General discussion

Well...this will really help

Obama's #1 agenda item should be gun control

So we still have crazy people but make it more difficult for them to buy weapons. We're making more of them every day but, individually, they can't do as much harm? Nice plan. How about finding out what's happening in people's lives that makes them want to kill. Of course there's always the Chicago method of just levying a tax on bullets. Surely that will bring crazy people to their senses.
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How 'bout we do both?

Find out what is making people so much more prone to violence AND make it harder for them to carry out their fantasies. I will say this again -- there is absolutely no reason, none, for any private citizen to possess automatic, semi-automatic or assault weapons. Period.

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Actually it's our young MEN

who have become more violent between the ages of 16 and 24 for some reason. There doesn't seem to be enough male role models for them anymore in their lives, and when, for the most part, the dominate authority figure in their lives is a woman, I have to wonder how much these young men actually respect them and that authority or the lack of it because now the mother is essentially absent as well due to financial reasons. I hate stereo-typing here, but young women seem to adapt to having both parents gone on a regular basis for whatever reasons and take over 'household chores' such as vacuuming, dishes, making dinner, etc. without much thought to it. What's left for the young men? Mowing the yard, taking out the trash, and maybe shoveling snow? Left with too much time to their own devices and 'busy mind- prevents idle hands' out of the picture for them, I'm afraid is much of the problem. More single mothers need to seek help regarding mentors for male children who can help steer them in acceptable directions.......and because young men will talk easier to older males, perhaps a mentor would spot problems sooner than the mother would.

In the case of this young man, it seems strange to me that both older males in his life left this disturbed man to the sole responsibility of the mother and literally walked out of his life for at least the last two years, all the while knowing he had a 'personality problem', couldn't do well in a regular school enough that the mother home schooled him so he obviously had social skill issues, and also knowing the mother had all those weapons available and within easy reach. I will never understand the mother's thinking it was a good idea to take that kid to a shooting range and teach him how........

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I think you're over-simplifying

My parents divorced when I was very young, and I was raised by my mother. My father was a deadbeat dad before that term was coined. Overall I think I adapted a lot better than my younger sister did. She remains very bitter and angry to this day.

Most serial killers are young, white males, and that's been the case for generations. It precedes video games, the Internet, all the usual things people blame. I have no stats on how many past mass killers came from single-parent homes.

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Those of us who are old enough to remember

will be able to see the big difference in the father figure of those sit-coms of the past versus those of today. The mother figure has also changed dramatically as have the lifestyles of couples. Today's father figure is Homer Simpson and not John Forsythe or Robert Young...if anyone remembers them. We also had a single father (widowed) in a show called "The Rifleman" who was raising his son and teaching him ethics and morals while carrying a "trick" lever action rifle. The shows these men did would probably be laughed at if showed to today's kids who are raised on violent video games and taught about life by puppets.

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(NT) They were laughed at by the kids back then as well.
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we still watch the Rifleman

It's on ME TV here. Comes on every day during the week. Bonanza used to be on there. One favorite lately are the old Remington Steele episodes. My wife lives on ME TV and RTV (retro) before that. We do watch some of the newer shows like Fringe, Person of Interest, NCIS, Castle.

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Maybe what needs to be done is for father's

keep being involved in their children's lives and not abandoning what they conceive of as a defective child (esp. a son). I've seen that over and over.


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the best approach

if the gun control advocates weren't such fanatics, would be to limit possession of semi-automatic and/or "assault" guns to former military who were honorably discharged, considered now as "the militia". The art of incrementalism has become lost to them I guess.

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So you would earn the right to own such by military service?

So right off the bat, you advocate only retired military become swat team members on the police force?

What other things would you have earned and how?

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Or would you go along with Heinlein that only

veterans should be allowed to vote and hold pubic office?

Don't get me wrong, I think we often stiff veterans with not enough aid or help particularly in the health field, physical and mental.

But while willing to give those who serve extra that they've earned by risking their life for our country, I don't concede that being a veteran will automatically make you more stable, capable, or wiser.

Lots of vets have had stress problems that we as a society have not done enough to help them deal with and improve their life.

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high taxes stopped smoking and drinking, didn't it? Or was reduced due to a change in people's hearts toward a healthier lifestyle?

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(NT) Well there is less of it that in the past.
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I don't think health had much to do with it

The higher cost for cigarettes was the most influential thing along with bans on where you are allowed to smoke for the drinking.......more crackdowns on DUI's because of lousy local economies have really been the main deterrent since the fines are pretty hefty now. Like I've said before regarding liberals.......control people's money and you control the people.

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(NT) Are either of these outcomes bad?
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(NT) Apology for poor PC wording. Shouldn't say "crazy" people
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The best suggestion I've heard

Someone said that it would be impossible to get back all the assault weapons out there. But it is possible to simply stop making the bullets for them. They will run out eventually.

I said a long time ago to stop making bullets so you had to make your own. We used to refill shells for our shotgun.


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We're not the only country making bullets

You won't get cooperation from abroad for the sake of US law. You'll also get the same underground trafficking that we see with drugs. I'm sorry to predict that even removing guns and bullets won't stop this type of crime. People to do this don't expect to survive. In fact, I believe it's their way of committing suicide. Those bent on taking out large numbers of people as they make their own exit plan well for the occasion. There are ways to do this that are less cumbersome than trying to sneak in with heavy brass and lead and pick people off one at a time. You're going to see home grown suicide bombers here in the US. You can count on it.

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(NT) My heart weeps
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(NT) Mine too. This has upset me more than I can say.
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Reminds me of a phrase

I've not heard in a long time. "Bleeding Heart Liberals". I wonder why it faded from use?

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RE: You're going to see home grown suicide bombers
You're going to see home grown suicide bombers here in the US.

American ingenuity, you gotta' love it.
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We already have, or don't Abortion Clinics and the

Murraugh Building in Oklahoma City count.

The point of the discussion which you are doggedly resisting, is that things can't continue going in the direction it is going or the US will eventually split into armed camps with high walls around each city. Fine in Italy in the late Middle Ages, not so good in the Modern World.

The rest of us are trying to come to an understanding about what precisely is wrong, and how to change, while you keep throwing status quo, Nothing Can Be Done roadblocks in the way.

What was Dylan's lyric "Either get outta the new road if you can't lend a hand".?


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We're not dealing with the real issue which begins

well before a person comes to the conclusion that life isn't worth it...and then storms out in a rage.

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This is one problem I have with this debate

People on both sides of this issue have been guilty of over-simplification. "Guns are the problem!" "Guns aren't the problem!" The truth is that guns are part of the problem. I absolutely agree that there are other factors. The world has become a much more stressful place, and my personal opinion is that we're being bombarded with too much information all day long. People with bad coping skills are going to be more susceptible to breakdowns under the kinds of pressure we all feel. But -- guns sure make it easy to carry out that rage, don't they.

I support gun ownership. I think there are legitimate reasons for someone to have one. Home protection, hunting (even if I abhor the "sport"), people in high-risk professions, etc. However I can think of no reason on earth why any private citizen should have an arsenal of semi-automatic weapons. The AR-15 (the rifle that was used last Friday) is classified as an assault weapon and was banned until that law was allowed to expire. It's the civilian version of the M-16. One of the handguns this kid had is the civilian version of the sidearm used by SEAL Team members. It's overkill. Literally.

The gun mentality is a big part of the problem too. The NRA raises a lot of money by scaring people into thinking [insert name of non-Republican presidential candidate here] wants to "take your guns away." Wayne LaPierre accuses Obama of that all the time, despite the fact that Obama has never said anything of the kind.

This isn't 1775, but a lot of people have been conditioned to behave as if it still is. THAT has to stop. How, I don't know.

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I can't argue that some dangerous things have no

business being sold to the general public. Certain weapons are one such item. I also can't find a reason for anyone to be able to buy a car that goes 200 mph. I doubt that such a person will never be tempted to abuse its power and I don't want to be anywhere on the road with such a person...or during an road rage incident. At the same time, I realize that everyone has their form of recreation and some of these include handing dangerous items. It's not my form of pleasure but I need to ask myself if I have a right to deny someone else their just because irresponsible acts happen. Living free isn't without hazard and some of these can be severe.

I'm always for seeking to fix the root cause of a problem as a better choice than just treating its ill effects, however. This doesn't mean that some remedial measures can't be part of the plan. I'd not get in the way of an effort to control weapons that have developed a pattern of being regularly abused by the general public. Thus far we've only had random acts by deranged people. Punishing the many for the abuses of the few isn't a policy I take lightly.

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There is a difference.....

.....between a car (however fast it can go) and a semi-automatic rifle. A car's primary purpose is to transport you from one place to another, or perhaps to race. An AR-15's primary purpose is to kill a lot of people quickly. That's what it was designed to do.

That's why I cringe whenever someone tries to use that analogy.

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An AR-15's primary purpose is to kill a lot of people quickl

Is that what it says on the package? Maybe it's purpose is to make a lot of quarter inch holes quickly, in whatever one points it at. Now that would be an appropriate description of it's function.

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RE: Maybe it's purpose is

Maybe it's purpose is to make a lot of quarter inch holes quickly,


Some haven't even got the good sense to move, so they don't get hit with shell casings.

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a proper range

has partitions between shooters. I've even seen attachments that will catch and bag the brass as it exits the gun, at least for handguns, maybe have them for AR-15's too.

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