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Sorry Charlie, but there could not be more difference.
Muslims believe that Jesus was a prophet, but no more than that. In other words, he was a man who was born, but was spared death which would otherwise have been his in the normal course of events. He was not even the greatest of the prophets; Mohammad(sp?) was.
Christians believe, and Jesus said, that He is God. He is God the Son, the second person of the trinity. All things were made by Him, and nothing was made which was not made by Him. In other words, He was not created, but was eternally preexistant. He will one day rule at the right hand of God the Father.
Muslims do not believe in the trinity. I have been told that they find the concept abhorrent. Thus, the gap between Islam and Christianity is unbridgeable. One cannot believe that both are true.
NT - Are there only Christians?
Ahhh, quite true! Who then is not so far apart from the Muslims
when one considers what they think about Jesus? I guess atheists would consider Jesus a mere man (and, therefore, either a pathological liar or a raving lunatic), but they wouldn't accept Allah either. So, who is the 'we' of your original post.
Re:Ahhh, quite true! Who then is not so far apart from the Muslims
I guess atheists would consider Jesus a mere man (and, therefore, either a pathological liar or a raving lunatic)...
Actually all non-christians believe he was a mere man but that doesn't mean that they think he was a pathological liar or a raving lunatic either. I believe he was a jewish visionary that tried to teach that forgiveness should be preferred over the traditional jewish belief in an 'eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth'. He believed that this would allow all men to live in peace and harmony. I don't think that he was either a pathological liar or a raving lunatic, just a man with a vision of all people treating others the way they would like to be treated.
Then you haven't read what he said very carefully.
He claimed to be God according to the historical documents which record his life. If He wasn't, then, logically, you can only conclude that was either a liar or a lunatic. Many try to believe that He was just a good man. He didn't leave us that choice unless its made in ignorance of what He said and did.
Re: Sorry Charlie, but there could not be more difference.
It really depends on the Christian denomination. Non-trinitarian denominations aren't all that different from what you report -- in fact, there are strong parallels to Mormons' beliefs. Some cynics have even suggested that's not accidental...
-- Dave K, Speakeasy Moderator
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The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!
I wouldn't call non-trinitarians Christians.
There are a core set of beliefs that must be adhered to before a group can legitimately call itself Christian. The trinity is one of those. I think the use of the word christian by other groups is an attempt to make themselves more acceptable to the uninformed person, but frequently damages the authentic Christian community.
Yes, I agree that there are strong parallels between Mormonism and Islam.
What do Muslims believe about Jesus? The Core Belief of Jesus (a.s)
According to Islam, the core beliefs before one can legitimately call himself a Christian or known to the Muslims as "People of the Book" (Ahlul- Kitab in Arabic), meaning the followers of the Scriptures of God by which Jesus peace and blessings of Allaah did himself.
"And Jesus answered him, the first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is One Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment." Mark 12:29-30
Same teachings when God spoke to Prophet Moses (a.s) said,
"... that the LORD he [is] God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: [there is] none else." Deuteronomy 4:39.
"Thou shalt have no other gods before me." Exodus 20:3
"For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name [is] Jealous, [is] a jealous God:" Exodus 34:14
"...before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, [even] I, [am] the LORD; and beside me [there is] no savior." Isaiah 43:10-11.
"...I [am] the first, and I [am] the last; and beside me [there is] no God." Isaiah 44:6
".... I [am] the LORD, and [there is] none else." Isaiah 45:6
"...I [am] the LORD; and [there is] none else." Isaiah 45:18.
"...I [am] God, and [there is] none else." Isaiah 45:22
Here is what 'the Book' and Jesus say about His identity. (groan Part 1)
ASV John 1:1 'In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.'; subsequent versus make it clear who the Word is: John 1:14 'And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us (and we beheld his glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father), full of grace and truth.' - the Word who was God is Jesus.
In this passage, Jesus is directly claiming to be YAWEH (God): NIV John 8:57-58 'You are not yet fifty years old," the Jews said to him, "and you have seen Abraham!" 58 "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"' - Jesus is referring to NIV Ex 3:14 ('God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.'" where God said His name is 'I AM' (YAWEH).) In response, the Jews took up stones to kill Jesus, and rightly so. Jesus had just claimed to be the eternally existant God.
In John 14, Jesus speaks of the Father and of Himself as the Son - John 14:8-9 NIV 'Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?' - then in verse 13 - 'And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father.'
Here is what 'the Book' and Jesus say about His identity. (groan Part 2)
Finally, when confronted by the risen Jesus, Thomas in John 20:28-29 exclaims '"My Lord and my God!"'. That was blasphemy, but instead of repudiating what Thomas said, 'Jesus said to him, "Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed."'.
There are many other sources I could cite, but space does not permit it here. Let me know if you would like a fuller explanation and I will give you my email address.
The word 'One' you noted in Deuteronomy 6:4, can mean 'It stresses unity while recognizing diversity within that oneness. (from Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament. Copyright (c) 1980 by The Moody Bible Institute of Chicago. All rights reserved. Used by permission.)'. In other words, God is 'One' in this verse just as a cluster of grapes is 'one'. Thus, it is perfectly consistent with the idea of trinity.
Re:Here is what 'the Book' and Jesus say about His identity. (groan Part 1&2)
We can go on about the identity of Jesus (Alayhi salam -peace be upon him) through countless refutations but I must respectfully decline a seemingly tempting invitation. My time is precious and too limited to excite unnecessary burst of ego.
From the wisdom of the wise Companion of the Prophet saaw who said, "A man came to al-Hasan (al-Basree) and said, "O Abu Sa'eed! Let me debate with you about the Religion." Al-Hasan replied, "As for me, I know my religion, if you have lost your Religion then go and look for it."
In addition, the 109th Chapters of the Qur'an said,
1. Say: O ye that reject Faith!
2. I worship not that, which ye worship,
3. Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
4. And I shall not worship that which ye have been worshipping.
5. Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
6. To you be your Way, and to me mine (Islamic Monotheism).
Therefore, I am taking this position under advisement of my religion, Islam. And thank you for your time.
That's what freedom of belief is all about.
You can choose as you wish, and go your way.
i have come to the conclusion that this thread 'should' be called
"theory and imagination" to the rescue....
maybe it's just me, but quoting a book written 650 years after jesus was around to define "the trinity" is akin to using "star wars" to define the universe....
Re:i have come to the conclusion that this thread 'should' be called
"theory and imagination" to the rescue....jonah jones
I heard this quote from an atheist many times before.
Re:Re:i have come to the conclusion that this thread 'should' be called
#I heard this quote from an atheist many times before#
and i've heard that from many a 're-born/newly converted' "whatever" before....
Edward O'Daniel - Good job :)
I see a "revert" who better do some digging...Edward O'Daniel
I am happy to see that you are seeking knowledge of Islam. Good job! Good start!
Due to the limitation of characters allotted in a post, I had cut short Qur'an (30:29) by wanting to emphasize this keyword -->"...Allah's Fitrah which leads to the hadith ->...parents making a child a Jew, Christian or a magian...Full detailed explanation, see also The Linguistic Meaning of Fitrah -- the last paragraph in which I quoted the same postings.
Your AKA referring to Sahih Muslim is incorrect because Sahih means "Authentic". There are levels of chain of narrations being sahih is the most authentic and deaf (means the lowest and weak chain of narration whose evidences is untraceable). Sahih Muslim therefore means Authentic chain of narration by Imam Muslim rahimahu'allaah who is born, Abul Husain Muslim bin (<-son of -> ) al-Hajjaj from al-Nisapuri. This kind of naming is called Kunyah.
Then you went on by saying that Prophet sallalahu alayhi wasalam said that man are all created equal, Except ---you left it unfinished quote. It should be...
"An Arab is no better than a non-Arab. In return, a non-Arab is no better than an Arab. A red raced man was not better than a black one except in piety. Mankind are all Adam's children and Adam was created out of clay." [Al-Bukhari and Muslim, on the authority of Abu Musa] There are similar chain of narration regarding this subject.
according to the book of "Aird el yom, b'il teez el-radah" you are talking soooooooooooooooooooooooo much b/s.......
you have the authentic ring of the converts (and i mean convert, not revert) fanaticism.....
Yes he/she does...
and grasps at straws rather than seeking substantiation of what he/she has found.
Why then were Arabs so prominent in the slave trade?
It appears to by you who is 'seeking knowledge'...
as I have been subjected to various beliefs and cultures throughout my service.
My AKA was correct. Sahih Muslim is a collection of ahadith by Abul Husain Muslim bin al-Hajjaj al-Nisapuri and is recognized widely as being one of if not THE foremost authentic Sunnah of the Prophet (pbuh). Of over 300,000 ahadith collected, only ~4000 made it into his collection based on his extrordinarily stringent acceptance criteria.
This might help your "studies" - http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/033.smt.html
It is good you "seek knowledge" but bad that you seek to present as fact that which is misrepresentative fiction. Read all presented chapter 6 and you will discover the error of your misrepresentation.
In response to Kiddpeat -- Arabs prominent in slave trade.
The link you posted appears to be quite accurate. Thanks and I have added it to my favorites.
You asked, "Why then were Arabs so prominent in the slave trade?"
Did you not read the whole ten parts document?
Anyhow, may I refer you to the paragraph 20 (Part 2)document states:-
The three major religions of that day, Judaism, Christianity and Islam found a rationale for slavery that they could live with. Slavery was practiced and the Africans were scattered throughout the world as though they were a people outside of the grace of God. Because Africans lost more than any other people in human history have lost, they have more to restore than any other people. Although some things will never be restored. In the Arab slave trade, that started before the rise of Islam, and the European slave trade, that started in the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries, and the colonialism that followed, Africa has suffered through more than five hundred years of foreign domination.
Note the bolded, underlined text. Even though slavery was abolished in the advent of Islam, the stubborn ARABS who belong to the elite continued to have slaves.
And in our time for those who can afford, it's called "Merry Maids", to be a little detailed some may call this service "Nanny for Hire"...Except our modern time, they got paid. In Saudi Arabia -- they are called Domestic Helpers Asian part of the world continued to practice abuse of their maids - as such not being paid, fed, etc. The modern names for slaves.
Again, thanks for the link. It was a very interesting document.
Perhaps then, you will now answer one of my original questions.
Why do Muslims in the Sudan practice slavery TODAY? They enslave Christian Sudanese in southern Sudan. BTW, are all failures of Islam attributed to those who disobey its teachings? Why is there so much disobedience?
Re:Perhaps then, you will now answer one of my original questions.
How would you answer those last two questions if asked about christians?
When Christians have failed, there has been vigorous debate and condemnation.
In both England and the United States, it was Christians who led the way in outlawing slavery in spite of opposition by other Christians.
In the protestant reformation, it was Christians who condemned the church for its hypocrasy and moral failure. They created new institutions which were designed to overcome the failures.
It was Christians who led the way in developing education for the common man, hospitals, orphanages, and other institutions. Many of these were designed to implement reforms to prior bad practices of the church.
Disobedience, while seen in the Christian church, has not led to widespread terrorist attacks, slavery, oppression of women, etc. Where it has, it not hard to find Christians who will openly condemn the activity.
True, for the most part.
Disobedience, while seen in the Christian church, has not led to widespread terrorist attacks, slavery, oppression of women, etc.
Western history is filled with slavery and near slavery.
The Basques and Irish are old hands at terrorism.
Oppression of women in one form or another was fairly formal until quite recently. It was only 80 years ago that they were allowed to vote in this country. And far more recently they were excluded from many activities and professions.
EOD: No, that is NOT 'the Christian version'
Got that link EOD.
That's where I checked the hadith you quoted.
You have not provided the daleel (evidence of your supposedly man, the image of God). Still waiting.
Read all of what chapter 6 presents and seek the "evidence" in ANY friendly neighborhood Quar'an.
Don't expect to be handed everything on a silver platter--directions were given that you can surely follow.
PS - Your habit of responding out of sequence and to inappropriate posts might (just might) indicate the possible problem you seem to be having locating the proofs and evidence you should already be familiar with as a fairly recent convert.
Re:i have come to the conclusion that this thread 'should' be called
and i've heard that from many a 're-born/newly converted' "whatever" before....jonah jones
Aha! This is getting better...
Accoring to Islam, every infant is born a Muslim.Every child is born in this pure state of fitrah. Isl
Converts is what others would call a Muslim who decided to believe in the Islamic Faith. Islamically, the correct terminology would be "Reverts" -- Reverting to his natural religion, which is Submission to the Creator.
I reverted in 1991. I still feel I am always a new revert. There is so much to learn about Islam, so little time to learn it all.
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