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General discussion

Was use of an airliner as a bomb really inconceivable?

by Dave Konkel [Moderator] Apr 9, 2004 9:16AM PDT
Hijackings offered signal of terror to come.
In Thursday's testimony Condy Rice continued the mantra that no one could have foreseen the 9/11 attacks. That's simply not true -- it was the failure of this earlier plan that reportedly drove Al Qaeda to train its own suicide pilots. You and I certainly can be excused for not conceiving of it -- but what about our "intelligence community," which is sounding more and more like an oxymoron with each passing revelation.

-- Dave K, Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!

Discussion is locked

31 - 60 of 54 Posts
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Re: 20-20 hindsight? -- Easy answer, but the wrong one./not really
by C1ay Apr 12, 2004 10:52AM PDT
One big security loophole that made those hijackings possible was the fact that it was legal to bring boxcutters onboard airplanes prior to 9/11. If the "prohibited items" list had been stricter, it might have prevented them from getting those weapons on board, and I really doubt most people would have complained too loudly about it.

These guys were smart enough to take flying lessons for airliners in preparation for their act. I would think that part of their training to become commercial pilots would be a course in airline security practices. With the instruction behind them I think the boxcutter loophole was one of many they had to choose from. Even a pencil can be quite an effective weapon, imagine what you could do with a knitting needle (still on the permitted list). With a guitar string (permitted) and any of a number of things to use as handles a garrotte could be fashioned easily. Even with the metal detectors they use today you could this knife or this one thru. Then again, if you just rip the toilet seat off and break it in half you'll have a couple of dandy clubs to wield. People complain now that the measures that have been taken post 9/11 have gone to far and as you can see, there are still plenty of loopholes wide open Sad

As for the intelligence services, who knows. Those people are paid to do a job but they're also trained to cover their tracks. I don't think we'll ever know what part our intelligence agencies played in this event.

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You missed the point, and responded to the wrong issue.
by Kiddpeat Apr 12, 2004 2:04AM PDT

Sure the intelligence guys could have come up with a solution. However, a solution was politically unacceptable which was the point being made. You have the benefit of hind sight. Explain just what 'appropriate countermeasures' would be, and how they could be implemented particularly if they were successful and prevented attacks.

You can't just wave your hands, and say that the intelligence people are paid to solve the problem and they should do it. If it were so easy, why didn't Bill Clinton do it? If your logic is correct, the fault lies with Clinton and not with Bush. So condemn Clinton, and you'll be consistent.

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Re:Re: 20-20 hindsight? -- Easy answer, but the wrong one.
by C1ay Apr 12, 2004 2:40AM PDT
We have an "intelligence" community paid big bucks to figure out what the bad guys might do and take appropriate countermeasures.

Would that be the FBI and CIA intelligence community that suffered budget cuts thru the Clinton years or some unnamed intelligence department?

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It follows then that Bill Clinton & Al Gore envisioned it and did nothing
by Kiddpeat Apr 9, 2004 11:55AM PDT

about it! They had eight years to get the intelligence agencies into top shape. You can't lay this one at Bush's door.

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Clinton DID do something about Al Qaeda; unfortunately, he missed...
by Dave Konkel [Moderator] Apr 12, 2004 9:09AM PDT

when he sent cruise missiles against the Afghan camps. The resulting Republican chorus of "wag the dog" did much to ensure that subsequent opprtunities were not taken, because the political cost of missing had become too high. And that's tragic -- just example of how the national rancor, primarily promoted by the Republicans, has damaged the county. BTW, if it's near-treasonous for us to criticise Bush's mishandling of Iraq, why wasn't it the same for y'all to criticze Clinton's efforts to do something about Al Qaeda?

-- Dave K, Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!

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Did you not say, Dave...
by J. Vega Apr 12, 2004 5:42PM PDT

Dave just a short time ago in another thread, didn't you say "I'm sick of you folks using language straight out of Newt's manual to equate liberals and moderates with extremists."?
Now we see you saying " if it's near-treasonous for us to criticise Bush's mishandling of Iraq, why wasn't it the same for y'all to criticze Clinton's efforts to do something about Al Qaeda?". Are you trying to equate "y'all" (conservatives and/or Bush supporters) with treason?

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It's been referenced in literature for years
by Dan McC Apr 9, 2004 12:23PM PDT

Just off the top of my head I can think of two. One in a Stephen King novella.

Dan

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OK .................... well, what was the second time? :-)
by Rosalie Apr 9, 2004 1:01PM PDT

.
Geez, it's like waiting for the second shoe to drop. Shocked

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Re:OK .....well, what was the second time? 'Debt of Honor,' by Tom Clancy.
by Dave Konkel [Moderator] Apr 9, 2004 1:28PM PDT
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I was thinking of this one.
by Dan McC Apr 11, 2004 11:16PM PDT

Title: The Moon Goddess and the Son
Author(s): Donald Kingsbury
ISBN: 0671653814


In this, a small group uses a remotely guided plane to blow up the Kremlin, almost starting WWIII.

Good book.

The Stephen King novella was 'Running Man'. Very different from the movie.

Dan

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Re:I was thinking of this one.
by Roger NC Apr 12, 2004 2:03AM PDT

Plenty of fiction about all sorts of things.

Consider scifi of 3 decades ago and what we have now.

Understand the point, but there is also the point that most disassociated fiction drama/adventure/scifi from reality.

A few times here someone has quoted a fictional work as a good blueprint for how to do something and been roundly critizied for it. Also tv shows. The point being that mostly people want to maintain the difference between entertainment and reality.

Except in politics of course. Wink

RogerNC

click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

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Re:Re:I was thinking of this one.
by Dan McC Apr 12, 2004 2:20AM PDT

I can almost always (way over 75% of the time) distinguish between entertainment and reality. The point is that if they are looking for threat possibilities they should be looking everywhere.

Dan

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Re:Re:Re:I was thinking of this one.
by Roger NC Apr 12, 2004 4:56PM PDT
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Thanks!
by Dan McC Apr 13, 2004 12:30AM PDT

Just a few more tips like that and I'll start approaching 80%!

Dan

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Not "exactly" what happened 9/11...but... in 1996
by JP Bill Apr 9, 2004 1:31PM PDT
http://www.movietome.com/movietome/servlet/MovieMain/movieid-9230/Executive_Decision/

Seeking to free a spiritual leader, Islamic terrorists seize control of a commercial airliner, secretly planning on crashing the airliner into Washington D.C., releasing a special nerve gas with the potential to kill millions of people. Aware of the danger, intelligence agent David Grant, Ph.D., informs top White House officials, who attempt to create a plan of action to retake the airliner in midair using new technology, something never before even considered. Can a commando team, led by Lt. Col. Austin Travis, retake the airliner from the terrorists and spare over 400 innocent lives
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Re:Not one of Seagals best movies if i remember correctly
by jonah jones Apr 9, 2004 8:43PM PDT

didn't he have a "walk on-fall off" part in that movie?

wasn't he in the tube (connecting the two planes) behind Kurt Russel when it when it was ripped off by turbulence?

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Re:Was use of an airliner as a bomb really inconceivable?
by Roger NC Apr 9, 2004 1:14PM PDT

Could it be imagined? probably.

But we, us, Americans were too bloody complacent in our smugness to believe that anything like that could happen, even after the first bombing of the WTC, even after the Cole.

If Clinton had tried to start airport security like now, all the conservatives would have tried to run him out of town on a railroad tie. And the liberals would have been just as outraged at the inconvenience for their little jaunts too.

If Bush had done it and announced to prevent such an attack, the entire country would have scoffed and complained. His opponents would have screamed about restrictions of rights and that he was manufacturing a scare to increase government control of individuals, or some such charge.

And someone somewhere would have labelled it all a conspriacy to hijack the American government and nullify the constitution, etc.

Dave, you would have screamed as loudly as anyone else here if such security as there is now was implemented before there was a disaster to prove it was necessary. We all would have. We didn't believe anyone would dare such here, not really. We all were as bad as teenagers that deep down think they're invulerable, nothing bad can happen to them, only to others.

We watch it happen to other countries by different groups and struggles and while sympathizing were smug no one would dare here but our own few nutty individuals (unibomber, Tim McVeigh, etc).

RogerNC

click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

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Inconceivable ? Absolutely not !
by Del McMullen Apr 9, 2004 2:24PM PDT

Tom Clancy outlined it completely in his book, I think it was titled 'Debt of Honor' way back in the mid-90's. There was absolutely no excuse for 9-11.

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Sorry folks, I should have read the entire thread first [NT]
by Del McMullen Apr 9, 2004 2:26PM PDT

.

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Re:Inconceivable ? Absolutely not !
by Del McMullen Apr 9, 2004 2:30PM PDT

If you agree with that statement, you need help !

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Roger has stated it SO well ...
by Evie Apr 9, 2004 10:50PM PDT

... SO many times it's frustrating that you won't even listen once.

Prior to 9/11 most Americans went to the movies like True Lies and thought to themselves, "no way this could happen in the US". Even the 1993 WTC bombing didn't wake us up to the fact that we were a target for foreign attack on our soil. That I DO blame the previous administration and media for inasmuch as every effort was made to isolate that event and treat it as a law enforcement issue. In 1993 that may well have been the thought processes, but I don't think we as Americans were reminded when the embassy bombings, Cole, etc. took place that these things were connected -- even if not all from some central Al Quaeda command center, they were all by Islamic fundamentalists with the same motives and same goal. Still, we all felt safe and cozy.

Dave you have complained mightily over the smallest of inconveniences after 9/11 -- having to open an account in person, not being able to put the stupid little locks on your luggage, requiring a visa for foreign travelers that transit through the US. I can only imagine your outrage had your life been so traumatically disrupted prior to the 9/11 attack.

Yes, it could be envisioned -- in fiction, in the imagination, and even somewhat similar "what if" terrorist scenarios. But nobody could ever have imagined it ACTUALLY happening ... and the way some are acting now, they think it can't happen again, and if it does it will be the neocons fault Sad

Evie Happy

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What did Kerry know, and when did he know it ?
by Del McMullen Apr 12, 2004 9:24AM PDT
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Why am I not surprised...
by J. Vega Apr 12, 2004 5:53PM PDT

The article said, "Phone calls to Kerry's campaign were not returned.". Why am I not surprised? Ah, well, time for a Kerry supporter to try to steer the discussion to Bush, as is the norm. Can't have Kerry's actions being discussed.

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Re:Why am I not surprised...
by David Evans Apr 12, 2004 6:14PM PDT

And there's more. Lots lots more.

How could any serious AMERICAN party nominate such a loser as John "I'm an internationalist" Kerry? Answer: No real American party could do such a thing. It's a disgrace to that "party" and to this country.

Northeastern Liberal... Mike Dukakis' lieutenant governor... The most leftist of the leftists in the senate... Even more leftist than Ted "Chapaquidic ChooChoo" Kennedy... And there's more. Lots lots more.

DE

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