Watch who you drive with (or, whatever happened to 'reasonable doubt?')

Hi, Evie.

Gun, drugs, it doesn't matter -- without evidence of at least knowledge, there's reasonable doubt.
-- Dave K.
Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!

... is probable cause. Reasonable doubt is for conviction, and before that there is further judicial review in bringing formal charges and making them stand trial for same.

Evie

... me thinks you and I are riding the same wavelength this morning

Evie

Hi, J.

The story says everyone in the car can be charged. That makes a travesty of our judicial system. Detained and investigated -- sure. But there should be no charge without evidence of knowledge, at the very least. This is the "camel's nose" in the tent of reasonable doubt, which is why the ACLU was involved in the case. As for arrest not being conviction, most employment questionnaires ask about arrests, not convictions...
-- Dave K.
Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!

Didn't see that Dave, saw that the arrests were upheld. The burden of proof is still on law enforcement to link the drugs to the appropriate culprit and prove that beyond a reasonable doubt in a court of law.

Evie

Hi, Evie.

You're not allowed to arrest someone without probable cause for their guilt. If that's the basis of the case, the it's still a travesty in terms of close parsing of language -- almost as bad as Clinton's "is" comment.
-- Dave K.
Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!

Hi Dave,

PROBABLE CAUSE

* Facts and circumstance sufficient to convince a person of reasonable caution that an offense has been committed; mere suspicion or belief, unsupported by facts or circumstances, is insufficient. A search warrant may be authorized, or a warrant-less arrest may be made, upon probable cause source

In order to make an arrest, the cops need only reasonable circumstances to prove a crime has been committed and may have been committed by that person. Drugs (or guns, or any law you tend to prefer to uphold more vigorously than drug laws) in a car with several occupants -- even if one claims the drugs are their's -- constitute probable cause.

As someone else pointed out, the unanimous decision should have been a hint that you're a little off base on this one.

Evie

what BS Dave.

You are aware I am sure that since BEFORE you were in college contraband found in COMMUNAL AREAS subjected all involved to arrest and charges--EVEN when one person admitted ownership (at the discretion of the authorities).

As stated by others "probable cause" is grounds for arrest and charges while "reasonable doubt" is only grounds for a finding of not guilty AFTER being tried.

As for "employment questionaires" they are beside the point and have NOTHING to do with law enforcement. You don't like the question you don't answer it--your choice.

>>As for "employment questionaires" they are beside the point and have NOTHING to do with law enforcement. You don't like the question you don't answer it -- your choice.<<
Don't answer it, and you won't get the job. Answer it falsely, and you're liable to be terminated for that. Answer it truthfully, and you usually won't get the job anyway, as in today's hirer's market there are lots of other applicants without a "checkered past." In other words, whatevert you do, you're scr*wed!-- Dave K.
Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!

and if you don't like their questionaire would you really want to be employed by the company anyway?

Are "they" still holding those demonstrations against you?

Even perhaps charges, at least to the point of a probably cause hearing in front of a judge, it can affect employment you already have.

I'm personally aware of companies that policy is that if you miss work due to being in jail (not convicted of a crime, just held) you're suspended pending further investigation. Which can mean until any hearing or trial is over, and even then it's up to the company, not the court. Given that can be a lengthy time with our current morass of court backups etc, it can be devastating.

And I've even been told (but not seen in writing, so there is some doubt) that some will terminate you if miss work because you're in jail.

So while I understand the need for detention and investigation in circumstances, it can have bad consequences at work.

roger

... to be careful the company you keep. I don't think it is reasonable to expect the cops to take into account all the ramifications a person might face re: employment or else they'ld never arrest anyone!

Doesn't it seem reasonable to you that if a cop finds an illegal firearm in a vehicle with two occupants, both might be arrested/detained until the actual owner could be determined? Well, so long as this quantity of drugs is illegal, it's the same thing.

Evie

As I said, I can understand the need for detention and investigation. And I can understand the circumstances can appear bad enough to end up in court.

But it doesn't depend on you riding with the wrong person. If it happened that a 6 foot tall overweight white man with a beard driving a similair vehicle was described by several witnesses at a crime scene and reported headed down the road I drive to work on, I could easily be detained by circumstances.

I'm not saying it would be wrong, I'm just pointing out that the need to be careful, because just holding me 24 hours might get me suspended from work until proven innocent perhaps. And that could take how long? Long enough to default on loans and go bankrupt for many I'm sure.

roger

just that Dave is incorrect in his assumption that "reasonable doubt" has any bearing what so ever in the arrest and charging process.

There are companies who will terminate employees for missing work for medical reasons if the company is not promptly notified--that as well as arrests is between the employee and employer.

"Don't arrest me, I'll lose my job."
"But it looks like one of you three just killed this man."
"But it wasn't me, take my word for it."
"OK. I'll let you other two go also since none of you have said you did it and all have claimed not to have done so. After all, Dave over at Speakeasy says 'reasonable doubt' exists and if its good enough for him..."

... most I've ever filled out ask about convictions, not arrests. Unless you are applying for some job concerning security, etc., it's not going to be a big deal. The arrest shows up on a background check, but if no subsequent charges are filed this isn't likely to effect too many opportunities as the applicant is also given the opportunity to explain the circumstances. Unless someone is stupid enough to hang around with the element that might lead to a string of such arrests which definitely calls their judgment into question!

Evie

Dave hasn't applied for a job for a long, long time Evie.

Most that ask for arrests also have a follow up question that says "If you answered yes to XX explain here."

Hi, Ed.

Of course they do, but as I said above, in a weak economy with multiple appliants for every job, the typical employer reaction is "why take a chance?" A single arrest can thus doom you to the unemployment line.
-- Dave K.
Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!

a single arrest can bar you from consideration period--regardless of job market.

Still has NOTHING to do with arrests for probable cause and convictions for either "preponderance of evidence" or "beyond reasonable doubt" depending on status of crime.

The unanimity was because legally there was no other option except "feel good" and PC legislation from the bench that even Ginsberg and Bryer couldn't stomach.

... while I suppose some have blanket arrest questions, most seem to key in on convictions. Except for, say, applying to be a truck driver, they ask about DUI arrests, applying to work at a day care, they ask about arrests for sexual misconduct, etc.

If I had an arrest for being in a car with drugs that didn't result in formal charges or conviction, and I explained such on a job application and that was the reason I didn't get hired, I wouldn't want to work their either.

Evie