want to create great picture/surround sound from scratch

Hi there and thanks so much for the detailed response......here's a little more info. Budget is not a problem - the TV I am looking at is around $2,500 and I am currently looking at the KEF KHT 5005.2 at around $2000 - I would consider spending more - say up to $7000 usd to get the perfect set up. We have a rug already and upholstered furniture - more will be added, plus pictures, etc. so the accoustic will improve a little anyway. What do you think of that please? Clare

to get both the rug & the upholstered in place to see the degree of effectiveness those measures rendered. I mentioned I have a couple of neighbors in rather similar looking Southwest style homes, but they have horridly bright acoustics in their great room that make even normal conversation unpleasant.

If that were to be your result, then definitely some professional acoustic treatment would be necessary. A solution is nearly always attainable. It might require some hiding of the acoustic abatement materials which are added. Good results, however are lasting & certainly worth it.

Given what you have discussed, you appear to not have a need for particularly involved receiver. The budget will still have the proper bias of speakers over receiver. An Onkyo 606 (or 605) or the rough equivalent in Denon will assure you. (That is - no need to spend more than $400-$700 on any power source (typically receiver.)

Best of fortune for long lasting audio achievement.

PLEASE TAKE YOUR TIME. LEARN AS MUCH AS YOU CAN.

I recommend AVS forums at the risk of brain overload, and audioholics as well. I keep good track of this forum, so you can ask here for my personal advice. I do have about a thousand posts at the aforementioned sites.

Let's begin with the basics. If this is 100% HT, here is the order of your concerns:

- display, display, display
- room acoustics (and possibly light control as well)
- speakers that can crank
- subs that can crank
- amp that can crank
- sources and processors

Let's discuss the LAYOUT. Way more important than most people ever realize. For instance, to get an idea what I am talking about please read my very first response/post in this thread where I am currently helping a noobie. You will pick up some main points that I always emphasize, being size of display as well as listener positioning, with pros/cons of audio quality.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1061810

$7,000 can get you an extraordinary setup. Like you can't believe. See this amazing garage conversion. You want your speakers upright and identical. None of this horizontal MTM crap. Same plane is a bonus.
http://www.smxscreen.com/images/IMG_5261-1.jpg

If you read my thread titled Meat's dream setup here, I am somewhat implying the installation of your components NOT in the front. Less direct/ambient light for not only better visual performance, but better movie immersion, and IMO the biggest benefit being AUDIO. With three upright speakers. No lobing, best off-axis for multiple viewers, in fact less issues with bare ceiling reflection points arguably, because horizontal centers that are MTM dispers Up an Down, not left to right. Guess what, they cost more too usually.

See, just thinking about layout puts you way ahead in the game. Rack $200, URC radio freq universal remote, $75, all cabling needs combined $100.

At 2.5k budget for display, go with a projector. For only very little more, look at Epson 1080 UB or the Panasonic AE2000. I got a JVC RS-1 for 3k, but I was extraordinarily lucky. Sale sold out in one day. But... you never know. OH, Please wait for CEDIA to pass before buying one. All the superceded models will drop in price. Bookmark AVS digital hi end PJ forum for crazy sales like the one I scored on.

*If you want a lot daytime viewing, or are afraid of mounting bulb costs, I say place a cheap and small flat panel behind the screen. Something like $600-800. Who cares if you're not getting top PQ with your local news. Most tv broadcasting is pretty crappy compared to Bluray or HD-dvd anyways.

Screen: the best would be AT (acoustically transparent), but firstly its quite expensive, and secondly if you go really big, you might not get enough brightness. Those on a budget like myself don't buy expensive high light output PJs, and use high gain screens to compensate. My custom ordered 159" has glass beads emulsified in it to give a gain of 2.8x. Less than 1k shipped. If not custom black or with CSR, Im thinking $800ish perhaps. Quite affordable for the size.

Speakers are by far the most important thing for audio. Spend where electrical energy is converted to mechanical energy. For HT, capable (subs) are a must IMO. Some people believe in a rule in spending as much on this as the front three speakers combined. A lot of ID brands I recommend are high value, but ported beasts are QUITE large. Good performing sealed and servo controlled units are a lot more expensive, unfortunately. I use the latter.

Please think about room treatments. I just ordered 5 panels from GIK, to add to the 10 Real Traps I scored on the classifieds. I will in fact be ordering even more for ceiling reflection points.

I will have spent more on treatments than my 7 HT speakers combined. This figure also happens to be more than my receiver/pre (55 lbs) feeding a 70lb amp, combined. Acoustics will make or break any speakers chances.

If looks are a primary concern, here are some stealth or aesthetical possibilites:

http://www.realtraps.com/p_planter.htm

http://www.gikacoustics.com/gik_elite_table.html

http://www.soundprooffoam.com/soft-sound-carrara.html

http://www.thomas-labusga.com/

Ok I reread your post. Acoustics should be your #1 priority right now.

I'll stop for now. Feel free to ask anything more specific. In the meantime . . . please answer the following questions:

- what are the dimensions of your room? its open? include height.
- how far will you sit from the display? does that imply that there is any space behind you?
- would you be willing to move seating forward or backward?

Good luck.

ps Bonus link for you, dedicated HT for only $2,300 including projector, furniture, carpet, everything. Now the performance won't be on the same level as other systems, but its amazing what some can do on a tiny budget in a tiny room.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=896437

Guys, you are great.....I do want to get it right and will take time to do so, we are in the Dominican Republic so I have to ship stuff in anyway - nothing happens fast here! I am going to do a drawing (probably badly) and photograph the room and then it would be great if you could tell me what you would buy with my budget given the same set up. A question about projectors - someone has one in the condos already and we see it at night from outside; the clarity is amazing - but what about the day time or viewed from different angles? How does a projector work anyway - what projects the image and how? (see I know nothing at all!) Looks are important to me as well - I am going minimalistic by preference - no fuss. Going to draw and photograph now. thanks again

well i drew the drawing and shot the pictures, but i have no idea how to get them visible to you guys; room dimensions 9m by 9m out of which 4m x 4m is an open plan kitchen, where I normally cook, listen/watch. Ceilings are vaulted to a height of 7m. TV currently sits on a stand on a clear wall and moveable sofas are currently around 10 to 15 feet from the tv. There is plenty of space for organising furniture and with some major works about to be done in my apartment, we can wire anything we need in the way of speaker placement. Apartment is relatively new construction (1 year) but this room is kind of loft-like. We do not watch much TV, but love to sit and watch good movies or have a wii challenge night with my kids. I so appreciate your help......

9m = 29.5 ft. 38% of 29.5 = 11.21 from back wall, or 18.3 from front wall. This is your starting position for ideal audio. Variances between different rooms might have barely forward or back of that.

If 18.3 ft from front wall is indeed ideal (as many persons DO place themselves at 38%, then to get the display at THX recommended viewing angle of 36 degrees, you need a 164" screen. To get the SMPTE recommended angle of 30 degrees, you need a 135" screen.

The best thing to do is get the PJ before the screen, and throw the pic on the blank wall. Play with it for at least a week before deciding on screen size. Personal taste is paramount. That being said, I believe heartily in bigger is better. I use 42 degrees, and people with anamorphic setups are using well over 50 degrees.

If your room is indeed square, 9 x 9m, that is indeed unfortunate. Square is the worst possible for acoustics. The only way it could be worse for you is your ceiling was also 9m high rather than 7.

If you see someone else with a PJ, and you can see the pic, they are not doing their best to reduce ambient light. Unless you can truly control the lighting, AND you want the best PQ during the day . . . I recommend a different or additional display. You can control lighting with blinds that can really black it out, even with thick and/or dark curtains to go over those. Darker is better for the walls. But since this sounds like its your living room, Im sure you don't want to paint all the walls black. But . .. . a dark red is still better than white, for example. There are those who leave it all white, but this is not recommended for best video performance.

The PJ uses different technologies. They use the same ones as Rear Projection units, whether DLP single chip or 3 chip, LCOS (such as SXRD or DILA), and 3LCD panels. There is the optical block, which I don't how it works, the lens which is not cheap, and video processing stuff. I really know very little. You will have either manual or electric zoom and shift. When you pick your PJ, you ideally want to set shift and zoom in the sweet spot. PJs can lose brightness at either extreme of their shift.

For wide viewing angle, it depends on the screen chosen, not the PJ. The one I use has the single greatest fault of maintaing higher gain within a 20 degree cone. Yet, I am still providing a magnificent picture to 8 viewers. It basically comes down to dimensions and angles. Other types of screens will allow very wide angle. Just without the gain.

I would not necessarily recommend a PJ to everyone. But once the budget hits over 2.5k, then why the heck not. PJs have become amazing at this price point. The PQ is not even in the same category as the local theaters, but by far and away much superior in the opinions of all.

Given that you have at least decent light control. Or mostly night viewing. With everything turned off, and blinds closed, you shouldnt be able to see your hand in front of your face.

So, the projector receives a signal how? We are in the DR and do not have HDTV, simple cable is available to us and not great quality either for that matter. I guess that the projector has to sit in the centre of the room? or, can it be mounted right at the rear of the viewing area? I need help with the simplest of things.....for example, how does my cable box connect to the projector? how do movies play through it? We were also considering the Apple (info here; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nL3hrD8WjY) because we download most of our movies..... Is that system compatible with a projector? Hope you can be a little more patient with me yet......

but they all have got HDMI and component connectivity. Considering your budget, I would get a receiver that can transcode/convert component to HDMI. Then you only one cable to the PJ.

Placement of PJ depends on the screen use, as well as the PJ itself. At the very rear of the room, the pic can only be small. If the PJ was up front, it can only be so big. That's what I meant by a sweet spot shift . . . however, the throw you will use will very likely be in that spot, if you ceiling mount. At the very rear of the room, that's pushing it for many PJs at this price point, and again, the pic is probably going to be too big.

Use these resources to learn about any particular PJ.
http://www.projectorcentral.com/
http://www.projectorpeople.com/

I would consider having good video processing in the receiver. Nothing less than Reon/Realta if you do. The Onkyo 875 is being had for about 1k last I checked. I don't need it, but you might benefit a lot with the crappy signals you are getting. That being said, don't expect miracles.

If using a High Power screen like I do, you will want the projector close to eye level as possible. The screen is called retro reflective. Many use the more common angular reflective. This one gives you easier placement, wider viewing area .. ... BUT... less brightness. Here is a review of retro reflective:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=773065

DR, eh? A lot of my favorite ball players are from there.

that I would definitely consider getting TWO displays. One very nice PJ setup, and a cheapo entry level, small flat panel.

The Onkyo 905 has dual HDMI outputs, to make connectivity easier. Or buy a switcher instead for less money. The Integra 9.8 pre/pro also has dual HDMI outputs, but costs 1.6k, and you are still missing the amp.