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General discussion

What is a good camera that has a hard drive?

Jun 14, 2006 1:00PM PDT

I'm looking for a video camera that stores everything on it's own harddrive. I'm having a hard time figuring out what type of media this is called. I don't want to deal with little tapes or little cd's. I want the capability to upload whatever I recorded onto my computer and burn it to an actual DVD so I can play on my DVD player. Please help! Thanks in advance Wink

Discussion is locked

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(NT) (NT) JVC makes some. John
Jun 22, 2006 1:16AM PDT
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I have the JVC
Jun 23, 2006 12:58AM PDT

I bought the JVC 20 gb almost a year ago. It was the largest HD available at the time. I paid around $750 for it at Best Buy. THe picture quality is not the best, but it goes FOREVER!!! No need to swap tapes or dvds, just keep recording until the drive is full, and it usually can record around 4 hours straight before the drive is full. Not bad... The only thing you cannot swap hard drives out when it is full, so you have to empty it onto your computer. It has a card slot, too. It's ultra light and small, so it's easy to carry around.

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(NT) (NT) Sony just introduced a new one.
Jun 22, 2006 6:02AM PDT
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go with the sony
Jun 23, 2006 12:17AM PDT

I have a jvc dv camera and it broke after only 2 years. Most of the camera worked, it was just a small part that failed in reading the tape. My grandma has had a problem with her JVC not working becuase of small problems. The new gernation might have better quality control, but i wouldn't take the chance.

skijon

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Avoid the Sony and anything they make
Jun 23, 2006 8:11AM PDT

Have we all so quickly forgotten what Sony did to their customers? I'm talking about the flawed rootkit they surepticiosly installed on everybody's computer who played a Sony CD on their computer...Which opened a potential opening for anyone to gain access to your computer without your knowing....or was it flawed?
I would't trust anything Sony made that required that I install somethig on my computer or insert to my computer...and with Sony's draconian copyright demands, it is quite possible that they might even embed DRM in every video you create...and if their cameras are anything like their MP3 players, they probably require a proprietary video format and probably need to be converted to use in a standard computer...Mind you, I don't know any of this for sure, I'm just going on past experiences with how Sony does business and how they like to stick it to the very people they rely on...their customers..
So, don't forget...Sony hates and distrusts you...so reciprocate!
Ed

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Be careful
Jun 23, 2006 12:15AM PDT

I agree with your camcorder wants. I thought it was really exciting that c-corders were coming out with hard drives. However, the JVC models have no viewfinders, only lcd's. I do most of my 'cording outside, and they'll wash out in the sun. The Sony is grossly expensive at this time, plus, only has 10x zoom. One other point about these... they use compression just like the mini-dvd camcorders, so if absolute top-notch quality is what you seek, best to pass on these. Again, with time, they'll get better (and hopefully less expensive), but for now, the good old mini-dv is the best way to go, imho.

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Another reason to be careful
Jun 23, 2006 3:44AM PDT

First, I must disagree with 'jacko73' about two things. The LCD's within the last couple years are excellent in the sun. You will notice that they are polarized and directionally filtered towards your eyes, making them easily viewable even in bright Mexican or caribean sunshine, you can see everything clearly.

My second disagreement is jacko's reference to compression. Compression does not infer a lesser quality. It is only the way data is read, written, and organized, and not necessarily the time or quality of playback for the user. Quality would better be judged by FPS(frames per second), resolution, or something related to the actual images played back. DVD's when played back for instance, have a 256 bit encryption decrypted on the fly during playback. All of this data crunching has nothing to do with the quality.

Another reason you should think twice though before buying one of these hard drive cam's though is that you will be storing alot of data on the drive which means that you have alot of data to lose should it get stolen or dropped. (You say it won't happen, but it will...) Eventually, your hard drive will fail, like most hard disks, and when it does, you will lose your latest wedding footage, or vacation and more. On every hard drive there is a warning, "Do Not Drop.!" Even if it's just a couple G's worth of shock, your drive may not work again. Also, this is another specialty component worth more than the camera. They do not take the average laptop size hard drive, and the parts are extremely expensive with long shipping to get there. Going with the mini DV cam gives you up to 6Mbps data rate which is already huge quality.

Something to consider anyways, but it would be nice if the camera was flash based HD at about 4 - 10 gigs. That would rule out mechanical wearout and breakage.

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Without knowing what kind of compression is used on a
Jun 23, 2006 4:18PM PDT

camera, hard disk or otherwise, it is impossible to discuss the effect. However, if it is something like mpeg2, and it probably is, you will lose a lot of quality if you want to edit the video. We've seen it already on the DVD camcorders, and we will see it on hard drive based recorders if they use the same compression technology. You simply cannot throw away most of the video data, and expect a compression algorithm to insulate you from losses. We've had this discussion before, so don't get fooled by the people who say there is no problem. They will be long gone by the time you come back asking for help with making the thing work.

Same thing with LCDs. Don't believe it until you can see it for yourself.

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Compression is not the problem
Jun 23, 2006 8:22AM PDT

I too have to disagree on the compression issue.
When you RAR or ZIP a file and then unRAR or unZIP the file, there is no loss in the quality of that file...in fact it is the exact file digit for digit.
This, of course is a prime example of Lossless compression.
Another form of compression is Lossy. This form of compression is common in video, images and audio compression. And while Lossy does throw away data, it's the decompression device that dictates the quality of the viewed or listened to media.
A good example is the Apple iPod which has a notoriously poor mp3 decoder.
http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-11297_7-6510133-1.html
The same is true of video decoders.
If all you're trying to do is dump your video to a DVD, then most decoders will do the trick.
But if you want to edit the video and reassemble into a cohesive format that shows structure and THEN burn to DVD, then you need to get out of the MPEG arena.
Here's the deal, Lossy, by definition, deletes content to acheive a high level of compression, so every time you edit and save lossy data, stuff gets thrown away...so if you continuously edit your video, everytime you save and open for editing, you are reducing the quality of the video.
The first thing you should do with a video is convert to a lossless format and make your edits in that format, then convert to dvd.
Here is a good article on this:
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/using/moviemaker/expert/digitalvideo.mspx

Ed

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If you record 3 or 4 hours of video, you are going to have
Jun 23, 2006 4:24PM PDT

to edit it unless you burn to dual layer. At that point, mpeg compression will bite you in the a**. It is not dependent on repeated edits. It will get you on the first edit. We've seen this whole claim before with the DVD recorders. The claim of no problem lasted until people started coming back with problems. Then, the proponents disappeared never to be heard from again.

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I have the GZ-MG70US from JVC...
Jun 23, 2006 2:55AM PDT

and I love it. The picture quality on a SDTV is as good as anything I get from a DVD (even a nice progressive scan). The file format for video is MPEG (although the camcorder calls them .MOD files on its internal disk).

I can use any of my various DVD writing apps to make DVDs that are playable on most DVD players with no problems.

This model has a 30GB HDD, and can record 14 hours at standard resolution or 7 hours at high resolution without deleting anything.

It connects through a USB 2.0 connector to my PC, and I can copy the files over and work with them directly (by renaming them to MP3) or I can save them in the .MOD form and use the software included with the camcorder to "convert" them to MPEG format (no noticeable change in picture quality either way).

I haven't had any problems with the viewfinder being the LCD display except when the sun is shining directly over my shoulder at it (like if I'm shoting early morning/late evening with the sun behind me), but even then it is useable even if it is washed out. I DO wish I had a standard viewfinder, but it's only because I'm used to the older 8mm and VHS camcorders.

This particular model has a 2 megapixel resolution, so video at HDTV resolutions is unrealistic. If you need that level of resolution, you'll want to go with a much fancier camera than this.

Oh, BTW, it also takes decent 2MP stills, and can be configured to save photos to the SD card or to the HDD, so if you want to use it for still shots as well, it may be worth it to have an SD card (although with 30GB, you can store quite a few photos :> ).

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Makes a horse race....
Jun 23, 2006 5:48AM PDT

Well, we can argue the merits and demerits forever, but my experience with far too many camcorders (wish I still had the money ;-() is that NO lcd screen can compete with the framing and visibility of a good viewfinder, especially in bright sun. And yes, my latest is only 2 months old and the lcd washes out in sun just like the others. There is a difference in degree, but still. I record many airshows, and I would never, ever, ever have a camera with no viewfinder. If, however, you are satisfied with the functionality of the lcd alone, more power to you.

Same goes for compression. Sorry, folks... I can see the difference. And I don't even have to strain. Again, if it doesn't bother you, go for it. I only point out these things to hopefully help somebody before their money is used... something I wish somebody had done for me. Actually, I read the reviews and chose to ignore them, so... ebay, here comes a few more items. Let me reiterate... if these things aren't that important to you, that is fine. Personally, I want the maximum quality that I can afford. I only hope that someday there will be a HD recorder with a decent viewfinder and a compression algorythm I can live with for a price I can handle. Until then, the best quality, as judged by experts in the field, will be had using mini-dv.

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There is such a camcorder, but the price of admission
Jun 23, 2006 4:32PM PDT

is pretty high. The Canon XL2 can direct its signal to a hard drive, but there is no additional compression of the normal DV. Therefore, a pretty good sized HD is needed. That's a pretty hefty increase on top of the already high price of the XL2.

BTW, I'm told the High Def version of the XL2 can also direct its output to a hard drive, but you need a disk array to keep up with the data flow from the camera.

Wink