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General discussion

US War Dead in Iraq Exceeds Early Vietnam Years...

Nov 15, 2003 11:51AM PST

"PHILADELPHIA - The U.S. death toll in Iraq has surpassed the number of American soldiers killed during the first three years of the Vietnam War, the brutal Cold War conflict that cast a shadow over U.S. affairs for more than a generation.

A Reuters analysis of Defense Department statistics showed on Thursday that the Vietnam War, which the Army says officially began on Dec. 11, 1961, produced a combined 392 fatal casualties from 1962 through 1964, when American troop levels in Indochina stood at just over 17,000.

By comparison, a roadside bomb attack that killed a soldier in Baghdad on Wednesday brought to 397 the tally of American dead in Iraq, where U.S. forces number about 130,000 troops -- the same number reached in Vietnam by October 1965.

The casualty count for Iraq apparently surpassed the Vietnam figure last Sunday, when a U.S. soldier killed in a rocket-propelled grenade attack south of Baghdad became the conflict's 393rd American casualty since Operation Iraqi Freedom began on March 20.
"

US War Dead in Iraq Exceeds Early Vietnam Years

Discussion is locked

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p.s.
Nov 18, 2003 4:09AM PST

about that poverty rate...

The "poverty line" is arbitrary. Truth be told the standard of living of the "poor" in this country is better than just about anywhere in the world.

And interesting about 13%, as the unemployment rate in Germany is dangerously close to that. The more socialist they get, the higher it goes!

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Re:p.s.
Nov 18, 2003 4:57AM PST

Since Sweden has 4% and USA 5% I assume that you believe that USA is more of a socialist country than Sweden!

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Re:Re:p.s.
Nov 19, 2003 2:53AM PST

You assume wrong.

In a country that is socialist you have less personal freedom period. I didn't say that unemployment was statistically corrolated to any degree of socialism. I pointed out that your enthusiastic endorsement of more socialized countries touting their supposedly lower poverty rates doesn't jive with their generally correspondingly higher unemployment rates.

Here where 12-something percent are supposedly living in poverty, we don't have 11,000 people dying from a heatwave!

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(NT) Message has been deleted.
Nov 18, 2003 6:31AM PST
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(NT) Yet another dupe message deleted.
Nov 18, 2003 12:58PM PST

.

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Re:A new kind of government?
Nov 20, 2003 1:31AM PST
In those countries where the government has a lot more influence than here (such as the socialist countries in Europe) the poverty level is usually much lower.

Maybe you had better name those socialist countries because we seem to have a fundamental disagreement over what is or is not a socialist country. It would be interesting to see what you consider to be a socialist country if Sweden isn't.
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Re:Re:A new kind of government?
Nov 20, 2003 1:37AM PST

Personally I think it would be way more interesting to see a fact sheet provided by Edward or Evie (she seems to agree with him, but if not, I take back her name!) where it says that Sweden IS a Socialist country.

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Come on Charlie...
Nov 20, 2003 2:11AM PST

You mentioned "socialist countries of Europe". It helps to understand your definition of socialist if you tell us which ones you consider to be socialist.

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Keith...
Nov 20, 2003 12:33PM PST

I am not the one who started to call one country Socialist, Capitalist or Communist. That was Edward. So you should ask HIM to prove that Sweden is a Socialist country and that the Conservative party is a Socialist party! When he comes up with an official document or fact sheet about that, I will read it and respond to it. It's not because it is you, Keith, just that I don't feel that I should prove anything at all since I am not the one who accused any country of being one thing or the other.

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Oh, but you did, Charlie...
Nov 20, 2003 4:47PM PST

Maybe not one specific country but you brought up "socialist countries in Europe". Since everyone seems to be having a hard time meeting your hurdles for categorizing Sweden as a socialist country, it would probably be enlightening to all of us if we knew which European countries you did consider to be socialist.

http://reviews.cnet.com/5208-6130-0.html?forumID=50&threadID=3055&messageID=39094

In those countries where the government has a lot more influence than here (such as the socialist countries in Europe) the poverty level is usually much lower.

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Wrong!
Nov 20, 2003 5:01PM PST

My first post in this thread was this.

One of the answers that I got was this. And this is the first post where Sweden is mentioned as a Socialist country. After that I have tried to get some of the fellow members to prove that Sweden is a Socialist country, by official documents, as stated in the second link and so far no one has managed to do so.

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Talking about 2 different things...
Nov 20, 2003 5:57PM PST

I know you didn't start the "Sweden is a socialist country" topic. However, you were the one that said there were "socialist countries in Europe" and have now backtracked to say there are none (except maybe Albania). Are you now saying you misspoke when you mentioned "socialist countries in Europe"?

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(NT) - There was a slight sarcasm to that post....
Nov 21, 2003 12:46AM PST

`?

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Don't be obtuse Charlie....
Nov 18, 2003 1:46AM PST
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Do we talk facts or opinions?
Nov 18, 2003 2:37AM PST

First of all you refuse to trust what is said in the CIA fact book and prefers to trust an OPINION about Sweden instead! It's an opinion from a youngster who belongs to Timbro which I assume you know the history about. If not, look it up! It's not all that positive. If you remember the Chicago Boys with Milton Friedman (who inspired Fascists like Augusto Pinochet in Chile for example), you get an idea! It is an editor founded by the employer's organization and SUPPORTED by the Moderata Samlingspariet that you call SOCIALIST!

The tactics to call the right wing parties Socialist in order to be able to call oneself a liberal or simply "compassionate conservative" doesn't work for me and I doubt many will trust those tactics. Don't try to push the political scale in a way that makes you sound like a compassionate conservative!

What in the CIA's factbook is Socialism? Or are you saying that the CIA is wrong? In that case they may as well be wring when presenting every single country!

When calling Moderaterna a socialist party you clearly show your lack of knowledge about the country where I was raised and know a thousand times better than you. Moderaterna even supported GW. BUSH in the elections of 2000!!!! They celebrated Bush's victory as if it was their own! And if not too wrong they actually rented Caf

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Re:Do we talk facts or opinions? Cont.
Nov 18, 2003 2:39AM PST

The following is the introduciton of the party in English:

"The Moderate Party (moderaterna) is Sweden's leading non-socialistic party. Between the years 1991-94 we formed government with Mr Carl Bildt as Prime Minister. Today, we are the largest opposition party on the national level and form majorities in several regions and cities, as Sk

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makes it convenient for you to ignore their socialist leanings...
Nov 18, 2003 11:58PM PST

doesn't it Charlie.

A *** Mouse is neither a teat nor a mouse Charlie--it is simply what it is.

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Now they are LEANINGS?
Nov 19, 2003 2:45AM PST

Before you said it IS a Socialist country... I am still waiting for the OFFICIAL facts that tells you that Sweden is a Socialist country. And patience is a virtue!

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Of course.
Nov 19, 2003 11:18AM PST

Lets face it, the ultra right wing have been telling us for over a week now that USA isn't a democracy, its a Republic with democratic leanings.

Ed cannot prove his case, because itrs a complex issue and proof doesn't happen. "Leanings" is more accurate. There's never been a true communist country either.

Its time to stop worrying about this - measuring leanings is an opinion issue, and no one here, including yourself, is going to change their opinion.

Ian

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What?????
Nov 20, 2003 2:09AM PST

You don't like the microscopic splitting of hairs? The endless political debate that is designed more to provoke than to enlighten? Wink

Speaking only as a member. The opinions expressed are my own.

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I'm curious about one aspect of all your posts regarding this
Nov 18, 2003 5:50AM PST

Why the fascination with the CIA fact book?

Not disparging the CIA information, although as the spy organization it is I would assume that anything it releases is only partial.

It's just a little curious that you seem to believe that is the only reliable source of information (within this thread anyway).

roger

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I will tell you why...
Nov 18, 2003 6:41AM PST

because I happen to come from Sweden and I follow the news from the country very closely. So I know what is going on and can only admit, that despite the fact that I don't like organizations like CIA and Mossad or KGB, the facts that they provide are very accurate and rather objective.

Why the fascination? No, not any fascination, but simply still waiting for a few fellow members to tell me in what way Sweden is a Socialist MONARCHY (can you imagine??? It's like saying Semitic Nazism...). I repeat that a 90% of the Swedish industry is owned by provate business and anyone who knows the basics of Socialism knows that is impossible in such a society!

I hope I straightened out a few question marks Roger!

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You have been SHOWN...
Nov 19, 2003 12:00AM PST

if you can't believe your own country's OFFICIAL web pages then you are a total loss and I'll waste no more time here with you.

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I see you failed to even look at Sweden's own...
Nov 18, 2003 11:55PM PST

official government site Charlie. Disregarding other links (I knew you wouldn't "approve" of them although the facts can't be refuted) you should at least acknowledge what Sweden says about itself.

If you read EVERYTHING the CIA Fact Book has to say you will see that its Socialist government is well documented.

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LOL!
Nov 19, 2003 2:42AM PST

Edward,

You still haven't managed to show me ONE single line where the word SOCIALISM is included when it comes to Sweden and the economy of the country! Not ONCE!

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Re:LOL!
Nov 19, 2003 2:43AM PST

And I mean from an official document, not from an opinon from a ultra-right wing youngster!

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not an official document, but still an interesting read
Nov 19, 2003 3:35AM PST

"I was walking through Gamla Stan, the Old Town in Stockholm, when it struck me that Sweden was the only country I?d ever been in with no visible crazy people. Where were the mutterers, the twitchers, the loony importunate?"

http://www.lewrockwell.com/dieteman/dieteman33.html

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You are right, not ONE but SEVERAL...
Nov 20, 2003 4:58AM PST

keep denying Charlie. Won't get you anywhere nor will it remove the fact of a socialistic form of government but it makes you feel better.

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Re:Our freedom?
Nov 17, 2003 2:17PM PST

Sheesh! My Son & DIL are both in the military Charlie!
They consider the military service they perform part of the duty any citizen should be willing to perform! My Husband was also in the military and all accepted the fact that, YES, They may not come back! But feel it is worth it! Any place in the world that has arms and is willing to attack the USA it's citizens or citizens of their own country, Is what we fight for! Saddam had a choice abide by the rules or we would enforce them! He didn't we did! Enough said! And this is all I have to say on the subject with you, as I am not going to get into an ongoing dialogue with you that has no end in sight.

Glenda

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Re:Re:Our freedom?
Nov 17, 2003 3:03PM PST

As long as the USA wants to implement their/our way of democracy, our citizens will ALWAYS be threatened. And it doesn't help to invade countries. Do you think that you as an American citizen are safer today than before the invasion and occupation of Iraq?

The UN inspectors were willing to keep looking for the WMD's and asked for three more months. USA didn't want that since our presidents dadda had been threatened by Saddam Hussein. So he decided to lie to the security council by saying that they had EVIDENCE of WMD's. Until today nothing is found. The only thing GW has succeeded with is to sacrifice more lives on both sides.