Speakeasy forum

General discussion

Veterans cannot/will not forget or forgive

There are over 8 million military veterans living in the United States today, and most of them consider Hanoi John a "traitor", and his activity in the early '70s dishonorable.

He didn't keep faith with the 3 million plus service personnel who were deployed to South East Asia during the Vietnam War.

He belittled the deaths of over 47,000 Americans, and another 150,000 plus wounded in Vietnam.

You've heard of waving a "red flag" in front of a bull, well the same reaction when
this red flag is waved in front of a military veteran.

Discussion is locked
You are posting a reply to: Veterans cannot/will not forget or forgive
The posting of advertisements, profanity, or personal attacks is prohibited. Please refer to our CNET Forums policies for details. All submitted content is subject to our Terms of Use.
Track this discussion and email me when there are updates

If you're asking for technical help, please be sure to include all your system info, including operating system, model number, and any other specifics related to the problem. Also please exercise your best judgment when posting in the forums--revealing personal information such as your e-mail address, telephone number, and address is not recommended.

You are reporting the following post: Veterans cannot/will not forget or forgive
This post has been flagged and will be reviewed by our staff. Thank you for helping us maintain CNET's great community.
Sorry, there was a problem flagging this post. Please try again now or at a later time.
If you believe this post is offensive or violates the CNET Forums' Usage policies, you can report it below (this will not automatically remove the post). Once reported, our moderators will be notified and the post will be reviewed.
Collapse -
(NT) (NT) He is such a handsome, happy guy.

In reply to: Veterans cannot/will not forget or forgive

Collapse -
Tell us why GW Bush should be reelected.

In reply to: Veterans cannot/will not forget or forgive

Collapse -
i rather realect a known than a traitor

In reply to: Tell us why GW Bush should be reelected.

kerry is a what and thats a big question bush isnt perfect, but kerry nam record says it all well i for 1 wont elect kerry

Collapse -
Re: Veterans cannot/will not forget or forgive

In reply to: Veterans cannot/will not forget or forgive

And that's the real problem, Del. Many veterans are unwilling to face up to the notion that they may have been fighting in an immoral war. If they did so honorably and without realizing that fact, btw, doing so was an honorable and moral action. But many vets are simply unwilling to accept that they wasted years of their life, and often more, in supporting an immoral war. And unfortunately, many of them feel so strongly that they're willing to lie to attack one who was willing to call that disgraceful war precisely what it was. It's not just a matter of Kerry -- those few members or the VVAW who tried to join were not welcomed by the old-line veteran organizations like the VFW and the American Legion. Patriotism and supporting your country in immoral actions are NOT the same thing -- but most on the right of the political spectrum equate them.

-- Dave K, Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!

Collapse -
Ah, the SDS line still lives...

In reply to: Re: Veterans cannot/will not forget or forgive

Ah, Dave, the old "blame the vererans" line again- just like the SDS days. (Students for a Democratic Society, for others not familiar with that group.)
Sorry, Dave, that attempt at suppression by discrediting will not work anymore. It's now time for us to have our say and we will do so. It's just starting, Dave, Kerry has much more to answer for. References to Newt, Bush, Polk, etc. or other attempts to change the subject from Kerry won't suffice, Dave, they will be asked again until Kerry releases ALL of his information and puts ALL of his cards on the table. It's time for Kerry to stop hiding information and face up to his actions. Kerry himself, not a collection of Democratic party political campaign hacks.

Collapse -
Re: Ah, the SDS line still lives...

In reply to: Ah, the SDS line still lives...

Hi, J.

Read it again -- my views have changed drastically since the 60's and 70's, in that I now consider the postion of hawks who fought to be consistent and honorable (unlike that of folks like Bush, Rovem Quayle, and Cheney, ever-ready to fight to the last drop of someone else's blood). But most the pro-war vets have not changed their attiotudes -- they still consider following your conscience to protest an immoral war to be an act of treason, one that (they believe) justifies their lying to harm the political career one who both fought honorably AND protested the war. There aren't many such, which is what made Kerry's opposition so forceful with moderates -- and that's what the hawks have never forgiven him for.

-- Dave K, Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!

Collapse -
Re: Ah, the SDS line still lives...

In reply to: Re: Ah, the SDS line still lives...

one who both fought honorably

But that's in debate isn't it? you can't argue that either side is 100% wrong just because you prefer one to the other. You may decide which you believe is more right. But there are too many against Kerry to believe they're all knowing 100% lying out of spite.

protested the war

The problem I have isn't with the protests perse, but with the evidence presented after his Congressional testimony that he and his associates deliberately lied about having first hand knowledge of atrocities in Vietnam. Is such evidence incontroverible? shrug, probably not, but from what I've seen, it's certainly enough to raise questions.

And as his military service is what he preaches makes him best qualified, it's up to him to disprove the accusations isn't it?

RogerNC

click here to email semods4@yahoo.com
Collapse -
Re: Ah, the SDS line still lives...

In reply to: Re: Ah, the SDS line still lives...

Hi, Roger.

You're buying the GOP line when you say Kerry claims that his service makes him best-qualified. His service makes him better qualified than a bunch of folks who went out of their way to avoid service, true -- but that's a minor issue in the campaign that's become the focus thanks to the Swifties' lies and ads.

-- Dave K, Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!

Collapse -
Re: Ah, the SDS line still lives...

In reply to: Re: Ah, the SDS line still lives...

You're denying Kerry's campaign put forth his medals and Vietnam service to show him better qualified for commander in chief than Bush?

You're saying they didn't emphasize his "war record" in comparisons to Bush's reserve service first?

BS Dave. They started the comparisons figuring they could fly his medals against reserve service and portray Bush as an almost draft dodger, just as you've insinuated over and over Bush was.

but that's a minor issue in the campaign that's become the focus thanks to the Swifties' lies and ads.


BS again, he's the one talking about his service under fire. So it's fair game. He wanted to brag on his medals, so anyone that questions them has the right to do so.

Sorry Dave, I'd have given little importance to his Vietnam protest or service, if he and his campaign hadn't pushed it out front.

And you're going to insist that everything from his opposition is lies and they're all liars and everything he claims is gospel? even though those claiming to be there and disputing him outnumber those claiming to be there and supporting him? Who's buying a party line?

I seriously doubt that all the accusations of the Swiftboat veterans against Kerry are 100% accurate. IF nothing else, time would have colored many things in memories. But I can't believe even you would claim they were all liars and every statement made in support of his (changing continuously) version is gospel straight from saints.

One side has just as much reason to lie as the other at least. Heck, the Swiftboat veterans against Kerry aren't running for office, so how is their motive for lying greater?

Sorry Dave, it wouldn't become the focus instead of a minor issue if his campaign hadn't tried to trade on the miltary uniform he wore.

Hell I can't even think of one thing before he choose Edwards as his vice president that he ran as being better than Bush for the job than because he had been in combat. Everthing else was just promises he'd be less resolute and beg every other countries ok before he made a decision as President.

Now considering other countries feelings and responses is appropriate. But why does he campaign to other countries leaders and citizens? Why do they, including those oppose to the US in every way all around the world, apparently prefer him?

Sorry Dave, I know you and those of the ABB persuation will say I'm just mindwashed by the GOP and can't consider an alternative. If you and the democratic party had offered a real alternative to politics of extremes as usual lately, it might have been an easy election.

But the Democratic party, and others of liberal bent, seemed to have chosen the most opposite they could. And the most opposite of the extreme right. Kerry is for certain more left than Bush is right.

Is it impossible that anything could make me vote for Kerry? no, but right now I'd bet as much as I've ever bet in my life on anything.

RogerNC

click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

Collapse -
It is interesting how quickly and easily you begin to call

In reply to: Re: Ah, the SDS line still lives...

those who disagree with you liars. Now, the vets who do so are liars.

It's getting easier and easier to throw that term around isn't it?

Collapse -
Self-serving nonsense, Dave...

In reply to: Re: Ah, the SDS line still lives...

Dave, you are furiously backpedaling. How do we even know that you were in the SDS? Because you told us. Don't you remember back before Kerry was the main subject when the name of the game was still to discredit veterans? When you were trying to imply that courageous behavior (I think that was the term) was not serving, but protesting, you used your SDS membership as "credentials".
Now, suddenly having served is "fashionable" because of Kerry's campaign claims, and just like him you are trying to flip-flop on us. Who do you think you're kidding, Dave, many people remember your posts over past years. Do you think that they didn't notice the recent flip=flop in attitude toward veterans?
As I said before in previous versions of the Forum software, back then many people made a choice. I made mine, you made yours. I can, and always have been able to, live with my choice - and without later attempts to justify and/or redefine it. If you can't, that's your business, but don't expect me to buy, or apply to myself, your self-serving redefinitions.
I notice that you tried to tar people who have a problem with Kerry's claims as "hawks" with your words "and that's what the hawks have never forgiven him for." A PERFECT example to illustrate that your recent change of political camouflage is only skin deep, under it still beats the heart of the same old anti- military protest animal. Like Kerry, you might want to consider honestly owning up to your past actions. Both you and Kerry did what you did, and there is no way to go back and change history, in general, or just personal.

Collapse -
I humbly disagree J ...

In reply to: Self-serving nonsense, Dave...

Dave has not flip flopped on his attitude toward veterans, ONLY to select veterans such as Kerry and his "band of brothers" backers. He still excoriates veterans such as the VAST MAJORITY who repudiate Kerry and what he has done and stands for.

Ever notice how the media has not once inquired into how a very junior officer who only served 1/3 of a tour got his crew "safer jobs" immediately prior to running out on the unit? This does tend to make one wonder WHY this disproportionately small number of persons in the same unit at the same time are his only actual supporters.

Kerry's early departure meant that he was leaving behind a crew that had suffered through many bloody battles with him. Worried that crew members would be killed, he arranged for them to receive a safer assignment. When one crew member, Medeiros, tried to stay, Kerry "came and talked to me and said, `I really would like you to go. ... I'd like to know you are safe, or safer."'

Collapse -
I stand corrected, Edward...

In reply to: I humbly disagree J ...

Edward, I stand corrected. BTW, I just hurt myself, cleaning the house, so if I suddenly vanish from the Forum for a bit, I'll be back. Note: I'm alone in the house and don't want to do something like calling for an ambulance to check out the nasty-looking swellings (seems to be a lot of sub-cue blood) because if they took me to the hospital, I might be there longer than I'd like. I'll be O.K., I just posted that so if I'm gone for a while the gang would know why.

Collapse -
Hey dude, you ok?

In reply to: I stand corrected, Edward...

I'm guessing that you got banged up pretty good. Take care and get on back.

DE

Collapse -
I'm O.K.

In reply to: Hey dude, you ok?

I'm O.K. now, thanks David. Things will improve in many ways. Fortunately, I had some pain killers. I don't usually favor taking suck, but sometimes it's the wise thing to do.

Collapse -
(NT) (NT) Be well soon, and be careful about self injury evaluati

In reply to: I stand corrected, Edward...

Collapse -
Avoiding geting trapped, Roger...

In reply to: (NT) Be well soon, and be careful about self injury evaluati

Roger, I didn't call an ambulance because I didn't want to get "trapped" at the hospital, I've got some important things to do. Besides, if they were able to fix me up at the ER, the ambulance may not have taken me back home. In any case, I "got away with it" with just some quite ugly bruising. Ah well, "stuff" happens (grin).

Collapse -
Re: Self-serving nonsense, Dave...

In reply to: Self-serving nonsense, Dave...

Hi, J.

My attitude towards veterans has indeed changed (matured, actually) -- but not recently. It happened sometime in the 80's -- about the same time when (largely as a result of the Iran hostage crisis, ironically), I once again started feeling that the American flag represented me, and not just the war-mongering hawks. That's the problem with making the flag the symbol of a particular political viewpoint -- those who don't share that viewpoint no longer think of the flag as representing them. Late into the 70's my VW had a decal of a blue and green "ecology" flag (I'm sure you've seen them) with a peace sign over it, because the American flag would be seen by all as symbolizing approval of that damned war.

-- Dave K, Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!

Collapse -
When General Giap himself stated that you...

In reply to: Re: Ah, the SDS line still lives...

protestors were one of his best weapons and a morale builder for his troops in their fight against Americans it should at least give you a slight hint of the TREASONABLE and TREACHEROUS activies you engaged in.

Like it or not Dave there is AMERICAN blood on your hands and your attempts to curry favor with a "changed mind" (like Hanoi Jane and now Kerry applauding his crew that he formerly indicated were war criminals) is understandable but unacceptable.

Following one's concience to protest is what Cassius Clay did. Providing aid and comfort to the enemy is what you in the SDS did and that is exactly what the SDS agenda was.

Al Quada is doing the EXACT SAME THINGS today with the media advertised "protests" that Communist North Vietnam did -- using them and their divisiveness to their benefit.

Despite protestations to the contrary, you "protestors" have absolutely no concept of patriotism.

Collapse -
Re: When General Giap himself stated that you...

In reply to: When General Giap himself stated that you...

Hi, Ed.

Had the Generals' plot succeeded, it doubtless would have ended the European phase of WWII with the Germans on the losing end. That has no bearing whatsoever on whether participating in the plot to kill Hitler was moral or not. You're the one who believe in absolute ethics, Ed -- that means whether one's action can be used as propaganda by the enemy is irrelevant to whether those actions are right or wrong. Because taking anything into account other than the actions themselves would be situational, right? Of course, you want to have it both ways -- claim you believe in absolute ethics, and then use the situation to judge actions when you feel doing so is to your advantage!

-- Dave K, Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!

Collapse -
In that case, Kerry should do the really moral thing,

In reply to: Re: Veterans cannot/will not forget or forgive

and run on his REAL record. He should stop trying to portray himself as the faithful soldier 'reporting for duty'.

Collapse -
Re: In that case, Kerry should do the really moral thing,

KP, he WAS a faithful soldier -- unlike many hawks who used their influence to get out of fighting altogether, or followed the Bush-Quayle route of a cushy stateside assignment.

-- Dave K, Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!

Collapse -
Isn't that part of the question? Just how faithful was

In reply to: Re: In that case, Kerry should do the really moral thing,

Hanoi, four months and out, John?

Collapse -
No Dave he was NOT a faithful soldier...

In reply to: Re: In that case, Kerry should do the really moral thing,

and not just because he was Navy.

Kerry was flying a Kennedy staffer around to anti-war protests and participating in them himself while still serving as a Naval Officer. That is illegal activiey and also counter to the military services Standards of Conduct (which are not situational as some here prefer).

Kerry's own Diary has been shown to state AFTER the first injury he claimed as a wound that he had not yet been under enemy fire.

Have you looked at Kerry's web site at the various records that he chose to display? Have you wondered in the least how various of his citations are signed by different people (one the Secretary of Defense in the '80s) and actually are worded differently?

Haven't you wondered even a little how the AAR's for January reflect PCF 94 which was not under the command of Kerry in January, but commander by Peck? Kerry was on the PCF 44 and his gunner is one of those people you claim support Kerry every time you use the media abused and inaccurate phrase "supported by all of his crew" because that gunner who was on Kerry's craft MOST of Kerry's time has very little support for Kerry other than acknowledging Kerry was there.

Quick as you were to jump on Thurlow's citation to claim it supported Kerry's claim although Thurlow says there was no enemy fire why haven't you wondered why Kerry's citations (because there are various versions posted on his site) indicate his arm was bleeding and painful although the shrapnel was down where the leg joins the torso?

Kerry was faithful to himself and his hoped for legacy and his attempt to emulate his hero but that is all he was faithful to.

Collapse -
I have standing.......

In reply to: Re: Veterans cannot/will not forget or forgive

...just like in a legal situation, I have "standing"
in this matter. I am a combat veteran, of both Korea
and Vietnam. I served my FULL tour in Vietnam. I would
never leave my 'Band of Brothers' short of my full share
having been fulfilled. Particularly so as a leader.

The reason the veterans across this nation are opposing
Kerry is not because he 'collected' a few ribbons, or even
because he left before he completed a full tour. Our
opposition to that "traitor" is solely because of his activity
and statements after he left the Navy. He clearly provided
aid and comfort to the enemy while the shooting was yet
going on. He encouraged the enemy.

There were American's held prisoner who suffered because
of his activity.

We veterans had our personal opinions of the "political"
aspects of that war, then, and we hold them yet today.
I think it can be said that these opinions burn with more
ferocity within those of us who had boots on the ground
in Vietnam; those of us who "lost" men under our leadership,
than is at all possible for others. Personal opinion or
opposition to a national policy of the moment is not
sufficient reason, nor can it be used as an excuse, to
"abandon" the troops as Hanoi John chose to do. For
this he will never be forgiven.

This opposition is extremely personal, and goes much deeper
than any political leaning. This opposition is not political propaganda.
...He hurt us.... We intend to see him defeated in his quest
to add the Office of the President of the United States
of America to his "collection". An office for which he is totally unfit.
Such an outcome would be a disgrace to this great country.

Collapse -
Re: I haven't served in any army Del

In reply to: I have standing.......

but even i so...

i 'salute' what you just said...


.

Collapse -
Re: I have standing.......

In reply to: I have standing.......

del i did 2 full tours in nam saw and met lot of my bros in arms be it american turk, auzzie whatever what kerry did as you say was killing us as he had pulled the trigger.

i salute a fellow soldier and lets work to defeat that commie *******

Collapse -
Bringing liberty & freedom is never

In reply to: Re: Veterans cannot/will not forget or forgive

Fighting a war to bring life, liberty and pursuit of happiness to oppressed people is never ?immoral? or ?disgraceful.? The lesson of Vietnam is we failed as a nation at ?regime change.?

The ?cut and runners? will always be out there, and as in Nixon?s case, as a nation we elevated one to Commander-In-Chief. Kerry has made a campaign promise ?not to cut and run? in Iraq. Bush?s actions as Commander-In-Chief make his position on ?cut and running? in Iraq crystal clear.

There was a popular saying during the Vietnam War, ?When you?re up to your ?expletive deleted? in alligators, it?s too late to worry that your original intention was only to drain the swamp!!! This phrase applied to Vietnam then, and it applies to Iraq now.

I made three trips to Vietnam and contiguous areas of Southeast Asia. But I, and my Band of Brothers and Sisters were unable to ?drain the swamp.? We failed not because we couldn?t, but because Commander-In-Chiefs JFK, LBJ and RMN tied our hands and worked against us in our regime change efforts. As we were bailing brown water out of the Mekong Delta end of the swamp, they were pumping black water into the Hanoi Harbor end.

I am not happy that I ended up being an unwitting part of Tricky ****?s program to turn our Nation?s back on our ?democracy inclined? Vietnamese, Cambodian and Laotian friends and others over there. Republican Nixon, with the full blessing of the Democrat-controlled Congress and the Nation?s majority, decided to abandon defenseless women, innocent children, families and comrades-in-arms; high and dry in Harm?s Way with the ?swamp? not drained and still teaming with and being over-run by ?alligators.?

I become sickened each time I view the History Channel or other historic news footage showing the teaming, scurrying and terror-stricken South Vietnamese and Cambodian masses of civilian families that the TROIKA of Nixon, Congress and the Nation?s majority left ?flapping in the breeze.?

The civilian ?body count? carnage in South Vietnam and Cambodia, that resulted from Nixon?s 1973 decision, goes largely under-reported and unmourned. How many ?WTC Twin Towers? worth of ?innocents? do you think Pol Pot?s regime and Ho Chi Min?s liberators put into Eternal Rest?

To me, January 27, 1973 was a Blacker Day for America, then any in the whole Vietnam War that ran from 1959-1975. As black or blacker, than even the recent horrendous 9/11 ?death from the sky? carnage that was rained upon us some three years ago by 14 Saudis, 1 UAE and 0 Iraqis.

Our Vietnam Band of Brothers and Sisters fought for Peace With Honor, not Peace With Dishonor. As I sit here ratty-tat-tatting this into my keyboard, today?s Flag Draped Coffin count is at ~1000 and rising. The children and grand children of Vietnam?s Band of Brothers and Sisters are in Iraq, GIVING ALL at the rate of ~2 killed per day and GIVING VERY MUCH at ~13 injured per day. They also know there is no honor in deserting and abandoning defenseless women, innocent children and peace-loving families, leaving them to an army of ?Desert Alligators? who will do them harm.

Let me include this end note. It was recently reported, that today ?Vietnam?s human-rights record is among the worst?.?

Collapse -
(NT) (NT) Well said,.....Thank You

In reply to: Bringing liberty & freedom is never

Collapse -
That was the true shame and immorality of Vietnam, but

In reply to: Bringing liberty & freedom is never

Nixon didn't do it alone. Kerry and his ilk are who really caused that outcome.

Popular Forums

icon
Computer Newbies 10,686 discussions
icon
Computer Help 54,365 discussions
icon
Laptops 21,181 discussions
icon
Networking & Wireless 16,313 discussions
icon
Phones 17,137 discussions
icon
Security 31,287 discussions
icon
TVs & Home Theaters 22,101 discussions
icon
Windows 7 8,164 discussions
icon
Windows 10 2,657 discussions

GRAMMYS 2019

Here's Everything to Know About the 2019 Grammys

Find out how to watch the Grammy Awards if you don't have cable and more.