill since this may be one of the largest oil finds on earth. No, we need to let the oil companies do what they do best, find and drill for oil and then let them build new refinery's to make gas, then maybe we can have 38 cent per gallon gas as they do in Saudi Arabia and Kuwait and then we can talk alternative fuels for our homes and factories. But if you need to talk alternatives fuels for automobiles then there is a system of converting H20 to HHO which feeds the hydrogen gas as needed to a normal gasoline car, or as it would be called a Hybrid. Only one quart of this would last for over 4 months and would let a normal gasoline car get up to 90 miles per gallon. Eventually we can go completely to this HH0 fuel, but as a hybrid his has much more power, since there is nothing that can take the place of gasoline for power in the molecular level. How's that for a alternative fuel?

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Biodiesel
Apr 24, 2007 12:56PM PDT

Biodiesel made from algae currently has the most promise as a gasoline replacement. The problem is that everyone seems so stuck on ethanol right now that no one is looking at biodiesel. Hydrogen, though attractive, does not offer the energy return that you get from algae biodiesel. When choosing an alternative fuel you can NOT forget the law of thermodynamics.

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The Ethanol Threat
Apr 29, 2007 6:16PM PDT

The biggest problem with ethanol isn't its corrosiveness, its high surface tension, nor the different air-fuel ratio that it requires for efficent combustion, it's that many people see ethanol as a solution when it most it is a stepping stone to the proper biofuel for gas engines: butanol.

No other fuel could have a greater or more immediate impact on our dependence on foreign oil than cellulosic butanol because all current cars and trucks can use it.

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hydrogen fuel cells
Apr 25, 2007 3:15PM PDT

They must get this up and running - it is pollution free!! (From what I have read about it.)

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Favorite fuel...hmm.
May 2, 2007 2:54PM PDT

That would be nuclear, 4 on North Korea, 3 on Iran, 1 tactical on Syria, 1 on east Pakistan just so they get the idea and maybe one on Egypt just for lying to us.

Pretty soon ...15cent gas.

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FEEDING LEAD TO THE LIBS IS THE ANSWER
May 2, 2007 7:28PM PDT
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cheap gas ,, that's a blast .. I will drink to that
May 3, 2007 7:13AM PDT

[pro'bition],,,
First, it is easy and cheap to make, non toxic and volitility is not that bad...
Second, degradation of any motor parts is managable
Third , when proper tuning / engine management systems are in operation
there is no shortage of power and/or milage is good... just leave it in the hands of CHAMP cars for a couple of years for developement
Forth, most vehicles can make the transition for a reasonable $$$$
....
And sorry.. but Reasonable has to factor in... AntiMatter Generators etc, are not presently an option people...

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My Favorite alternative fuel is Plant oil..
May 2, 2007 3:13PM PDT

My Favorite alternative fuel is Plant oil..or"Veg-oil" as those who use it caily often refer to it.

This is NOT biodiesel. It is plain "ol" fresh (SVO) or recycled (WVO) cooking oil. The technology to convert a diesel engines fuel system ot use it is relativly cheap and simple. But as with most alternative fuels there are some caveats. It IS the most carbon neutral fuel available currently and you do not have to be all that skilled ot convert a car to use it. Did I mention it costs about 12 cents a gallon?

More info on this alternative fuel fuel is availalble at:http://www.websitetoolbox.com/tool/mb/voconversionbasics

The best thing about using VO fuel is that it is actually so cheap to use (if you use recycled Waste Vegetable Oil) that it can pay for the cost of conversion and processing equipment in less than a few months if you have a job that makes you pu on a lot of miles..and less than a year if you put on an average amount of miles each year.

danalinscott@yahoo.com

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What about Hydrogen Internal combustion engines???
May 3, 2007 1:44AM PDT

I get sick and tired about everytime the stupid democrats or republicans and anyone else talks about hydrogen as an alternative fuel, they relate to the the fuel cell...

This concept is just an electric car...

Every automobile (gasoline and diesel) today can be convert to burn hydrogen right now and several individuals have done it... and it is much safer than fossil based I.C.E. (Internal Combustion Engines)...

I prefer to drive a hydrogen ICE vehicle than

THE ONLY PROBLEM WITH HYDROGEN IS AND GET THIS IS WE DON'T HAVE AN INFRASTRUCTURE!!!! THIS IS WHAT WE NEED FIRST...

We need to stop talking about the alternative fuel vehicles and start creating the INFRASTRUCTURE FIRST!!!

Please help me in encouraging the spread of starting the hydrogen infrastructure...

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Expensive H2 for inefficient IC engines?
May 6, 2007 11:31AM PDT

Yes, H2 can fuel IC engines, in spite of hydrogen dissolving into steel and making it brittle...

Quantum Corp. replaced the gas tank on a Toyota Prius with a 10,000 psi compressed H2 tank. In spite of the highly efficient Atkinson-Miller cycle engine, hybrid components, and an added turbocharger, the H2 Prius goes only 80 miles per tank. (Before, it went 500 miles per tank of petrol). Not enough, you say?

Well, how about the BMW "Hydrogen 7", with a 30 gallon liquid H2 tank. Bigger tank, and liquid H2 is denser than compressed H2. It gets 120 miles per tank of H2. Of course, you'll want to use it up right away - if left sitting idle, the entire tank of liquid H2 will evaporate in less than 2 weeks.

The reason "fuel cells" are being pushed is they are about twice as efficient as IC engines, making it barely possible to get an acceptable range. Oh, and the fact that H2 fuel costs more than gasoline means you don't want to waste it in an inefficient engine.

For me, I'd prefer the more efficient and far less expensive electric or plug-in hybrid options. The "electric fuel" infrastructure is already in place!

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Hydrogen is not an ALTERNATIVE fuel
Dec 22, 2007 8:19AM PST

Hydrogen is just a temporary storage method for energy taken from other types of fuel. Energy is needed to make hydrogen out of water, and when the energy is used it is returned to water (and not to destroy the ozonelayer as someone here thought).

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There is a new Hydrogen on Demand generator
Jun 25, 2007 12:25AM PDT

There is an inventors club in Galesburg, IL, at the CSC College, that has invented a "Hydrogen on Demand" generator, that is being installed on a pickup truck, NOW ! This removes the problem of "Infrastructure" as everyone seems worried about, and it also removes the "Explosive" concerns related to the "Bombs" under the seat!! I personally have seen the equipment, and the videos of it in operation. I can not say more, because I have signed a Confidentiality non-disclosure statement. This is no HOAX, and I hope you will find time to check out their Blog site:

http://cscinventorsclub.blogspot.com/

By the way, I do agree with you - why all the interest in fuel-cells? They are very expensive, easily poisioned(ruined), and the maintenance will be cost prohibitive. With something like the CSC club's invention, overall efficiency is not as important!

I found that there are numerous H2ICE(hydrogen internal combusion engine) prototype engines, right now. Ford has a V-10, and a 2.3L, already somewhat perfected to using hydrogen gas.

I'm excited about the possibilities of hydrogen "without the Federal Government telling everyone that we have to have an "Infrastructure", and that we need a few "Lake Michigan's" just to build up some huge bombs?? Let alone the bombs under our car seats.

Thanks for your interest in H2ICE's - It makes much more sense!

DAVe

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Hydrogen without the infrastructure
Jun 25, 2007 12:54AM PDT

If the invention by the CSC college inventors club pans out, the need for infrastructure will not be necessary, at least for automobiles as we know them.

Also, the inefficiency of regular ICE's using hydrogen can be overcome. Ford has 2 H2ICE's - a V10, and a 2.3L Engine. Both have been adapted for the use with hydrogen. Check out these websites:

http://cscinventorsclub.blogspot.com

http://www.ford.com/en/innovation/technology/hydrogenTransport/hydrogenInternalCombustion.htm

http://media.ford.com/newsroom/release_display.cfm?release=26062ted??

These are well worth your while!

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it depends on how you make it...
May 3, 2007 7:40AM PDT
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Electrolysis, yes; from converted AC, no...
May 3, 2007 1:14PM PDT

The article is correct that electrolysis of water is probably the best of several hydrogen-producing processes to use, but it, as has many here, presumed that it would be fueled by commercial AC power, thus requiring the increase consumption of fossil fuels or other non-renewable resources in its manufacture.

However, DC can be produced directly as a result of many other non-polluting processes, such as magnetohydrodynamics (MHD), thermoelectric generators (thermopiles), and, of course, solar cells, which can take advantage of, respectively, hot gas streams produced from other industrial processes, geothermal or other natural heat sources, and, of course, sunlight.

The advantage of using commercially-produced DC to produce H2 rather than just charging electric cars is that it is easier and more efficient to distribute H2 than DC power, long distances.

As to leakage problems, that is something materials engineers will have to tackle. After all, Wankel engines were only a theoretical concept until engineers developed improved seals, and electric/hybrid cars were made practical when new battery materials were developed.

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you missed the main point
May 3, 2007 3:12PM PDT

I think the main point is that batteries are always more efficient than fuel cells. In that article, both fuel cells and batteries have an AC-DC step. If you generate DC with solar power or whatever, your always better to charge a battery than to make hydrogen.

And, it is NOT easier and more efficient to transport H2 than electricity. That article covers the transportation effect. I say electricity because to transport it you have to convert DC to AC. Still, H2 is very inefficient to transport compared to DC>AC>transport>AC>DC.

H2 is the smallest and most leak prone molecule and you're compressing it to the most extreme pressure, and it's corrosive. You would need a perfect system to prevent leaks. It's going to leak.

Today Wankel and piston engines both use seals that leak, but only when operating, and they are "good enough".

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DC to AC?
May 5, 2007 10:43AM PDT

I was under the impression that it was just the opposite, that you have AC generated, sent along high tension lines, where it is stepped down to 440VAC down the street and then to 220VAC at the pole outside your house. Then it is brough into your main circuit box as 120VAC or in the case of necessity it remains at 240VAC.

The problem with the current technology is that even with off-peak production of electric, if it isn't being used, it dissipates in the form of heat. ALso, would it not be a better plan if hypercapacitors/batteries were employed to store energy locally? Even with converting that stored (DC) power and aving to convert to AC, it would only draw power from the grid when the batteries needed charging, and with the highly efficient photovoltaics on the market and some are boasting better than 85% efficiency even on overcast days, you would probably be able to sell power back to the grid.

Wankel was a good idea but poor design. It is leaky, wastes fuel, and does not provide a good alternative to a piston engine.

I still see electric drive the best choice. A high torque/horsepwoer AC motor will provide better economy and performance than any internal combustion engine.

Atomic energy is not necessarily the best way to provide electric to the grid either. As I wrote in another post, unless the reactors are designed better, and what is now called spent fuel can be recycled, The problems associated with dealing with all that atomic waste far exceeeds the benefits.

I guess I'll keep saying it, until everyone gets it: The technology is not the issue, it's simply a matter of money. Yeah, I saw "Who Killed The Electric Car" and "An Inconvveient Truth" and while the latter had many holes in the fabric, The EV1 was killed by the H2 lobby in California.

Here is a thought: What if I invented a device that generates electric without burning fuels, without using chemicals, without dependence on the sun or wind. WHat is I could place a small device in your MotoRAZR and you would never have to charge your cellphone again, ever? What if I could make one large enough to power your home with this same technology? How long before my shop gets burned down, or I am told by DoD that I cannot put this on the market because of National Security issues?

Well? Anyone have answers? Nah, I didn't think so. It will take a revolution to make it happen. What if we all just did not buy fuel on May 15? There are emails going around suggesting this. What impact do you suspect that will have on the oil/gas reserves? One way to find out is to participate in the process.

Fred Mars
Corvallis, OR

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Avoid buying fuel one day a month
May 10, 2007 10:56PM PDT

I propose that the current effort to not buy fuel for automobiles one day a year be expanded to one day a month

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Get Real
Jul 3, 2007 10:46PM PDT

The only way to affect the oil reserves, is to NOT DRIVE anywhere, One Day An Month. Not buying on any certain day only means we put more in when we do buy. Think about it!!

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Absolutely - I agree
Jun 25, 2007 1:00AM PDT

Wankels are the most friendly ICE for hydrogen. Mazda will be importing a duel-fuel Mazda CX7, in 2008, by the article I read the other day, however, the high pressure tank concerns me - and put it along with a gasoline tank ! WOW??

Ford has articles on the internet showing, existing modified engines that are using hydrogen. The sites are:

http://www.ford.com/en/innovation/technology/hydrogenTransport/hydrogenInternalCombustion.htm

I would be mistaken, NOT to include an invention that produces hydrogen-on-demand, eliminating the need for the bomb under the seat. You can read about this at this blog:

http://cscinventorsclub.blogspot.com

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H-y-d-r-o-g-e-n !!! h2 is where it's at
Apr 25, 2007 3:27PM PDT

I can't believe this isn't even an option in this thread? I've talked with an auto industry insider and he says there was a study done in 'overall environmental impact' from car models and the Toyota Prius ranked dead last! Why? Because the battery cells will need to be replaced, and they are highly toxic, among other things. (The highest rated car in the survey was the Yaris, also a Toyota model).

While bio-diesel is a great stopgap fuel alternative, it still isn't as clean as nothing. As in hydrogen. CNG, ethanol, and electric I think are simply harder to have universal access to. I can't wait for hydrogen fuel cell cars (& trucks/ess-you-vees) to make it to the market. There have already been some successful prototypes, it's basically range and cost of manufacturing that is holding them back (from what I understand).

A newer alternative is Lithium-Ion, like the Chevy Volt or the swank new Tesla. But again, it is the battery thing. However, the Tesla is pretty sexy for alternative fuel (really, really sexy).

I remember reading a couple years ago that GM was not going to get into the hybrid market and was working diligently on h2 cars (that's changed now)... That, (again) hybrids aren't a perfect solution, they are a stopgap. BMW purportedly has an h2 prototype car, but won't release anything in the near future. Several other mfr's are well along as well.

What I think may be truly exciting is to see if a new car manufacturer arrives with h2 fuel. Not a new badge from a current mfr, but a whole new company. It could be an opportune time to introduce themselves as a customer is looking for something new. Somebody that wants to join the fray, like a new Sparrow model, or a DeLorean... (Is Sir Richard Branson a reader of CNet forums?).

I realize the implications: a dealer network, parts network, mfr'g facilities, etc (read HUNDREDS of millions of USD at the barest minimum)... But it would be a great time and I think people would be more receptive to NEW than they would be if one were to try to compete against the current market leaders (read: Brilliance selling in US and Europe), with a similar product (read: combustion engine).

Well, others may disagree, but that's my take. My .05 cents FWIW. (haven't you heard .02 has gone up with inflation?). Cheers.

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H-y-d-r-o-g-e-n ?? h2 is obsolete
Apr 26, 2007 3:34PM PDT

The problems with H2 are many. It is an extremely bulky fuel, getting enough stored to drive a car a reasonable distance is a major problem. Compressed at 10,000 psi (5 TONS per sq. inch!) in expensive and heavy carbon fiber tanks a gallon of compressed H2 has only 1/5 the energy of a gallon of gasoline. Liquified at ultra-cold temps and stored in expensive dewar flasks, a gallon of liquid H2 has only 1/4 the energy of a gallon of gasoline. BMWs "Hydrogen 7" has a 30 gallon liquid H2 tank, but goes only 120 miles per tank, 4 mpg, and needs a 16.7 gallon petrol tank to get a reasonable range.
Hydrogen is a very small molecule, it leaks easily, and diffuses right through most materials. It can dissolve into steel, making it brittle.
While there are many ways of making H2, they are all expensive and inefficient. The cheapest way of making H2 is from natural gas (CH4), a fossil fuel. More efficient to use natural gas directly.

But the biggest problem for H2 promoters is getting people to ignore all of the clean, cheaper, and more efficient alternatives that are available.

P.S. Prodesma, your "auto industry insider" is feeding you a line. Toyota has not had to replace NiMH batteries in the Prius. There are 10 year old Prius in Japan running on original NiMH batteries. There are Prius that have gone over 200,000 miles (one over 300,000 miles!) and are still running on their original NiMH batteries. That is why Toyota offers a 10 year 150,000 mile warranty on the NiMH battery. When Toyota does have to replace a NiMH battery, it will be recycled - the nickel in them is too valuable to discard. The NiMH batteries are not "highly toxic", they are much less toxic than the standard lead acid starter batteries in all other cars!

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Okay, fair enough
Apr 26, 2007 3:52PM PDT

So, you may not believe my source for the "overall environmental impact" study. But this takes into account manufacturing, use, and overall lifecycle. I never said Prius batteries HAVE NEEDED to be replaced. I said they WILL NEED to be. Apparently that waste (even with the nickel recycling you mention) puts it in a poor overall position.

While you state H2 is obsolete, and in another post that steam is obselete... Okay, fair enough.

I appreciate your opinions on electric, but I sincerely doubt that "Electrical production and distribution systems are in place" to meet the overwhelming demand that EV's would have. Maybe about 20 more Hoover Dams in the USA would help. (uh, I say that somewhat sarcastically, please don't take offense. I've already noted my skepticism to the current electrical stations being able to cope).

Thanks for taking the time to respond. I think the more conversation to be had, the better. Better solutions are clearly needed. And consumer awareness is a great step in the right direction. Cheers.

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Electrical supply problems? maybe not...
Apr 26, 2007 4:10PM PDT

It takes electricity to run refineries and pump gas. Turns out that the amount of electricity needed to make a gallon of gas will drive an electric car about as far as a gallon of gas will drive an IC engine car.
So with more electrics and plug-in hybrids, there is less gasoline made, and thus less electricity used by refineries! Neat, huh!
Also, most of the car recharging will occur at night, when most businesses are shut down, electricity demand is lowest, and lots of surplus electricity is available - cheap.

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Plug in's help to balance electrical load
May 2, 2007 1:25PM PDT

Most plug in vehicles will be plugged into the power grid at night when their is actually a surplus of power and actually help to balance the daily power load and make use of the surplus generation capacity at night. Some electrical utilities offer lower prices during off peak times so a win-win

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I agree with electric but no one is suggesting that we use
May 2, 2007 6:30PM PDT

I agree with electric but no one is suggesting that we use solar panels to provide the electricity. Yes they are an expensive initial investment but once they pay for them selfs its basically free energy and a surplus in most cases (ie you will receive a check from the electric company). This will reduce the drain on the current electrical market as well as adding a boost of extra energy to it.

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Solar Panels are great, but...
May 3, 2007 7:47AM PDT

It takes 8 years to generate enough power from a solar panel to recoup the electricity put into its manufacture. Then, it's free power for the remaining life of the panel.

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That is by design
Jul 4, 2007 4:54AM PDT

The only reason that Photovoltaics are cost prohibitive is because the manufacturers keep it that way be design. They charge enough so that when everyone in the community has them, they will not go belly up. Designs of Solar/wind combination systems can produce more electric than the average residence can consume, so they will always be "spinning the meter backwards" and generating income. The utility companies will then belly up if they have to buy energy from those that they used to charge.

Auto makers burn R & D dollars in alternative fuels to appease the petro-chemical industry that would stand to lose the most with all electric transportation.

But consider the most blatant example of high power electric motors versus all others. The Diesel-Electric locomotive is the best example of how electric is vastly superior to all other drive motors. The diesel engines turn turbines to produce the electricity for the twin 6000HP electric motors. Using advance battery technology to store some of that generated electric would save millions of gallons of fuel, since the diesel would only have to burn while generating electric for higher emand, such as starting up from a standstill, or climbing a steep grade. Batteries with solar backup can produce enough power to keep the electric motors running and the diesels can shut down.

There are ways to do things more affordably or more efficiently than what we have been doing.

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No I'm sorry.
Jul 4, 2007 4:05PM PDT

First, auto makers burn through R&D because government is dumb enough to hand out money. Even if they have no interest in building "X" car, if government is going to hand them a silver plater, of course they are going to take it. If government would stop throwing our tax money out the window, auto makers would only invest R&D into projects they intended to use.

Second, no PV cells are not cost prohibitive because of some stupid theory. Manufacturers would LOVE to make solar panels cheaply. Realize something important: Solar panels do not last forever. They fade over time, and eventually need replaced. A solar panel loses 2% of it's total factory wattage in the first 2 hours of use. Further, it loses at least 1% per year. On average, a solar panel that is 30 years old will function at 63% at best, not including other limiting factors.

Point is, the factory would love to make them cheap enough that everyone could buy them, because they'd never be out of work. By the time everyone had solar panels covering their homes, the oldest ones would need replaced. It would be a billion dollar industry in no time. Then everyone would be complaining about "big solar" and we'd have fruit bats talking about how "big solar" was preventing better energy sources from coming to market.

Lastly, Diesel locomotives is where it's at. I surprised that you are the very first who seems to know about this amazingly efficient setup. There is a company called E-traction that has a working system. They converted a regular city bus, and it uses a fraction of the fuel of a normal bus. Plus, it's so quiet, locals call it the whisper buss. I heard one city in the US is starting a pilot program with E-traction to use it on their city buses.

A comparison: A normal city bus gets 4 mile per gallon at near 55 mph. The E-traction bus gets 14 mpg at 55 mph. All city buses should use this technology. Again, it's so simple, it's scary. You have a diesel motor running a generator. The generator runs an electric motor in the wheels. That's it.

The locomotive industry has had billions to spend on making the most efficient design they possibly could, and this is it. Why no one else has caught on is beyond me. This is way old technology, and no one thought to use it in an automobile, really strange. To triple gas mileage in something as large and heavy as a bus... it's hard to guess what it may do in a sedan.