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General discussion

Video Editing on the Mac

Mar 8, 2007 10:21AM PST

In deciding to get a macbook pro, I will be making my own switch from pc to mac. I wanted to here from those video editors out there to hear if this is the best choice. All my film friends use mac and final cut, so it only seems natural. But I want to hear from those with some real experience, are you happier with what mac's have to offer? And is there anything I should know in making the transition?

Also, I'll be needing to convert some vhs footage to digital of course and need a recommendation of what external contraption would do this best with a macbook pro? Currently, I'm eye-balling the Canopus advc 100

Discussion is locked

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Easy enough...
Mar 8, 2007 11:05AM PST

I use a G5 flatpanel iMac. I connect a Sony HDR-HC1 1080i hi-definition camcorder with a FireWire cable.

I have been shooting vidoe for over 10 years. From RCA full sized VHS to Elura 60 to my Sony. The VHS machine connected connected using a Hollywood Dazzle (bought out by Pinnacle Systems. I understand Canopus has good analog/digital bridges, too. The FireWire connection to 'puter is much better than USB. That twinpact100 does look very interesting - I have not used it. I like the 300 as well.

Back to today... I've been shooting and editing hidef video for over a year. iMovie is bundled with the Mac and that, along with GarageBand and iDVD... and iPhoto... will blow you away... especially when you realize it was bundled... i.e., FREE. Then, when you get to FinalCut Studio, FinalCut Pro, LiveType, Motion, SoundTrackPro and DVD Studio Pro will floor you.

As with any Operating System or major application transition, there will be a learning curve. FinalCut's is pretty steep. But the effort is well worth it.

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Or you could get Final Cut Express
Mar 8, 2007 4:13PM PST

There was this offer, which I am not sure is still there, where you could get Final Cut Express for only $99 with the purchase of a new Mac.

Final Cut Express actually costs $299 so thats quite a nice price.

Final Cut Express is the lower end version of Final Cut Pro. It can do almost all the work that Final Cut Pro does, I have heard.

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that's my plan
Mar 9, 2007 11:44AM PST

I decided I'm going to get the macbook pro near the end of the final cut express deal (March 27), at least then I best my chances of getting as near to the release date of leopard as possible, I've heard late spring, but I don't know when late spring is to Apple.

My current concern is finding an external converter for a stack of vhs tapes I want to edit once I get my laptop. I saw dazzle but heard that firewire is better so am leaning towards advc 110/100 or the ads pyro a/v link, I think both are compatible with mac and pc, but I'd have to double check for ads.

Does anyone have other suggestions for a converter that is mac friendly? Also, are there any other programs that I should acquire for my video editing endeavors, I'm new to the realm of Mac.

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The Canopus ADVC family looks good
Mar 9, 2007 11:52AM PST

FireWire is better for video transfer (miniDV). It does not matter if it is a Mac or Windows machine.

As far as any other programs you should acquire - that depends on what you want to do. If it is simple stuff, the bundled iLife suite (iMovie, GarageBand, iPhoto, iDVD) may be enough. If you want more complex, FinalCut Express may do it - or pro-level FinalCut Suite can provide high-end editing and output...other tools like flip4mac (free download) or who knows what you will bump into when you need them.

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Digitizing old footage, Premiere Pro, Final Cut
Mar 16, 2007 10:57AM PDT

Some thoughts....
I had a ton of old tapes as well that needed to be digitized for editing. I had a high-end PCI digitizing card in a Mac desktop. This is the "best" way, and If you have an old Windows machine you may want to get an inexpensive PCI digitizing card and just use it to dump all your footage to hard drive. You can then use the drives with your new Mac. HOWEVER.... after trying that "professional" approach I then just got a mini-DV camcorder with analog inputs and hooked it up to my analog source deck and made copies of the old footage directly onto DV tapes. I saw no discernable quality difference between that approach and using the PCI card - the codec in the camera was surprisingly good. In fact, in order to get the same quality out of the PCI card I had to run about twice the data rate! You can then just work from the new DV tapes.

Final Cut Express is for practical purposes the same as Pro. The differences have to do with dealing with different codecs (source materials on media that is not mini-dv) and having options for things like working with film footage.

Everyone says Final Cut has a steep learning curve. I have used it since version 1.0, produced hundreds of shows with it, even won two Emmies. I teach it in classes for university and for corporations. After all these years I still really don't like it. File management is terrible (the browser is the worst in the business) the interface is complex to the point of ridiculous (the various iterations of when and how to push the 'option' key for various functions is just weird). The workflow model is very inefficient - you have to click all over the place, and the automated functions really force you to treat it like a linear editor. When I have a complex edit with a half dozen video tracks and a dozen audio tracks all over-lapping trying to manipulate the clips is a nightmare. All the big things you don't want automated are and all the little things you do need automated aren't.

Now before I get skewered again by the Mac faithful (I've written several negative reviews of the product) who can be real jerks, realize I've been a Mac fanatic since 1984.

I now dual boot and use Adobe Premiere Pro. No one seems to say it has a steep learning curve, and it is, I think, as capable or more capable than FCP. Much easier to use, better capture window, much better browser, history window, smoother workflow... better in every way. And sorry Mac folks, it has been every bit as stable. I HATE using XP, so I have to decide if the superior software is worth the inferior operating system. It is for me. So I use both, but much prefer Premiere.

And please don't come after me until you've spent at leat 100 hours on each program. Don't knock it until you've really tried it.

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your comments on FCP vs Preiere are very interesting.
Mar 16, 2007 12:23PM PDT

Thank you. And congrats on the Emmies!

To the original poster on the analog conversion - not all digital camcorders have the input function referrd to in the post - check the feature list before buying if this is someting you need to do.

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Thank you for your insight.
Mar 16, 2007 1:41PM PDT

I know that some mini dv cameras might allow you to hook them up from a video/audio source and connect them to a computer in a passive mode that converts the video, I'll have to see if my Canon Zr10 model does this.

Also, thank you very much for telling me about FCP and Premiere Pro. I pulled this from wikipedia, "On January 4th, 2007, Adobe announced intentions to release Premiere Pro for Mac OS." I definitely want to feel comfortable with the mac setting so I will at least try out Final Cut Express for the current project I'm working on. By the time I can afford a more professional program, hopefully Premiere Pro will be an option for the mac.

I was also wondering if you have had experiences with Vegas? I have heard good things (even though it is PC, and probably won't switch any time soon). I would like to hear more critiques of different NLE programs. Do most people consider Premiere Pro to be the best?

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Canon ZR-10
Mar 16, 2007 4:47PM PDT

It's been a while since I have used a Canon ZR series camera, but they do indeed allow pass-through.

You may have to delve into the menus to do this, somewhere there is an "AV to DV" option (words to that effect anyway), even if it doesn't do it right off the bat.

If I recall, you may need to eject any tape from the camera, or it will go into stand-by (sleep) mode about 5 minutes into the process. This is to protect the tape and record/playback head since the head is constantly spinning, wearing both out.

Your manual should explain the procedure, but if I recall, it isn't really clear on this.

(My previous post was interrupted for a while, which is why it sort of leap-frogged this question.)

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Best of both worlds
Mar 16, 2007 4:33PM PDT

Adobe Premiere Pro is just about to be released for the Intel Macs, so you don't need to keep that old PC just for that.

Having said that, this is just like the QuarkXPress vs. Adobe's InDesign battle in desktop publishing. Some people prefer one, some prefer the other, but at least both are available, just as now both Final Cut Pro and Premiere Pro will be going head to head on Macs.

In fact, this should help improve Final Cut even more.

As far as the other point about converting old analog tapes to digital, although not all DV camcorders have analog inputs, many that do, though not all, also allow "pass-through" importing, so you can either copy the old tape to DV for archiving, or just import to the computer for editing, saving tape and time (copying to DV tape, and then from the DV tape to the computer) if you don't want to keep a DV tape copy of all the original footage.

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Does Pass-through wear down the camera?
Mar 17, 2007 11:59AM PDT

My camcorder is pretty old, yet hardly used, so I'm concerned at how long it will last if I convert several dozen vhs using it. I want to skip on putting the footage on mini-dv and straight to edit. I plan on archiving the footage once it is digitized onto dvd's. Is there a dvd or format you would recommend for archiving video?

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Not so you'd notice, with one exception.
Mar 17, 2007 3:05PM PDT

Grab a coffee or other beverage, this is a long one. Happy

In addition to years of video production, for a time I used to run a lab with over 40 MiniDV camcorders, mostly various versions of the Canon ZR series.

Normal wear and tear on camcorders should only be to the moving parts. Those would, of course, include all the bits that move and guide the tape back and forth within the body of the camera, but also the eject mechanism and zoom and focus mechanisms.

What we found to be the major break-down, though, was the FireWire connector itself.

Although it shouldn't be a problem, and doesn't seem to be on the Sony cameras we used, several of the Canon camcorders came up with non-working FireWire connectors. It turns out that you shouldn't connect and disconnect it when the camera is powered up. Also, since it is soldered to the main board inside the camera, try to not wiggle the cord when attaching or removing it, as well as try to make sure it doesn't get pulled to a side, or bumped once connected. The repairs would have been almost as much as a new camera, so we used those only for shooting and playing back to a monitor or copying to or from VHS with the analog audio and video cable.

Of course, those cameras were used and abused by many students, at least some of whom were not too concerned about taking care of equipment they didn't own. Sad

Once connected and (then) turned on, the camera would have only the same wear as your stereo system or LCD TV or monitor. All electronics will age and break down over time, but not so you'd notice, except for possibly contact corrosion with switches and push buttons or rotary dials for volume, selecting modes or menu options, such as the on/off switch, as well as the electric zoom control and on some models, manual zoom and focus as well.

To make a long story short, converting VHS tapes won't harm it any more than just having it turned on.

What format to store the footage depends on what you intend to do with it. If it is just going to be viewed, DVDs will work. If you intend to use it for editing, it is not recommended due to the quality loss during compression to MPEG-2, which is the DVD format. Some people just archive original tapes, in this case MiniDV copies, but with hard drives getting quite inexpensive, many now just save them to external drives.

I would suggest one for the video anyway, as it takes up quite a bit of room on your hard drive, and in any case, it is more efficient to have the operating system and editing software on a different drive than the data. A second drive for back-up would be ideal, as well as a UPS system for protection against power outages or even brown-outs, which can corrupt a hard drive. I had one fry with a power outage (even though I had a surge protector), before I bought a UPS with enough protected AC outlets to include the two external drives I had at the time. (I have three now.)

I would recommend a FireWire hard drive. Most if not all have two FireWire 400 connectors, so you can plug the hard drive into the computer, and the camera into the drive directly. Although USB2 is rated at 480 Mb/s compared 400 Mb/s for FireWire, the FireWire drive will be considerably faster at continuous throughput such as video, whereas with the USB drive, there is the risk of dropped video frames, making the video stutter on playback. I won't go into the reasons here, but here is a link that explains why USB is slower than it's advertised:
http://www.cwol.com/firewire/firewire-vs-usb.htm

If you do want to store video tape, VHS or digital, it will have only a limited shelf life, so you need to store them in a cool place, low humidity, stored after running it fast forward. Rewind and fast forward them again annually, and store the cassettes on edge, not flat. Storing them flat puts the weight of the tape pack on one side, possibly causing edge damage and then the tape may not track properly in the camera or VCR. Wider tape is at more risk of this, having more weight, but why risk it with narrower tapes?

Periodically, 5 to 10 years maximum, you should copy tapes or risk damage due to physical breakdown of the magnetic layer or the glue that holds it to the tape backing. This allows them to be copied to new, more modern formats if they become available in the meantime, as well, which protects you from having tapes for which you can't find working players. Hard drives also have life spans, but usually you can tell when they near their end of life, but for longterm security, these should also be copied to new drives after 5 years or so.

I hope you didn't get too confused with all of the above, but I wanted to give you all the information you may need to make your decisions.

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A very helpful post
Mar 18, 2007 2:01AM PDT

I haven't been an active participant in this thread until now, just lurking. But I want to thank you for your thoughtful, thorough and informative post.

Best Regards,
Jamie

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You're welcome!
Mar 18, 2007 4:18AM PDT

That's the beauty of these forums.

One person has a question, and many more can learn from the answers.

Keep in mind though, that not every answer is correct, as sometimes it seems to be a case of the blind leading the blind.

Usually wrong answers are an honest attempt to help, but there are three types of replies to look out for.

1. Some unknowingly propagate their own lack of knowledge

2. Sometimes it is just a matter of preference as in which equipment or software is better, but put in a way that makes it seem to be the answer for everyone.

3. A bad experience can turn someone against a product even after it has been greatly improved. This can happen to software that was compared when it was new to an established product, and then later surpassed it, but by then the first impression has taken root, as well as someone who is comfortable with a product, for example Windows, and then tries something different, either Linux or Macintosh, but doesn't give himself enough time to figure out the differences and advantages.

Unfortunately, claiming experience isn't alway proof that the person knows the answer. In response to a question if a more expensive webcam was worth it because it had dual microphones, someone claiming to be an audio engineer answered to get the cheaper unit, as he couldn't imagine how the dual microphone could be useful. The simple answer is that the first microphone is aimed at the person talking, and the second microphone to the side or back to pick up ambient room noise. Using very simple circuitry, this signal is subtracted from the main microphone, taking away the room noise and giving a much clearer sound. This is the basis of noise cancelling microphones, which an audio engineer should have known. The assumption may have been that it was a stereo microphone, probably unnecessary in a webcam, but then it would have said stereo and not dual in the description.

By the same token, I don't mind people questioning my answers, and I'm always glad to clarify or get into more detail if asked, and of course, once in a while, I don't mind admitting that I have had to alter my answer due to replying too "off the top of my head", or if a new development escaped my attention.