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General discussion

What are my choices if I don't want to upgrade to Windows 10

Dec 20, 2019 4:22PM PST

I am using Windows 7 and I don't want to upgrade to Windows 10. What are my choices? Could I go to an Apple Mac [or] tablet to do my banking and other sensitive stuff and keep Windows 7 on my 2-year-old HP computer for doing other things? Any concern or risk for me continuing to use Windows 7? Thank you.

--Submitted by Jack K.

Discussion is locked

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Windows 10 Painless?
Jan 14, 2020 5:05PM PST

As usual, I’m a little late to the party on this, but as it turns out I have close, personal, recent experience that intersects with much of what has been said here. For all of those who insist that the switch to Windows 10 is painless and without drama; I beg to differ.

I have often pleaded with people here to give Linux a chance as I have lived almost exclusively in the Linux world for over a dozen years. I do however have a Lenovo G50 laptop that came with Windows 10 that I bought 5 or 6 years ago. I immediately turned it into a dual boot (Windows – Linux Mint) and it was intended for my wife’s daily use, but she so hated the keyboard that we soon bought her a used iMac, installed Linux Mint, and never looked back. The Lenovo now lives most of its life in the closet relegated to emergency back-up duties and for those extremely rare instances where I absolutely, positively MUST use Windows to accomplish a given task.

I had such a need about 2 weeks ago. I use the term “need” loosely as I was really only interested in making a Neverware / Cloudready installation USB, and this is only possible using Windows – at least, as far as I know. Anyway, I drug out the old Lenovo and fired up the Windows side. Now mind you, I had cleverly avoided any updates on this machine as during the little bit of time I had spent in Windows on this machine had been under close monitoring by me and I was always able to delay them. But this time I booted it up and walked away for a while, and when I returned Bill Gates knowing so much better what’s good for me than I do, had assumed complete control of my computer and initiated an update. When it was finished, I was left with a Windows machine with no functioning wifi. I depend on this as it is very inconvenient for me to take this to the one place in the house that has an ethernet connection. Besides all that, it had been working perfectly just a short time earlier!

The first thing I did was shut it down and try the wifi on the Linux side of the box. No problems there, the thing was working perfectly on the same internal wireless card that Windows refused to play with. Next, I tried everyone of a handful of wireless USB dongles I’ve bought over the years. I’ve had Linux distros in the past that would ignore the internal wireless card, but none that would refuse to work with one of these external dongles. But Windows did. I drug the laptop to the ethernet connection and hooked it up – worked fine. Just no wifi.

I then did what everyone else does; I went on a 2-week search of every website or discussion forum I could find that addressed this problem. I tried every point-and-click remedy I could find. I tried the self diagnosis tool. It said “Couldn’t solve the problem”. Didn’t say it couldn’t find one, just that it couldn’t solve it, and it didn’t tell me what it was. Of course my research turned up pages of people complaining about the same or similar problems after an update. There were tons of power shell commands suggested, some with restarts suggested in between, and I tried them all with no results. I tried to update the driver and was told it was already up to date. I tried regressing to an earlier driver...no soap. I have ordered a wireless dongle on Amazon that claims to be plug-n-play with Windows 10. I’m not holding my breath. At this point, I’ve just about run out of ideas and energy to fix a problem in a computer that I almost never use. When I absolutely have to use Windows, I can drag this box over to the ethernet, do what I need to do, and put it away again for another 6-12 months. Or, I can fire up the Linux side of the same box and rock-n-roll with no problems.

I honestly don’t know how you poor schmucks who are convinced that you are chained at the ankle to this operating system can abide by it. And as providence would have it, just today a story broke on the news that there is a big, gaping, security breach recently discovered in Windows 10. For all of you successfully using Windows 10 that are telling everyone else that they won’t have any problems...how dare you? You have no way of knowing that! For all of you who haven’t yet made the switch...Beware! If you switch and have the same problem I did or a similar one and aren’t able to fix it yourself, to whom will you turn? “Computers is Us”? At what cost? And how long before you have to pay them again? This all reinforces what I’ve said for years: “Windows is something easily looked through, easily broken, and expensive to repair.”


I will make my pitch yet one more time. I know some of the people reading here are no computer scientists. Neither am I. I sincerely doubt that that many of the people who use computers here DON’T have a smart phone. Android or iPhone, no matter – you learned to use it. Was it a little intimidating at first? Of course. Was there a learning curve? Yes. Did it get easier over time, maybe even a little more quickly than you thought? Yes. Learning to use Linux is absolutely no tougher than that. In fact, I would argue that it is easier to switch from Windows to Linux than it is to switch from Windows to Mac. I’ve done that and I feel qualified to say so. I still favor Linux Mint as I believe it to be the easiest transition, but any of the Ubuntu based “flavors” should be fine. You can do a “dual boot” and keep your Windows 7 installed for those proprietary “Windows only” tasks. The auto installer in any of the Ubuntu based Linux flavors will simply ask you if you want to install Linux next to Windows. Simply choose that and all the partitioning will be done automatically. You will have a small boot menu at start-up that will show Linux at the top, but will show Windows farther down the list. Simply tap the down arrow key to highlight Windows, hit “Enter” and you’re right back in your Windows machine.

I know the description of the task of downloading and “burning” the Linux iso image to a DVD or USB can be intimidating, so why not just take all the drama out of it? Shown here is a site where you can purchase a bootable Linux distro on either a DVD or USB:

https://www.ebay.com/i/283715440686?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-117182-37290-0&mkcid=2&itemid=283715440686&targetid=537215870608&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=1023726&poi=&campaignid=6470648147&mkgroupid=74956728902&rlsatarget=pla-537215870608&abcId=1139336&merchantid=6296724&gclid=CjwKCAiA6vXwBRBKEiwAYE7iS7fuPXz6pYXxDakHF0W0r6eT9oDmopfjSiSWoZ8fSRQIcrPqxO9QvhoCUQEQAvD_BwE


This is exactly how I started! If you have a DVD drive, the disks are less expensive and will work just as well. Some laptops no longer come with optical drives, so there a USB will be required. There are several versions shown of Linux Mint and Zorin which is also very good for Windows refugees. The “Cinnamon” desktop is great for computers with a lot of speed and memory, the “XFCE” version should be chosen for older computers or ones with more modest specs. This site is just an example of many others where you can buy ready to install Linux Distros. Get your “Google on” and take a look. Keep in mind, these are “Live” distros that (unlike Windows) allow you to boot up and try them on for size before you install. Are you really going to tell me that you’ve paid hundreds of dollars over the years for Windows and you can’t or won’t pay just a couple of dollars to try Linux? If you won’t help yourself then no one else can either! What do you have to lose?

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I Would Really Like to Know...
Jan 14, 2020 6:15PM PST

Why does it seem so important for you to have people try or use LINUX? I never have gone on a LINUX site and tried to convince people to use Windows. Ever. Is it a fan-boy thing? Why does it seem so important? If people prefer one or the other, that is fine. Use it in the best of health. But many of us have reasons for our choices. In many cases, it was that we learned on or the other and we don't prefer to change. You know what change means? having to replace all of our underlying software and procedures. Findining (yes, I KNOW there is) a replacement for things like Office and learning how to use that. Tax Programs? How about connecting through SSLVPN to work? Bootom line is that, I have never really been an "advocate" fior Windows but I don't suggest to LINUX people to convert. Why is having people use your choice that important to you? By the way, Bill Gates has NOT worked at Microsoft in quite awhile.

On to other things: If you had an update and are having software issues using any of your devices (WIFI, Bluetooth, etc.), chances are it has to do with DRIVERS. Same with Blue Screens. In Win 10, my PERSONAL belief is that MS tried to be in charge of your selection of hardware drivers. That is, the software that interfaces your various hardware components to the operating system, programs and you, the user. I know someone will want a link, but recently MS indicated they have an issue with drivers. No, I don't have a link but I read it out there. The issue is that drivers are written and updated by the same company that makes the hardware device. It has to be updated for every build of Windows, tested by the manufacturer, uploaded, then tested by MS. Does money change hands here? I have no idea and won't go there. But, frequently, what you find that MS will update for you when you do Windows Update is NOT the same as what is on the manufacturer's website (support websites -- downloads -- firmware and drivers). The best way I have found to work around this is NOT to use Microsoft-suupplied driver if you can find one on an OEM site. By this, I mean, if your PC is a DELL or an HP or a LENOVO or whatever, you go to their support website and find the drivers for your system. For Dell, as an example, don't just use the model number, use your service tag number to get the exact hardware configuration. If you built the system yourself OR you have changed or added hardware like SSD's or network cards or video adapters, don't try at this point to use the software they gave you but go to THE card/device manufacturer's website (support) and look for drivers for those changed or added devices. make sure you not only specify Win 10, put also if you are using 32 or 64-bit OS selections.

When desktop computers first came out, MOST of the people who bought them were either enthusiasts or people in the computer industry. You want to learn the inner workings? You took a class or did a lot of reading or spoke with experts. But when the World Wide Web came out and became popular, many people ran to stores to buy a computer without any expert or user knowledge. I don't think the world of the computer has completely recovered yet. Ask someone in your family when they last ran CHKDSK in Windows? Or what percent of their HDD/SDD is full? or any regular maintenance item. Today, if you have update issues, not only do you need infinite patience since updates take a lot longer and screens go blank while updates churn in the background but the old rules of not killing an update that is half-in and half-out still apply. So, yes, you will get a lot of people with update issues especially those who say... it's not working, when it really is but is just very slow. Not that the updates or the update process is completely bug free. There are just too many combinations of hardware and software out there to test everything. In the case of notebooks, there is a lot more custom hardware (everything from keyboards to pointing devices to monitors) that is different from others so device drivers become VERY important. It's just the way it is. MS needs to do a better job and work with hardware vendors more closely.

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My Answer
Jan 16, 2020 11:08AM PST

To your second point first, yes, I was aware that this was probably a driver issue. Yes, I knew that manufacturer drivers were better than generic Windows drivers. And yes, I already knew that I had to be agonizingly patient and let Windows have its way with my computer before I ever attempted to see if it was left whole afterward. It wasn’t. In the interest of not making a long story longer, I didn’t go into detail about everything I tried. But I actually DID go to the Lenovo site and enter my latest post update Windows build number in order to get to the driver it said I should have. Since I’ve tried a number of things that have all failed since, I can’t remember the exact wording of the error message I got, but suffice it to say that when I clicked on the presumed correct driver for my build, I got a message to the effect of “It ain’t happening”. I then tried to regress to the earlier Windows driver which had worked flawlessly before the update. Windows didn’t give me any indication that this hadn’t happened, but afterward still no wifi. I have a fair amount of bulldog in me when it comes to computer problems, but I just don’t have enough skin in the game to stay with this as I use Windows for next to nothing.

The Bill Gates comment was just a bit of tongue-in-cheek literary license. Sorry it got past you. Fan-boy? No, just an average guy that used to use Windows that has no need of it anymore thanks to Linux. Insist on people trying Linux? No I’m not insisting on anything. But I DO get a little tired of people whining (YES whining!) here constantly about one Windows malady after another, asking what their options are, and when Linux is reasonably mentioned as an option, certain voices here move to immediately stifle the suggestions. I’ll turn your question back on you – why is it that important to YOU that they not try Linux? The original poster asked for options and while he didn’t specifically mention Linux, he DID mention Mac so he did go off the rails of your "Windows Express".

“I’ve never gone on a ‘Linux site’ and tried to convince people to use Windows”. Really? This is a Windows-only site now? Please show where that is written in the bylaws of the CNET handbook and I will apologize to you profusely and slither away to obscurity. I was under the impression that this was an OPEN forum that encouraged all people to offer their opinions regardless of their operating system “stripes”. I stand to be corrected and will humbly beg your pardon.

At least once a week, and sometimes more often, there is a thread started on CNET that contains the keyword “Windows”. And why do you suppose that is? It’s because Windows causes a fair number of people some amount of pain. Certainly not everyone, but a fair number. You referred to the number of computer users who are blindsided by Windows problems. I will respond by yet again reusing my well-worn analogy about cars and drivers. There are millions and millions of drivers on the road world wide, but only a handful of them know how to actually repair the vehicle they drive. By your suggested logic they.. what.. shouldn’t be allowed to own a car if they can’t repair it? I’m just humbly trying to offer them a more reliable ride.

Do I know what change is? Yes. I changed from Windows to Linux at work, and changed from Mac to Linux at home. Of course it won’t work for everyone and I never inferred that it would. It’s just that for most of the computer “drivers” out there that don’t do much more than internet surf, check email and social media, Linux will suite their needs and much more. My brother is the dumbest smart guy I know. When it comes to computers, he could screw-up a free lunch! Yet, I’ve had him using Linux without drama for about the last 10 years. He doesn’t peak under the hood at all; doesn’t need to. And he has admitted to me that this has been the most stable, trouble free stretch he’s had in all his years of “driving” a computer. I’m only offering that same experience to other “drivers”. Who couldn’t stand to lower their blood pressure?

I hope you didn’t take any offense, I didn’t intend any. I just like a good food-fight every once in a while like everyone else! When this is all over, how about we go out for a beer…?

Post was last edited on January 16, 2020 1:27 PM PST

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Let Me Explain
Jan 17, 2020 9:54AM PST

In this particular context, with the questions posed by the OP, moving to LINUX is a valid response. And, YES, this is a Windows only forum. Look at the title of it: Windows 7. Of course, I didn't mean that as my point. What I meant was, that I've never tried to convince anyone (especially without knowing their needs) to move to a different OS like Windows. But that doesn't matter. LINUX is a valid response here. I realize you get tired of reading about Windows users going on about issues. Windows has become a very complicated piece of software since the early days when it was nothing more than a shell into a command-line OS, MS-DOS.

By the way, I'm not taking offense and, in fact, I wasn't offering any offense either, but I am curious why, it seems that: if anyone has even the slightest issue with windows (a wrong setting, bad driver, whatever) that people suggest LINUX rather than just say, "change this setting". I'd like to know why people do that. It's almost like LINUX users being "missionaries". As I said, I have never told anyone that they should change their OS. Frankly, most of us know that the decision to use one OS over a different one is NOT always arbitrary. For example, IF I wanted (or needed) to work from home (at 3 AM), I had to have a Windows computer, fully patched, with either Norton or Symantec or McAfee current. The SSLVPN software would connect me through Bluecoat and my computer would be interrogated before being allowed to connect. It's a policy thing (worked at the government) rather than technical. Other people have their own reasons. I've tried LINUX. It was OK. I've also tried BeOS when it was out and I have used UNIX (but only a little).

LINUX may be fairly stable, as you pointed out, but at work, for example, I had to use Windows and specific versions to deal with a lot of .NET applications. Also, software without a solid support contract was not allowed and many decisions as to what to use were based on volume contracts. We had over 100,000 desktops spread over 40+ departments.

Anyway, I was just curious as to why "LINUX" gets posed as an answer for everything. I was not implying that it shouldn't be mentioned at all.

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Here's Why
Jan 17, 2020 8:06PM PST

Well, I’m in a good mood and am feeling a little more charitable to Windows and all its minions as I finally got the Lenovo working on wifi again. Now mind you, I wasn’t able to get it to recognize the native, built-in Atheros wireless card that it so brilliantly employed just a couple of weeks ago before the update, but the little micro usb card that I ordered on Amazon for all of 5 bucks and some change worked like a charm. That is, after I loaded the driver from the little mini disc that came with it. (Never had to do that with Linux...Opps, sorry!...I AM trying to be charitable here!) Anyway, all is right with the world and the laptop is safely stashed away In the closet again before it takes another day off my life. Thanks Mr. Gates! Oh, that’s right, you’re not really there…

So as I say, I’m feeling charitable today and I’m here to help you Hforman – the doctor is in! Let’s see if we can answer your question. Why do people suggest Linux?


It might be because so many people write in here and start conversations about Windows with words like: “What do I do?...”What are my options?”...and “HELP!” In your own description you admit that Windows has become a very sophisticated and complex piece of software. Here is one area where you and I are in complete agreement. I always felt there should be two versions of Windows: a professional version with all the bells and whistles, and a Home version that would be more of a “Windows Lite”. Ah, but think of all the computer “experts” it would put out of business!

Nobody, no one here including me, NOBODY is suggesting that all the software you referred to could be run on anything other than Windows. But in those situations there’s always an IT guy to sweep up the glass. By your own suggestion people who don’t know a lot about computers maybe shouldn’t be using Windows for mundane daily home use. So what could they possibly use as a replacement for Windows? It would have to be something that would run on almost any computer made from old netbooks to Intel powered Macs, something stable, something easy to use, something affordable (how about FREE?) something that would extend the life of their equipment, something that would be update-able for five years then could be reloaded with a new version for free for the next five years...Hmmm...what could it be? I can’t think of a thing can you?

For all the people who struggle with Windows problems on an on-going basis, do whatever you want. It really doesn’t matter to me – the sun will still come up tomorrow, I’ll be fine. Just keep doing the same things over and over again expecting different results. That isn’t the definition of anything...or is it?

Post was last edited on January 18, 2020 4:44 AM PST

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Stick with Windows 7.
Apr 26, 2020 8:25PM PDT

Forget all the corporate scare tactics coming from M$, and their legion of mindless parrots. I been listening to the same baloney about XP Pro for the last three years, and still waiting for all them bigtime viruses, rootkits, trojans, etc., to turn my PC into a zombienet! The only problem I have had (other than 3 or 4 PUPs) is the CA nazis and their embedded security certificates store, blockading me from half the internet. This is the sole reason I decided to buy a Win 7 PC. If you start it out right, I'd bet there is no risk. Before my XP Pro touched the internet, I had a wired router up and running with NAT & SPI engaged. First thing I did on the internet was to download firewall, antivirus, Malewarebytes, and Superantispyware. When my Win 7 PC arrives, I will follow the same steps, and suspect Win 7 will be as bulletproof as the XP Pro was. Whenever M$ or their lapdogs say anything, it should be automatically suspect, as this is a megacorp looking to herd you to the next Windows rendition, shake your moneytree, and each version is always guaranteed to be even more privacy-invasive than the previous one. If you are worried still about security, install a DVD burner or CD-ROM on that HP, and use a Linux LiveCD for online banking or shopping. MX Linux is easy to figure out for a Windows user, and plenty secure....running it in LiveCD mode makes it even more so.

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There is no hurry to "upgrade"
May 16, 2020 12:43PM PDT

All my XP-era software still works! Most new software that comes out is still going to support Windows 7, maybe for years to come; and none of your existing software is going to stop working. There is probably no need to upgrade -- period.

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If you want to keep using Win 7...
Jun 18, 2020 4:38PM PDT

you will need to circumvent the M$ forced (or should I say surreptitious?) upgrade to Win 10. First make sure you have backup of Win 7, in case Billie Gates wins the battle. Next, do a Google search using this search term 'windows 7 forced update to windows 10' and familiarize yourself with the problem. You will find the major means employed by 'the enemy' is through their 'kb' updates. You can dig through a lot of Google dross to find which Win 7 updates are naughty, or you can investigate this list:
KB2505438
KB2670838
KB2902907
KB2952664
KB2976978
KB2976987
KB2977759
KB2990214
KB3012973
KB3015249
KB3022345
KB3021917
KB3035583
KB3042058
KB3044374
KB3050265
KB3050267
KB3064683
KB3065987
KB3065988
KB3068707
KB3068708
KB3072318
KB3074677
KB3075249
KB3075851
KB3080149
KB3081437
KB3081454
KB3081954
KB3083324
KB3083325
KB3083710
KB3083711
KB3088195
KB3090045
KB3093983
KB3102810
KB3102812
KB3107998
KB3112343
KB3118401
KB3123862
KB3135445
KB3135449
KB3138612
KB3138615
KB3139929
KB3146449
KB3148198
KB3150513
KB4493132
KB4493132
KB4524752
KB971033
To circumvent 'forced' update of Win 7 to Win 10, the above ones must be blocked or uninstalled. After which, you must obviously turn off 'automatic updates'.
As for "choices", if you have a DVD-ROM or burner, you can run MX-Linux in 'LiveCD' mode, which does not require installation, and has other security benefits. I have used it on my XP Pro PC to do online banking/shopping for a couple years, without incident.