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General discussion

Upgrade The Ram for Graphics Design Student?

Jun 10, 2005 1:34PM PDT

I was going to purchase/male a new computer this summber. However, after all of the debates I have read over the past couple of weeks, I have decided to hold off purchasing a new computer until longhorn comes out, or at least until the dual core AMD's or dual core laptops reach a reasonable price. Having said this, around this time (first quater 2007) it is expected that Apple will have dual core intel chips in all their systems, even laptops. Is anybody else holding out on purchasing a new computer or not?

I am a graphics design major and have been noticing that my computer is beginning to show some signs of age. Would an upgrade to 756 Ram do the trick?

What I currently have is a Toshiba P25-s477

2.4 Pentium w/ HT at 800mhz FSB
512 RAM
120GB

Discussion is locked

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1GB
Jun 10, 2005 1:55PM PDT

I'd say upgrade to 1GB. Nice and round number. Good enough for everything, and maybe play a game once in a while...

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(NT) (NT) 1 Gig is more than enough
Jun 11, 2005 12:06AM PDT
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but i'm guessing it's not...
Jun 13, 2005 5:17AM PDT

the RAM that is really holding you back as much as the CPU and GPU are holding you back
a 2.4GHZ HT equipped Pentium 4 isn't anything to write home about, and it's also rather hot for a laptop (i mean temperature)

i'd consider getting a new system before Q1 2007
that's over a year away, i'd suggest picking up a new system to run what you need...

if your thinking going Dual Core because you want to future proof the machine, i'm going to tell you it's pointless to even try...as the computer is basically outdated the second you buy it, we can thank competition for that

I bought my 6800GT around a month and a half ago under the belief that i'd be near the top of heap until July-August
about 2 weeks ago I read about G70...release date: June 21st-22nd (from what i've read)

so that means my $300 6800GT will be top of the heap for another 9 days as of this writing
i'm not saying things get out dated that quickly, and graphics move the fastest, but I am saying that most things get outdated rather fast, as someone always has something that's bigger and better

if you want to be on the cutting edge of technology, you'll need to invest around $800 a year, and $1400 a build, which you should replace once every 2-3 years

also, Intel being in Apple isn't anything i'd get excited about
consider that Intel while still the market marjority is truly playing catch up to AMD, they are in the #2 spot from a tech standpoint

Intel's new Pentium D chips don't offer much performance increase over Pentium 4, and in some cases the 570J or 3.73EE Pentium 4's can actually defeat the Pentium D 840 EE (which costs about $300 more than either of those CPU's)

as far as AMD's Dual Core chips are concerned their released later this month, and their performance increase isn't as huge as it was supposed to be either, Dual Core just makes multi-tasking an easier thing (meaning for your application it wouldn't be bad)


Intel however does have the best mobile platforms, and has designed a dual core chip for notebooks which was on display at CeBIT (called Yonah, the chip that is)
it's projected to be the succesor of the Pentium M
it should be launched later this year, but, like Pentium M, will cost a pretty penny

if you truly want power for graphics design, I would say avoid dual core, and build yourself an SMP workstation, with a pair of Xeon's or Opterons on either the Intel "Tumwater" (Xeon) or nVidia nForce4 Professional (Opteron) chipset, which will provide 2 x16 PCIE slots

the advantage to this is the ability to run a pair of graphics cards in SLI, OR support 4-8 monitors from a pair of PCIE cards (8 would be on a pair of Matrox Parhelia cards for PCIE)

with SLI you could combine a pair of Quadro FX 4400's, which would be amazingly excessive (considering that each once will set you back around $2700) and probably wouldn't benefit you hardly at all, but you could combine together a more cost efective card
or support multiple monitors with multiple GPU's for multi-tasking


with an SMP you will get more perfrmance than the best dual-core system can offer
and if you want Intel, you'll anhilate their dual core, as their dual core's are horrible


the issue with Intel is heat
which is why their Apple stuff doesn't really make me go "ooo!"

Intel can't get cores over 3.2GHZ on their dual core platforms, and at 3.2GHZ it's pushing 140W (which is insane, when AMD is running at around 103W, and providing about 20% more power)

an SMP provides upto 3.6GHZ from Intel
OR if you REALLY want to get into this, 2 dual cored Opteron 200 series chips (each core at 2.2GHZ iirc) from AMD (not sure if the nForce4 Pro can support this, it should though)

which would be a 4-way SMP system, with Opterons
and believe me, that would provide more power than any dual core you'll be able to buy for about 18 months

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but i'm guessing
Jun 13, 2005 10:11AM PDT

it sounds as though you think I have pockets lined of gold. for crying out loud man! those opteron processors are $650 alone. i dont want to spend $800 a year on upgrades, i also dont want to get new computer every other year. im going to install the ram and i think it will do the trick. 2.4ghz should be fast enough to last me for another year or so until thos opterons become more reasonable in price!

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but i'm telling you they WONT
Jun 13, 2005 3:13PM PDT

the Opteron series will always cost between $400-$1200
only when AMD discontiues Opteron, entirely, and produces a new line (not an ew core in an existing line, but like the move from AthlonMP to Opteron)

a computer for professional application is rather expensive
I don't believe your pockets are gold lined, but as most people on c|net know, I start at the more expensive end of things, and work down (it's easier to subtract)

you can do a dual Xeon for $600 for both chips
but if you'd like to try adding the RAM, i'm sure it could help (it wont' hurt, except maybe battery life)

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apple and intel
Jun 13, 2005 7:18PM PDT

apple is looking to intel for mobile solutions.
the main reason for apple going intel is heat...the g4 is what is used in the notebook/laptop line and it still gets kinda warm on my lap. IBM g5s get too hot for a notebook and intel seems to present the answer to the mobile megahertz question (as far as apple is concerned).
I run photoshop,illustrator, and a web browser continuously at any given time on my iBook and they all run fine but the iBook is not as suitable if you are doing video as the powerbook (with a beefed up video card and bigger bus comming standard).
The apple os is awesome for stability but I kinda like the xp interface better...office for mac rules though. Should you decide to go apple for a professional machine you wont be disapointed but you may become frustrated by lack of games and other small niceties during everyday home use.
The big question concerning money and switching to apple is...can you afford the software switch? Sooner or later, you will need the liscensed versions of the aps you use if you dont already have them (in my experience, most students dont). You may get the legal versions in your first pro job but do you have access right now.
For a PC, ram is always the cheapest upgrade to better performance. Do that first. For a graphics PC you should be running at least a gig right from the start. If you want to build, look at gaming machines as an example of a sturdy art producing design.
check out ArsTechnica at

http://arstechnica.com/guides/buyer/system-guide-200504.ars

for a good writeup of current DIY builds. they change this every 3 or 4 months and give links to the old builds as well.

also a good link for anyone getting into graphic design is

www.creativepublic.com

it is a good resource for busines tips for anyone going independent.

Grim

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i'd suggest as far as...
Jun 14, 2005 10:28AM PDT

a quick upgrade for performance, the most noticeable upgrade is actually the graphics chip, even over the CPU, unless your doing non-graphics intensive work (like databasing)

as far as ARS Techinca is concerned
their "God Box" is more like a top ten most wasteful products ever
for a gaming system SCSI is worthless
RAID is essentially pointless
Windows Server is never considered
those graphics cards aren't the best you can buy
nor are those CPU's
and 4GB of RAM is pathetic for a high power SMP on unlimted budget

the hot rod also falls short, with underpowered CPU, and graphics to fit what i'd call a hot rod, not to mention their obsession with M-Audio, which is only a choice for video editing/professional applications

for home use the Audigy series from Creative is ideal
no matter what your doing, not just gaming

personally their so called "god box" could be made much better, if they scraped SCSI, added more RAM, embraced nested RAID in the form of SATA RAID 0+1 or RAID 10 (very simmilar modes, just reverses of each other)

and then if they used 512MB 6800U cards (since we are on the topic of wasting money faster than you could light fire to it)

along with 8GB of RAM, just to make it "that much better"

the best gaming machines have between 1-2GB of RAM
1GB is normal for a gaming computer
2GB is just a luxury item, but not even needed (maybe a 2% performance boost)

dual LCD's just drives me batty
along with their case suggestion, if your spending money like no other consider a Mountain Mods UFO or a Lian-Li

possibly a Koolance (but the Exos water system isn't so great)

for the CPU's themselves i'd take the Opteron 252's OR a pair of Xeon 3.6's

in addition i'd prefer to see the IWil dual PCIE x16 board for Intel, over the Asus which only offers 1 AGP 8x, over SLI capability, not to mention i'd like it if SuperMicro were not suggested
for a few reasons:

A) their only market is servers
B) hardly any of their boards offer AGP or PCIE
C) their not going to give you a chance of overclocking, not that the IWill, Tyan or Asus would either (Xeon's don't OC well, and Opteron's are about the same) but the SuperMicro is just cutting off any chances

in addition Reg/ECC DDR has high latencies, and probably could not offer the performance found in regular DDR


also, using 2 PCIE slots you could support a maximum of 8 monitors on 2 cards (PCIE Parhelia's from Matrox)

their suggestion of the Parhelia isn't so good, considering the PCIE versions are hard to find, and often overpriced (not that the AGP ones are fair either, their also amazingly expensive)


their low end optical drive choices are also rather odd, considering that NEC, Pioneer, Plextor, Sony and HP offer far superior drives, with faster write speeds, more abilities (such as LightScribe found on HP and a few other drives)

the Exabyte drive is a joke, considering that their looking at 3 147GB hard drives, backing up with a maximum of 160GB
on an $800+ SCSI tape drive

that isn't affordable, nor is it practical
Iomega's REV or even plain DVD DL/DVD-RAM disks would be superior in terms of cost

their PSU suggestion is a joke
for a true master system, an 850W PCP&C should be used
in addition their lack of liquid cooling is rather disturbing (considering that liquid cooling mounts are avliable for Socket 940, for Socket 604 it might be harder, but for 940 you can even phase cool them)

the Dell monitors, while kings of the LCD arena, could not hold their own to equivalently priced CRT's (as CRT's in that price range are of the highest quality (at or above professional photo and video grade))

since their all about wasting money their speaker choice is pathetic

if you really wanted the best system on earth, getting basic optical outputs into a 7.1 Hi-Fi amplifier from Yamaha, h/k, or a higher end brand such as Krell or Rotel (in which case the amplifier would cost as much if not more than the computer) and using high end speakers from B&W, Martin Logan or (if your really feeling wealthy) a company like Boothroyd Stuart Meridian or Mark Levinson (at which point the sound system will cost about as much as the house it's sitting in)

their mouse suggestion is good, and their KB suggestion includes a second mouse


for $10,000+ that system really seems rather impotent
considering my >$2000 system, while not able to outbench it or break it's FPS levels, could compete and do each game at above 40 FPS at almost anyresolution

plus, my lack of LCD's means i can change resolution at will

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good points all...
Jun 14, 2005 1:51PM PDT

but I was just trying to point out that there are resources out there you can use as a guide...not necessarily a blue print...That is if you want to build yourself a box. Also consider that if you go back 6 months, their examples become much more affordable due to price drops on the equipment they suggest.

Gaming machines need to be video intensive but graphic design has some different requirements that can be accomplished with a lower priced machine. For a gamer and a game designer video ram is a very important factor...also if you are doing video editing... but frames per second come in second with static programs like illustrator, photoshop, and quark express where calculations per second determine how long you sit and wait for a filter effect to take effect. If you are a graphics student, then your best example of what you need in a computer is going to be the machines you see being used in class. Your instructor could probably point you in the right direction as well. Go to the creative public site I posted and link through to the forum...there you can ask all the pro graphic artists there what they are using.

Grim

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The Ram for Graphics Design Student?
Jun 15, 2005 2:06AM PDT

Since ozos realy tackled the hardware, I talk about that longhorn thingy that MS is blowing a lot smoke over.
My personal feelings a about longhorn are "I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for MS to come out with it"
I never switch to new MS OS untill they do a SP1 on it.
So if MS gets it out by the end of 2006 it will be 2008 when SP1 for comes out. Then maybe I try it.

For Graphics and video you need a good processor and fast dual channel memory and a realy good monitor that you can calabrate. John

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uh...
Jun 15, 2005 5:06AM PDT

Longhorn's release date is mid-May 2006
Windows Longhorn server (to Longhorn as Windows Server 2k3 is to XP) is due in fall

SP1 is due at the same time

Longhorn SP2 is planned for launch summer of 2007 (yes, they actually roadmapped release dates for two service packs)