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We may not have found weapons of M.D but we are finding plenty of other things

Feb 28, 2004 9:49PM PST
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/29/international/middleeast/29FOOD.html?th

Hussein's Regime Skimmed Billions From Aid Program

BAGHDAD, Iraq ? In its final years in power, Saddam Hussein's government systematically extracted billions of dollars in kickbacks from companies doing business with Iraq, funneling most of the illicit funds through a network of foreign bank accounts in violation of United Nations sanctions.

Millions of Iraqis were struggling to survive on rations of food and medicine. Yet the government's hidden slush funds were being fed by suppliers and oil traders from around the world who sometimes lugged suitcases full of cash to ministry offices, said Iraqi officials who supervised the skimming operation.

The officials' accounts were enhanced by a trove of internal Iraqi government documents and financial records provided to The New York Times by members of the Iraqi Governing Council. Among the papers was secret correspondence from Mr. Hussein's top lieutenants setting up a formal mechanism to siphon cash from Iraq's business deals, an arrangement that went unnoticed by United Nations monitors.

Under a United Nations program begun in 1997, Iraq was permitted to sell its oil only to buy food and other relief goods. The kickback order went out from Mr. Hussein's inner circle three years later, when limits on the amount of oil sales were lifted and Iraq's oil revenues reached $10 billion a year.
The rest of the story is on the link
speakeasy speakeasygang

What I find most amazing, that there are people who are members of Speakeasy who speak out in support of that terrible evil man. Sad

Discussion is locked

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Re:We may not have found weapons of M.D but we are finding plenty of other things
Feb 28, 2004 11:17PM PST

and Steve a lot of us cherish the day that evil man is put down like a mad dog, i wish i was the executioner

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The sooner the better I think as well Mark - I wonder if the job of executioner is open to applications :) NT
Feb 29, 2004 12:14AM PST

NT

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One wonders when Kofi & Co. ...
Feb 28, 2004 11:24PM PST

... will open up the UN's books. He is as corrupt as the UN is inept IMO.

Evie Happy

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It came as no surprise to hear that Kofi's phone was being bugged by british intelligence :)
Feb 29, 2004 12:23AM PST

Hi Evie,
It would appear that the U.N stood by watching the Iraqi people starve without questioning where all the funds were going.
I.M.O that is tantamount to criminal negligence.
If ever there was a time that the U.N has shown themselves up as totally useless, and deserving of replacement, then it is now.
Steve

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Re: We may not have found weapons of M.D but we are finding plenty of other things
Feb 29, 2004 6:48AM PST

Hi, Steve.

AFAIK, there is no one in Speakeasy who has spoken out in favor of Saddam. That's a far different matter from asking whether his "sins" were severe enough to justify the loss of well over 500 American lives, nearly 100 of our allies, and probably thousands of Iraquis, to say nothing of alienating many of our traditional allies. The corruption you cite is typical of any number of dictatorships around the world (most notably Aristede of Haiti), but you don't find us invading those countries. of course, they didn't try to assassinate Bush Sr., either...

-- Dave K, Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!

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We could have said the same thing about hitler - I gather you would not have supported action
Feb 29, 2004 7:01AM PST

against Hitler for that same reason.
We lost thousands of lives in World War 2 - Obviously Saddam is only a mini Hitler but he is just as evil.
You have the attitude of a pacifist Dave - I am glad I will never have to rely on your support or lack of it in a war situation. Sad

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Re: We could have said the same thing about hitler - I gather you would not have supported action
Feb 29, 2004 12:51PM PST

Hi, Steve.

Hitler was a clear and imminent threat to the people of the world, starting with his invasion of Poland. When Saddam invaded Kuwait, we properly took action. While both are/were evil, there's simply no real comparison on thee scale of horror and evil -- Hitler was a 10, Saddam's maybe a 3. Papa Doc and Idi Amin were both a lot worse, proportional to the size of the country, but we didn't invade either of them.

-- Dave K, Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!

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Listing failures of the UN ...
Feb 29, 2004 8:59PM PST

... to make your point? Interesting Wink

Evie Happy

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Notice what he's trying to do, Steve...
Feb 29, 2004 10:42PM PST

Steve, notice what he's trying to do. Sadam was not as bad as Hitler, therefore his pronouncement. However, he "rates" Hitler by his cumulative deeds at the end of his rule and compares it to Sadam while he was still in power and still actively killing.
I wonder what "rating" Dave would have given Hitler in his early "This is our last terrotorial demand" days. He's like Chamberlain "bad mouthing" Winston Churchill after the fact of WWII.

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Hi J - Dave's reasoning is quite frightening - How many thousands of people must a leader kill before action gets Dave's seal of approval :) ? NT
Mar 1, 2004 3:33AM PST
Happy
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It's not frightening, Steve....
Mar 1, 2004 3:47AM PST

Steve, it's not frightening, it's an election year here, and he's just playing politics in a particular style.
Note that he does not bring up Japan but Hitler when he refers to WWII, Japan's "Unit 731" (bio warfare, AKA WMD) would come up.

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You have probably got something there J. about the election, but considering how far away
Mar 1, 2004 4:09AM PST

most of us live from his state, I fail to see what he could gain from anything said on here.
On the other hand, Bush's wife uses the internet Happy
I hope we give the President some good tips. Happy

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The point is, Steve...
Mar 1, 2004 4:46AM PST

The point is, Steve, it will be a country-wide election, and the "campaign troops" know that something planted about the internet has a great audience.
An example, if I may: Did you notice the post a short while back implying that Bush had Osama bin Laden and was silently holding him for political reasons? Not only is it spring, and the weather for "hunting" is coming, but the leader of Pakistan is trying to get some "good press" after that nuclear scientist embarrassment. So there is a higher possability that he will be caught. If he is, it would be a "plus" for Bush. So what do the Democratic "political soldiers" do? Hit the net and plant hither and yon that "Republican Plot" charge, in an attempt to turn that "positive" into a "negative" if it happens. A "preemptive strike", if you will.
Just the circus of American politics, and sometimes this circus can be entertaining to watch, even if it's not in your town. Or should I say country in this case?
Steve, if you think that current American politics can sometimes get "slimeball", in the past it was much worse. Some of the late 1800's stuff was especially nasty sometimes. Noteworthy back then was New York's "Boss Tweed". The thing that is interesting about him was that he didn't hold a political office, he was just the "boss" that had the control. Ah, politics, sometimes such an entertaining circus.

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LOL - Hi J. You have got my imagination really going now - election in Sicily
Mar 1, 2004 5:02AM PST

The party line would go like this - Well you can vote for the Godfather, or you can vote for the Godfather. Happy

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Just think, Steve...
Mar 1, 2004 5:16AM PST

Just think, Steve, "voting the graveyard" would be the shoo-in canidate. (grin). Hey, now I have a good idea of the political party of the Godfather (grin#2)

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grin#3 :) NT
Mar 1, 2004 5:36AM PST

NT

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P.S. Re: 'attitude of a pacifist'
Feb 29, 2004 12:58PM PST

Hi, Steve.

BTW, I can't let the above go by. That may in fact once have been true (perhaps as recently as 30 years), but isn't any longer -- I supported the First Iraq War and our actions in Somalia and Bosnia, and would have supported WW2 and Korea, had I been alive or aware then (respectively). But this war was just as illegitimate as our invasions of Panama and Granada under Reagan, another Republican President who shot from the hip.

-- Dave K, Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!

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You supported Bosnia?
Feb 29, 2004 8:00PM PST

Hmmmm....

That was a UN operation huh? Milosevic threatened neighbors? What was the vital US National Security interest there? Dare I ask about some iminent threat?

Haiti ... well that worked out well huh?

Evie Happy

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Who mentioned Haiti?
Feb 29, 2004 9:53PM PST

Hi, Evie.

Actually, our actions in Haiti back when (what was it -- 10 years?) were justified, but we precipitated the current problems by not arranging a funds infusion from the World Bank (which we essentially control) to put the country back on its feet economically. And our recent actions in shipping refugees who risked their life to escape right back into the middle of the slaughterhouse are completely unconscionable.

-- Dave K, Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!

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Kerry mentioned Haiti, Dave...
Feb 29, 2004 11:31PM PST

Dave, Kerry just mentioned Haiti. He said that the current situaton was " empowered by this administration.". Needless to say, the 8 years of Clinton were not mentioned, Kerry would put everything on Bush as his latest attempt to generate an election issue. This one does not appear to have gained much traction yet.
When is Kerry going to come out and say what he will do in current situations if he gets into power? We "get the drift" that he dislikes Bush, what would John Kerry do?

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Hi J, It's easy for Kerry to criticise but not so easy to find a solution - he hopes the electorate will not demand that.
Mar 1, 2004 2:58PM PST

It's unfair that Bush has got Haiti on his plate, while Kerry can stand around sneering at this sensitive time of attempted re-election. Sad

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Bottom line, Steve...
Mar 1, 2004 3:21PM PST

Steve, bottom line is that Bush is Comander in Chief of the U.S. military. O.K., in that role, some "stuff" happened, and he deal with it.
From what I've seen of Kerry's statemnts of what he would do if he were President, he'd still be standiung there frozen in indecision. As the famous WWII saying went, "When in commad, COMMAND. That quote was always in my mind when I wore a uniform. I still like it, when my son asks eventually, I'll recommend that he Nimitz rather than Konkel.

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Sorry J. What is a commad? It's probably me suffering from brain loss :) NT
Mar 1, 2004 3:53PM PST

NT

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Sorry, Steve...
Mar 1, 2004 4:15PM PST

Sorry, Steve. Command, as in give orders. When you have the "bars on your shoulders", it's not time to "shilly-shally" nor try to play political games, it's time to think of the men under you. "Think" does not mean find a way to go home as an aide and leave the men under you "in harm's way", Dave/Josh.

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It was the word commad not command that I was wondering about - thought it was some sort of special nickname for something - it was printed before command - commad,command NT
Mar 2, 2004 7:04AM PST

NT

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As someone who was present in Panama and Granada it is clear...
Mar 1, 2004 3:47AM PST

that again you haven't a clue.

Do your best to locate some of the people (US citizens especially) that were present in Panama and Granada and ask them if we did the right thing. Had you been there you would likely have been screaming at us about "What took you so long! I pay taxes so you will protect me! Blah Blah Blah."

You are not actually a Pacifist, you are a situational pacifist.

Enforcing a cease fire is not "illegitimate" but that is how a Kerry pacifist would tend to look at it.

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Acceptable ratio, Dave...
Feb 29, 2004 7:14AM PST

Dave, are you saying that there is a maximum acceptable ratio of casualties? What to what, Dave? Were Clinton's losses in Somolia acceptable?

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I must have missed something.................
Feb 29, 2004 7:20AM PST

....as I thought the article was about the ineptness, negligence, and/or outright dereliction, on the part of the UN.

Even so Dave, I'm sure you will be pleased to know that some of us continue to be challenged by your unique perspective. However, IMO, the anti-Bush thrust of your comments are profoundly inappropriate, as they are so far Off Topic so as to be irrelevant to the initial and central subject matter of this Thread.

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Re:I must have missed something.................
Feb 29, 2004 9:09AM PST

Del, your quote ....as I thought the article was about the ineptness, negligence, and/or outright dereliction, on the part of the UN. unquote

I thought the article was about the misappropriation of resources and funds. I have no intention whatsoever of justifying anything which SH did (would anyone?), but do have the intention of asking why the UN is castigated so.

Money laundering is hardly a new sport, and backhanders are the name of the game in many countries, so it is hardly surprising that his regime would have got both down to a fine art. Not to mention the number of companies who were apparently prepared to tango, unwittingly or otherwise. Looking around it is also not exactly unusual for aid to be retained by the powerful few rather than distributed as intended.

All such activities only succeed because they are planned sufficiently deviously to deceive those monitoring. When "those monitoring" is a bureaucracy, it inevitably makes that task easier. The last time I checked, the US was one of the almost 200 member states of the UN (albeit with reservations by the US in recent years despite being a founding member and some disgruntlement by other members also), but there is no better replacement chomping at the UN's heels. It might well be that the UN would disintegrate without support from the US, but at the moment it's the best we've got, and the unilateral military might of the US in the event of its demise might not exactly be globally welcomed.

My apols that you were replying to Dave - this post was prompted by your opening sentence.

Regards
Mo

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Re:Re:I must have missed something.................
Feb 29, 2004 9:58AM PST
but do have the intention of asking why the UN is castigated so.

The U.N. did nothing but pass one resolution after another that it didn't even attempt to enforce regarding Saddam. The U.N. was created as a result of Hitler to prevent the world having to live with another like him and when another came along it showed that it was a complete and total failure in dealing with him. In light of it's performance regarding Saddam the U.N. should be restructured.