Thank you for being a valued part of the CNET community. As of December 1, 2020, the forums are in read-only format. In early 2021, CNET Forums will no longer be available. We are grateful for the participation and advice you have provided to one another over the years.

Thanks,

CNET Support

General discussion

U.S. to Probe 80 Sex Assaults Against Female Troops

Feb 6, 2004 6:24PM PST

.
The government seems to be making progress. It's gone from "it will not be tolerated" to now "looking into it". Maybe in a few months they will actually DO something about it!!


"In a memo signed Thursday, Rumsfeld noted concerns that some female soldiers have reported sexual misconduct but have been left in their units to serve with those accused of assaulting them.

The Pentagon is expected to appoint an ombudsman to oversee the investigation.

Rumsfeld's order goes beyond previous Pentagon statements saying that sexual misconduct would not be tolerated."

http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/02/06/military.assault/index.html

Discussion is locked

- Collapse -
Those latrines can be dangerous .....
Feb 7, 2004 2:10AM PST

.
"She was stationed with her Fort Lewis, Wash., unit at Camp Udairi, about 15 miles from the Iraqi border. She had just finished guard duty at 2:30 a.m. and was stepping into the latrine when she was knocked unconscious, she said.

She recalled waking to a man raping her. He had tied her hands with cord, stuffed her underwear into her mouth and wrapped cord around her head. When she began to fight, he threatened her and then again knocked her unconscious.

Afterwards, she was driven to an aid station, where a rape examination was performed. She received no other treatment for the injuries to her head, back and knees, she says. She was then interviewed for about three hours, she said. Requests to see the chaplain were denied, and she was not given counseling for sexual trauma, she said."

- Collapse -
While that sounds bad...
Feb 7, 2004 4:16AM PST

we only have one side of the story (hers) and if the injuries were visible or even likely they would have been treated REGARDLESS of the origin or cause. Having been hauled into far too many aid stations any claim of untreated injuries simply doesn't ring true.

There is also an ASSUMPTION that the perpetrator was another service member although since it happened at Camp Udairi, it could have been a civilian or even another national.

The part about the chaplain is meaningless because we don not know if she actually asked to see one, if one was available, if one was promised when available, or any of the rest.

Since she was driven to the aid station it would appear to any reasonable person that someone in the military was concerned and attempting to do a bit of fact finding, so what is your point?

- Collapse -
It's not about 'sexual misconduct'.....
Feb 7, 2004 2:04AM PST
- Collapse -
Re:true, it isn't
Feb 7, 2004 2:33AM PST

my post related to the link you provided, not the one you posted later....

- Collapse -
Re:It's not about 'sexual misconduct'.....
Feb 7, 2004 2:39AM PST
To protect the soldiers' privacy, the victim advocacy organizations declined to release details of individual cases and revealed only general trends.

We don't know.
- Collapse -
No, it is about witch hunts and...
Feb 7, 2004 4:28AM PST

social engineering using the military as an experiment platform.

Rapes happen, so do murders, beatings, thefts and writing bad checks. The actual INCIDENCE of such is lower in the military than in MOST urban areas (and since the service members must live in closely packed conditions an urban area is a more appropriate comparison than a small town).

The military is limited as to resources and forward medical teams tend to concentrate on providing immediate aid rather than any short or long term counciling services.

How about getting some reporter to report on the rapes in just one night in Chicago or Seattle, or Portland, or New York City with the same fervor. You won't because they can't write the story to pick on and demonize any specific group even though they would have FAR MORE subject matter.

- Collapse -
+ & -.......
Feb 8, 2004 1:02AM PST

it's as simple that. You can't fool Mother Nature!

Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld has ordered a 90-day review into allegations of sexual assaults against female soldiers in Iraq and Kuwait

I am not making light of this by any means and if my daughter was a victim it wouldn't do for me to get my hands on the guy responsible for such an action. I also believe that we can't put men and women together 24/7, in tents, without something going hay-wire.

I do not want to stir the hornets nest here, but women on the battle field just shouldn't happen. When putting a group of individuals against opponents while engaging in physical combat the strong will always survive. Women are not physically equal to men and it?s just not fair to ask a group of men to lay their lives on the line without providing them with the nearest equal physical strength as their opponent. I am not referring to mental abilities and the making good judgement. I am saying that fist to fist women are not mans equal. Mother Nature determines this fact. Hand to hand combat is not the same thing as the meeting of minds in a court room, or saving a life in an operating room. Physical combat is a mater of strength and stamina.

Now back to the point. When sexual misconduct is proven it should be dealt with accordingly. It shouldn?t happen ever.

I am directing that you review how the department handles treatment and care for victims of sexual assault, with particular attention to any special issues that may arise from the circumstances of a combat theater, the memo said.

We should also re-think our objectives on the battlefield and the situations we are putting our kids into as well.

mojo

- Collapse -
We should also re-think our objectives on the battlefield
Feb 8, 2004 7:02AM PST

.
I agree with that! However, a bit too late for that I think

I did note your comment that "It shouldn't happen ever". However, your choice of "sexual misconduct" is interesting? I notice how men like to use this phrase and "sexual harassment" about the situation. And throw around such as "wolf whistles" and "accidental exposure" to make these charges sound frivolous.

First of all let's call it what it is, sexual assault. Rape. The story and charges first came up a couple of months ago. The administration's response was that "it would NOT be tolerated", now "they are looking into it" and will do so that for three months. And then will probably be extended for another three months.

One forum member even implied that choosing to be a soldier a female should expect what happens to her. Another said it's no big deal because it happens all the time anyway elsewhere and in larger numbers. Oh geez, what a comfort that is!

I can understand the attitude of the men and that they condone the actions, especially one that has made it clear just what he thinks of women in general and women in service in particular. However, from all indications, it seems like most of the women in the forum agree with their assessment and that surprises me. Are we back to the attitude that "she must have asked for it by the way she dressed or behaved"? I'll tell you how she behaved, she put her life on the line the same as any man out there!

And a boob flashed on the TV screen for a fraction of a second brings about an outcry, pro and con, of such magnitude it challenges the imagination!

Go figure.

- Collapse -
Re:We should also re-think our objectives on the battlefield
Feb 8, 2004 9:15AM PST

Hi Rosalie,

I used the term sexual misconduct because that is the term used in the article you linked to. If I was the C.O. of a unit, I would not tolerate such actions for one minute. I agree with you that those girls on the battlefield are there to fight and die with a conviction no less than the bravest of men. But, our being so damn politically correct about equal rights issues on the battlefield puts our boys and girls lives in jeopardy.

After reading your reply, I know that you understand the intent of my little soap box session in my previous post. I admire the conviction of those girls willing to fight and die. Anyone showing disrespect for such certitude is pretty damn shallow.

I hope you had a nice weekend. Happy

mojo

- Collapse -
Re:We should also re-think our objectives on the battlefield
Feb 8, 2004 7:33PM PST

You really should just stick to voicing your own opinions and not try to re-interpret those of others. I never said it was no big deal Rosalie, what I DID say was that in context with the rest of society, the military actually has a BETTER record than most other sectors in protecting women (and BTW, how many young Iraqi girls are thankful today that Uday and Qusay won't be picking them up from the walk home for a little rape session?). No sector of society or organization can have total control over the personal behavior of every person in their pervue -- else we would have a crime free society.

You go off on the men for calling it sexual misconduct. First of all, the latrine rape was not even detailed in your original link. It would help to have provided that link as well from the get-go if that's what you are going to go off on. Well ... AGAIN ... from YOUR article:

In a memo signed Thursday, Rumsfeld noted concerns that some female soldiers have reported sexual misconduct but have been left in their units to serve with those accused of assaulting them.

An allegation of sexual misconduct just simply cannot be assumed to be forcible rape as you apparently have. It's mixing some selected tidbits from the scant details that creates disproportionate hysteria. I doubt that Danielle from your second link was sent back to her unit to serve alongside her rapist (it's not even indicated in that report if the rapist was a fellow American soldier).

In civilian life Rosalie, when you make an allegation against someone for sexual misconduct you or they are not immediately reassigned until the charges have been investigated and either confirmed or dismissed. It's a WAR Rosalie and the social engineers may not like this much, but full service rape counseling on the battlefield is just not a priority of the military. These women DID get help stateside. Of the 37 who went to a private center, it was stated that it was unknown if these had also been reported to the military. Well, then how exactly is the military supposed to deal with a problem if it is NOT reported to them?

Pentagon officials said all of the cases have been investigated. While some have proven without foundation, others have led to disciplinary action.

Sounds like an appropriate response.

NOBODY has ever said sexual assault was acceptable, anytime or any place. Do yourself a favor and cease inferences that anyone ever did!

I can understand the attitude of the men and that they condone the actions, especially one that has made it clear just what he thinks of women in general and women in service in particular.

This is a scurrilous accusation Rosalie. One you ought not make at all, but certainly not in your no naming of names fashion designed to incite. Whose words are you misconstruing to come to this nastiness? NOBODY condones this, NOBODY BUT NOBODY!

However, from all indications, it seems like most of the women in the forum agree with their assessment and that surprises me.

It ought not surprise you that some women agree with the sentiments that the men have ACTUALLY expressed as opposed to your distorted regurge.

And a boob flashed on the TV screen for a fraction of a second brings about an outcry, pro and con, of such magnitude it challenges the imagination!

This is fascinating Rosalie. Did you catch the act? Did you see the context under which that boob "popped out" That was a simulated sexual assault Rosalie, and you might just want to reconsider what message it sends to young men and women that anyone should NOT be disturbed by this act performed at the wrong place and time.

It's a little hard to take seriously some of what falls under the vague but vast umbrella of "sexual misconduct" when scenes such as this are apparently no big deal to some of the same women. I would note for you that the 37 women "have sought sexual-trauma counseling and other assistance from civilian rape-crisis organizations "

It sounds like this administration and the Pentagon under the direction of Rumsfeld is doing the right thing. What's your beef?

- Collapse -
You are now limiting this to JUST ONE incident...
Feb 9, 2004 2:43AM PST

and totally ignoring the original which points out that allegations are investigated and many have been found to be false allegations.

Why do "...men like to use this phrase and "sexual harassment" about the situation. And throw around such as "wolf whistles" and "accidental exposure" to make these charges sound frivolous."? Because of the very simple and basic FACT that far too often they are. Why do some women such as yourself want to completely ignore that?

The ONE INSTANCE that you keep referring to should NOT be referred to as Rape, because at this point in time it is still ALLEDGED RAPE and nothing more--since you are the one insisting, CALL IT WHAT IT IS.

Getting all bent out of shape over an incident that is FAR LESS COMMON in the military is more than a little disingenious Rosalie. Your purpose seems to be spelled out with your statement:
I can understand the attitude of the men and that they condone the actions, especially one that has made it clear just what he thinks of women in general and women in service in particular. However, from all indications, it seems like most of the women in the forum agree with their assessment and that surprises me.

Because NO ONE here "condoned" any actions. Several have simply pointed out things that escape your understanding however. Women in the service realize that rape is a possibility--the same realization that EVERY WORKING WOMAN (including housewife) has. Military Women are also aware that they, and the men in the unit, may be under some stresses that are not common in civilian life--they accept it or they should get out because that is how it is.

You are not interested in justice or facts, you are interested in demonizing the military and it isn't working.

- Collapse -
The problems of a coed military are not just ours!
Feb 9, 2004 7:19AM PST

The IDF of Israel has been dealing with this for years! Even though for many super-orthodox women are treated in a typically middle eastern manner sexual harrasment has been a problem in the Israel military since the beginning!

Here is just a sample of what happens when men and women are thrown together in the pressure cooker of war!
http://www.time.com/time/europe/magazine/2000/0703/sexcrazed.html