Thank you for being a valued part of the CNET community. As of December 1, 2020, the forums are in read-only format. In early 2021, CNET Forums will no longer be available. We are grateful for the participation and advice you have provided to one another over the years.

Thanks,

CNET Support

General discussion

US War Dead in Iraq Exceeds Early Vietnam Years...

Nov 15, 2003 11:51AM PST

"PHILADELPHIA - The U.S. death toll in Iraq has surpassed the number of American soldiers killed during the first three years of the Vietnam War, the brutal Cold War conflict that cast a shadow over U.S. affairs for more than a generation.

A Reuters analysis of Defense Department statistics showed on Thursday that the Vietnam War, which the Army says officially began on Dec. 11, 1961, produced a combined 392 fatal casualties from 1962 through 1964, when American troop levels in Indochina stood at just over 17,000.

By comparison, a roadside bomb attack that killed a soldier in Baghdad on Wednesday brought to 397 the tally of American dead in Iraq, where U.S. forces number about 130,000 troops -- the same number reached in Vietnam by October 1965.

The casualty count for Iraq apparently surpassed the Vietnam figure last Sunday, when a U.S. soldier killed in a rocket-propelled grenade attack south of Baghdad became the conflict's 393rd American casualty since Operation Iraqi Freedom began on March 20.
"

US War Dead in Iraq Exceeds Early Vietnam Years

Discussion is locked

- Collapse -
NT - Still no official documentation!
Nov 20, 2003 8:01AM PST

`?

- Collapse -
Still no official documentation?
Nov 20, 2003 8:20AM PST

What does it take to meet your hurdle of "official documentation"? It looked like Ed had some pretty good links there.

You mentioned "socialist countries of Europe" in another part of the thread. I thought it was relatively simple for you to name them as I am only asking for your opinion on which countries are socialist. I wasn't asking you to prove they are socialist via "official documentation".

- Collapse -
AFAIK
Nov 20, 2003 10:18AM PST

there are no Sofficially Socialist vountries in Europe... I don't know about Albania, but I don't think they are considered as a Socialist Republic anymore. Apart from them, I doubt there are any... And if there are, please show me!

- Collapse -
Ok, humor me, give me a definition of an offical socialist government?
Nov 20, 2003 11:04AM PST

Because honestly, I don't see where anything fits any better than some of the discussion.

If we're talking about ideal forms, they don't exist for any form of government.

IMO, socialist applies just as well as capitalist does to Sweden, and vice versa. As I pointed out in other post, it's just about as much one as the other.

roger

- Collapse -
(NT)Ya'll have fun, the spinning in circles is making me dizzy ;-)
Nov 20, 2003 12:29PM PST
Wink
- Collapse -
Re:AFAIK
Nov 20, 2003 11:09AM PST

I wasn't the one that said "socialist countries in Europe".

As for links about Sweden, here's a book review by a fellow Swede that says that Sweden is a semi-socialist state.

Postrel applied on a semi-socialist state, January 12, 2003
Reviewer: Fredrik Grubb from Sweden
As a citizen of Sweden Postrels book gets a special meaning. As a liberal politician in Sweden even more so.

Sweden can be classified as a semi-socialist state. On one hand Sweden is modern and liberal when it comes to all the standard human rights issues. On another there is a very deeply rooted, and dominant, culture of social engineering and socialization. Virtually everything, and I really mean everything, is in some manner under direct political influence. As everything in this country is politics, everything is also subject to thorough planning, scheduling and political debate. From my point of view, Sweden is a "stasist" state with very little room for any kind of dynamist influenses. This book has given me, beeing an anti-socialist in a semi-socialist society, new hope. Maybe there are other ways to break the stale mate in our country, when it comes to analyzing politics. I'll apply the dynamist-stasist dimension here, and see what happens.


or maybe a polling and strategy firm is more to your liking as an independent view.

As FDR had done in the United States, the Social Democrats in Sweden responded to worldwide depression in the 1930s with strong government intervention. The U.S. then entered World War II, became a world power, and remained strongly capitalistic, while the Swedes remained neutral, continued to internally build their Swedish model, and became prosperous as a democratic socialist state with a strong emphasis on exports.

- Collapse -
Liberals and Socialists...
Nov 20, 2003 12:28PM PST

According to Edward, even the most Conservative party in the parliament, is socialist...

And this is another OPINION and not a fact sheet or official document.

- Collapse -
You should define ''official document''...
Nov 20, 2003 4:32PM PST

because everything in politics can be dismissed as opinion. The surest way to kill a project is to have undefined or impossible requirements. Sorry Charlie but you're doing both in this thread so nobody can possibly answer your question.

While you're at it, you should define "socialist" and the scope of that too. If we could prove the government is socialist in policy, you want a link regarding the economy. Moving targets...

One last try. If these aren't official, I don't know what is...

Sweden - Politics
Social Democrat

I don't think it is much of a stretch to get from "moderate form of Socialism" to "semi-socialist". But that's just my opinion. Wink Since this all started with a comment about a "Socialist country", maybe we can now agree that Sweden is a semi-socialist country and go back to the original topic of the thread.

* I've forgotten what the thread was originally about *

- Collapse -
Re:Sorry Charlie ...
Nov 21, 2003 5:49AM PST

Evie, Charlie is apparently ashamed to face the facts that his own country's government is not ashamed to publicly display.

Regarding the second part of your post it might explain why Charlie is here instead of there.

- Collapse -
Would you please provide a specific example from Charlie's post that demonstrates hysteria.
Nov 19, 2003 11:58AM PST

All I can see is that you tried to make it a personal rather than a political issue. Charlie declined your challenge.

Ian

- Collapse -
I agree, why should she?
Nov 18, 2003 2:49AM PST

However, you state that "... Do they have a Constitution? Sure do and so did the DDR and strangely enough the old DDR Constitution is quite similar." - Edward O'Daniel

What are the similarities that prooves that Sweden is a Socialist country?

And as a reply to why I posted the link to the CIA's fact book, was because I took for granted that you wouldn't trust what was said by the Swedish government but preferred a spy organization that comes from your own country instead. But you still refuse to answer if you think that the CIA is wrong in their observation of the Swedish government and of the society and how it is ruled.

- Collapse -
if I point out the specific portions and similarities...
Nov 18, 2003 11:45PM PST

you will argue so I have just pointed out the document and you can do a little reading on your own.

i am not socialistically inclined and firmly believe that you should work for what you get. TANSTAAFL!

- Collapse -
I realize...
Nov 19, 2003 2:55AM PST

that you seem to have good language skills Edward. So far you have showed us one word in German and a few phrases in Swedish which isn't bad at all!

Now, unless you present a proof of what you claim to be reality, how could I or anybody else in this forum possibly trust you? I guess there are people that trust every single word you say, but I am not among those. I want to see a copy of the part of the DDR constitution that is similar to the Swedish and which makes Swedish a Socialist country of course, because that is what we are discussing and we are still waiting for you to come up with a fact sheet that says that Sweden is a SOCIALIST country....

- Collapse -
If Ed truly believes in TANSTAAFL, then USA is a socialist country as well. :-)
Nov 19, 2003 11:03AM PST

.

- Collapse -
Re:If Ed truly believes in TANSTAAFL, then USA is a socialist country as well. :-)
Nov 19, 2003 12:22PM PST

It may as well be so Ian. There is a political tactic that is to say that everything to the left of what one believes is Socialism/Communism/Extremism. Some people listen to that and actually believe it. And the result is that people like Milton Friedman, from the Chicago Boys, can be portrayed as a very compassionate conservative! Remember the Bush slogan? That is pure political tactics! In that way, even the most pro-capitalist can be called a Commie because he/she believes in a more fair distribution of money. It?s like the Nazis, everything that wasn?t according to their program, was Communism/Judaism! Or like in the former Soviet Union; if you wanted SOME reforms you were a fascist. Old tactics that shouldn?t be trusted at all!

- Collapse -
Re:Re:If Ed truly believes in TANSTAAFL, then USA is a socialist country as well. :-)
Nov 19, 2003 12:42PM PST

"There is a political tactic that is to say that everything to the left of what one believes is Socialism/Communism/Extremism."

And equally a common tactic (here and real world) to brand everything right of personal stance as cold-hearted, unfeeling, greedy, condensing, etc conservatives.

roger

- Collapse -
True!
Nov 19, 2003 12:55PM PST

It all depends on where we stand politically. Some people admit that they are socialists, progressive liberals, communists, extreme right, and others pretend to be something that sounds good in order to acquire sympathy.

- Collapse -
So you are PRETENDING to be...What?
Nov 20, 2003 4:53AM PST

never mind, rhetorical...

- Collapse -
Representation of opinions to left and right of oneself
Nov 19, 2003 4:17PM PST
And equally a common tactic (here and real world) to brand everything right of personal stance as cold-hearted, unfeeling, greedy, condensing, etc conservatives.

This wasn't said here. I cannot speak for Charlie, but in my case I know people who are very right wing - from where I am - who frequently demonstrate feeling, care etc.

Ian
- Collapse -
Just balencing the scales
Nov 19, 2003 9:53PM PST

"my case I know people who are very right wing - from where I am - who frequently demonstrate feeling, care etc"

I suspect most of us know people all over the political spectrum we like and respect. And the same range of people that are very active in caring for others.

Here at Speakeasy (and in "real world" political speeches, etc), some have protrayed conservatives as greedy robber baron types who didn't give a dam n for the unfortunate.

I'm just pointing out the counterpart to Charlies -

"There is a political tactic that is to say that everything to the left of what one believes is Socialism/Communism/Extremism."

Both are used unfairly.

roger

- Collapse -
Not yet but the Liberals are trying their hardest...
Nov 20, 2003 4:28AM PST

to make it so.

Their screams when duplicated welfare programs funding is cut are music to the ears.

- Collapse -
No you don't...
Nov 20, 2003 4:49AM PST

I am not asking for your trust nor do I need it Charlie.

I have provided you adequate links but I am not about to spoon feed you like an infant. You are a big boy and can click on links and read English so you should have no problem locating the information provided.

You might remember your previous advice to "Google it!" and actually get somewhere.

You really want a "Fact Sheet"? Will that shut you and your infernal whining and denial up? I doubt it because I previously linked you to other OFFICIAL Documentation and that didn't help you at all, but here is one spoonful and you better learn to use the spoon yourself now - http://www.sweden.se/templates/FactSheet____3152.asp
A universal social welfare system has long been an overall objective of Sweden's Social Democratic Party. The party's signature issue has been combating unemployment, but it has also focused heavily on health care, education and social service issues, which are included in the policies of other parties as well. In light of the Social Democratic Party's size and long experience in government, it actually has a major influence on nearly all fields of public policy.

http://www.sweden.gov.se/systemofgov/governments/index.htm
An illustrated overview of all the governments that held office during the 20th century including the name of the Prime Minister and the government's political affiliation.

- Collapse -
LOL!
Nov 20, 2003 5:00AM PST

And there is still not ONE single line mentioning SOCIALISM! Keep searching!

- Collapse -
(NT) Message has been deleted.
Nov 19, 2003 3:48AM PST
- Collapse -
Dupe Message deleted.
Nov 19, 2003 8:35AM PST

.

- Collapse -
Not really ...
Nov 18, 2003 2:59AM PST

... as Ed correctly points out, it has never been uncommon for threads in Speakeasy to take a turn here and there -- which is why the threaded format is so user-friendly as it allows for side discussions when they pop up.

I have no desire to debate the government of Sweden with you. I did see a little "gotcha" in the fact that timber is a major resource that the Swedish economy depends on and it would be tragic if the species of trees were to someday find themselves on the GreenPeace/UN hitlist of protected endangered trees is all. Don't you think?

By the very nature of the governance, socialist societies are less free than ours. Most of our reduced freedoms of late can be directly traced to increased social programs. When the government owns and controls anything, that means that you are not free to as an individual. The less power the government has over our lives and life choices, the more free we are.

- Collapse -
The lonesome hobo...
Nov 18, 2003 3:23AM PST
"The less power the government has over our lives and life choices, the more free we are." - Evie

By this you are basically saying that if the government just leave the hobos to die on the streets, they would feel more free... Or didn't you include the homeless, drug abusers, ghetto families etc?

I think it is time to admit it; The less goverment, the more room/space there is for the higher middle class and the upper class to invest their money for their own winning and greed and do whatever they want. But the working class and those below them are obviously groups that don't count in this case!
- Collapse -
Before government ...
Nov 18, 2003 3:44AM PST

... tried to fix these problems, there were a lot less of them. And private charity organizations did a good job of taking care of those that did exist.

When it is released, I highly recommend you read a copy of Star Parker's Uncle Sam's Plantation. She's a pretty amazing woman who I think is in a far better place than you or I to speak on such issues.

The war on poverty has been an abject failure. It's time to save lives and bring the troops home.

- Collapse -
A new kind of government?
Nov 18, 2003 4:04AM PST

So maybe you need a new kind of government who feels empathy for those people who are not able to take care of themselves. To leave it up to private charity organizations ONLY, means that there is no control at all on WHO are being helped or HOW they are being helped. Therefore the government should do it. And if one government can't handle it, go for another!

It's interesting to see the CIA's estimation of hte poverty level in the USA which is almost 13%. In those countries where the government has a lot more influence than here (such as the socialist countries in Europe) the poverty level is usually much lower. Do you have a theory why this is the case?

- Collapse -
Why do you feel the need to control charity? (NT)
Nov 18, 2003 4:06AM PST

.