Thank you for being a valued part of the CNET community. As of December 1, 2020, the forums are in read-only format. In early 2021, CNET Forums will no longer be available. We are grateful for the participation and advice you have provided to one another over the years.

Thanks,

CNET Support

General discussion

U.S. to Probe 80 Sex Assaults Against Female Troops

Feb 6, 2004 6:24PM PST

.
The government seems to be making progress. It's gone from "it will not be tolerated" to now "looking into it". Maybe in a few months they will actually DO something about it!!


"In a memo signed Thursday, Rumsfeld noted concerns that some female soldiers have reported sexual misconduct but have been left in their units to serve with those accused of assaulting them.

The Pentagon is expected to appoint an ombudsman to oversee the investigation.

Rumsfeld's order goes beyond previous Pentagon statements saying that sexual misconduct would not be tolerated."

http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/02/06/military.assault/index.html

Discussion is locked

- Collapse -
Re:U.S. to Probe 80 Sex Assaults Against Female Troops
Feb 6, 2004 9:38PM PST

80 reported, How many more went unreported because they felt nothing would be done about it?

- Collapse -
And how many of the 80 ...
Feb 6, 2004 10:55PM PST

... are false charges? It does happen. From the article:
Of the 80 Army reports, investigations into 43 have been concluded, and 33 of those have been determined to require further action, the Pentagon said. Thus approximately one-fourth of the reports have been investigated and do NOT require further action. Should such events be investigated thoroughly and prosecuted? Of course. But much of this is hyped in order to present military men in the worst light when a woman in many other occupations stands a far worse chance of being the victim of such an assault.

Keeping things in perspective, "During 2003, the Army had 80 allegations of sexual misconduct among service members, the Air Force seven allegations, the Marine Corps one allegation and the Navy none, according to the Pentagon. " Now considering the size of our armed forces, that is actually a rather low rate. Compare that to the number of such reports on enough college campuses combined to equal the population of our military. Eighty will sound infinitessimal by comparison.

Evie Happy

- Collapse -
Re: nt ... ONE is too many. If you really want things in perspective
Feb 6, 2004 11:19PM PST

.

- Collapse -
I don't know what world you live in ...
Feb 6, 2004 11:50PM PST

... but one absent of all sexual assault does not exist. I'm glad they are looking into ways to assist the victims, but I do take exception to the overhyping of sexual assault in the military. My point being that a woman has a far greater chance of being assaulted on any college campus and we don't see colleges as an institution being smeared for it. Since Tailhook, it has been fashionable to add yet another bad stereotype to that of military men and I don't think that is fair or warranted.

Last year the University Police Department reported 10 forcible sex offenses, some of which may not have been brought before a SJS hearing board. This is at George Washington University alone -- student population ~ 10,000 undergrad, 20,000 total.

Evie Happy

- Collapse -
You make 10 forcible sexual assaults sound acceptable...
Feb 7, 2004 12:24AM PST

.
depending on the number of the 'group'. I think you would feel differently if you were one of those 10.

I don't know what kind of world you live in but I live in one where forcible sexual assalts are NOT acceptable.
.

- Collapse -
You twist my words.
Feb 7, 2004 12:32AM PST

No assault is ever acceptable. But neither should be overhyping assaults in the military for whatever purpose. The truth is that so long as we have humans there will be some sexual assaults. My point being that if one extrapolates the #of assaults at GWU to a population the size of our military, that 10 translates to 240 reports for a college campus vs. 80 for the military.

I applaud that measures are being taken to ensure victims get proper care and counseling. You can't stop all assaults although eliminating co-ed units to the maximum possible would sure go a long way. Would you support that?

- Collapse -
Re:I think i heard something about "a kinder gentler world "somewhere(nt)
Feb 7, 2004 2:43AM PST

.

- Collapse -
Women shouldn't be in the military if they want a 'kinder and gentler world'.
Feb 7, 2004 10:58AM PST

That's not what we expect the military to be. They kill people and break things as efficiently as possible.

- Collapse -
Re:Re:I think i heard something about
Feb 7, 2004 8:30PM PST

I think Bush 41 strove for a Kinder Gentler Nation -- is this what you are referring to?

MK, there is no way I know of to eliminate rape and sexual assault from society short of isolating women (and if women's prisons are any judge, that may not be enough either).

You are missing my point (deliberately?) which is that women are not at greater risk of such assaults while serving in our military, compared to just the one university one could say they are at lower risk. There were 251 forceable rapes in our nation's capitol in 2000. I think I would feel safer in the military than there, how about you?

I just find these kind of reports counterproductive.

Evie Happy

- Collapse -
That's your standard?
Feb 9, 2004 1:24AM PST

A woman in the military is safer than a woman in prison.

Be all you can be while you keep an eye on your brothers in arms.

I believe that they are at less risk of rape than in other situations, but we shouldn't defend a level above zero.

Dan

- Collapse -
So, you want the military to have zero crime?
Feb 9, 2004 2:00AM PST

Please explain how they could possibly acheive that.

- Collapse -
(NT) Again *sigh* NOBODY is defending, condoning, accepting ... Sheesh!
Feb 9, 2004 2:14AM PST

.

- Collapse -
Some reason you avoided numbers in DC and Schools?
Feb 9, 2004 2:20AM PST

Since the military comes from the country at large one cannot expect its members to be any saintlier than the country's citizens as a whole.

It should impress you that on average the crime rates regarding military personnel are far below national averages and if you disregard the crimes of civilians against military members in the military statistics (not normally discounted) it is even more impressive.

Impressive that is except to those who think the military should be a test bed for social engineering rather than the fighting force it is intended to be.

- Collapse -
Be it the military, college or kindergarten ...
Feb 7, 2004 12:14AM PST

.
NO ONE, male or female, needs to accept an assault, especially sexual, for any reason, let alone because "it happens elsewhere just as much"!

- Collapse -
Did I say they should?
Feb 7, 2004 12:27AM PST

You too live in a dream world if you think this sort of thing never happens. It was your editorializing that sparked my comment -- as if they are finally doing something about it. Eighty complaints in one year for a troop population approaching 1/2 million is not worthy of the overreaction that generally colors such stories. The military does more about it than most colleges and that is a far more dangerous place for a young lady.

- Collapse -
HUH?
Feb 7, 2004 2:07AM PST
NO ONE, male or female, needs to accept an assault, especially sexual, for any reason, let alone because "it happens elsewhere just as much"!

If an incident is reported and it is investigated HOW in the name of all that is holy do you arrive at a conclusion that anyone is attempting to force acceptance?
- Collapse -
And nobody said they should!
Feb 7, 2004 2:43AM PST

I am merely pointing out that there is an agenda to the disproportionate attention given to this and it won't be long before the Bush haters start accusing him of sending women to Iraq to get raped ....

Inadequate response is wrong. That needs to be corrected. But even the Chronicle article seems to piece small tidbits from different cases together to paint a very skewed picture. The woman in the bathroom, for example, does not claim to have been forced to return to duty with her rapist in the same company.

- Collapse -
Re: False charges -- depends on the occupation, Evie.
Feb 7, 2004 7:05AM PST

>> But much of this is hyped in order to present military men in the worst light when a woman in many other occupations stands a far worse chance of being the victim of such an assault.<<

Specifically, it depends on the extent to which a "good old boy system" is in control at the top, so the attitude towards many instances of blatant harrassment is "just boys being boys."

-- Dave K, Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!

- Collapse -
Spoken like a man lacking any knowledge of the military...
Feb 7, 2004 11:41AM PST

and you should be more than a little ashamed of yourself.

You have never even been on a military installation have you Dave.

While a very few instances are indeed "overlooked" the vast majority are seriously investigated and in the military the accused must prove innocence rather than the other way around as it should be. It is actually quite a bit like the teachers and professors who harass or take advantage of their young female students--a few instances are "covered up" but most get the attention deserved.

Maybe we should compare the ratio of teacher/professor instances of sexual harassment allegations to those of the military. I don't think the academics would fare too well.

- Collapse -
Re: Spoken like a man lacking any knowledge of the military...
Feb 9, 2004 2:29AM PST

Hi, Ed.

All you have to do to see the truth in my charge is look at the sad coverup of the Tailhook debacle until Congress get involved, and more recently the Air Force Academy scandal. BTW, I have been on military installations -- my father retired as a Major (reserves) in CIC.

-- Dave K.
Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!

- Collapse -
Nope...
Feb 9, 2004 3:05AM PST

because even with tailhook and the AF Academy it was pretty much on the same order as Clinton and Monica or the Army Drill Instructors and the female trainees.

Under PC standards it was indeed abuse of a subordinate EVEN THOUGH in many instances the "abuse" was consensual.

Had NOTHING to do with any "good old boy" system and EVERYTHING to do with what was initially found as opposed to what was later found ONLY AFTER previously non complaining females came forward and lodged a complaint. Had they done so initially the incidents would have been investigated at once. They didn't and thus there wasn't much to investigate nor reason for any investigation--the military leadership CANNOT READ MINDS any more than you can.

Just like in the initial article here, several cases of civilian rape counciling HAD NEVER BEEN REPORTED. HOW IN THE NAME OF HELL do you assume that something unreported should have been investigated?

As I said, you apparently have never been on a military reservation--the cantonment area isn't all there is to see and experience. As a child you were going and seeing what Daddy took you to see and that was not normal life. Probably saw as much at the local Sears or Penneys as you did at the PX/BX.

- Collapse -
Re:Nope...
Feb 9, 2004 3:56AM PST

***
because even with tailhook and the AF Academy it was pretty much on the same order as Clinton and Monica or the Army Drill Instructors and the female trainees.
***

At tailhook they were assaulting women in the hallway. How is that like inappropriate consensual relationships?

Dan

- Collapse -
Nice try but...
Feb 9, 2004 4:28AM PST

picking and choosing out of order and context and ignoring what was actually stated in favor of what was not stated won't work.

If you had trouble understanding this statement Had NOTHING to do with any "good old boy" system and EVERYTHING to do with what was initially found as opposed to what was later found ONLY AFTER previously non complaining females came forward and lodged a complaint. Had they done so initially the incidents would have been investigated at once. it is a comprehension difficulty you will need to care for elsewhere.

I spoke of the INITIAL investigation and such claims were NOT MADE until after that initial investigation and not to the initial investigators.

- Collapse -
Re:Re: False charges -- depends on the occupation, Evie.
Feb 7, 2004 8:36PM PST

Really?

Let's shine a light on academia, not to mention our esteemed politicians.

Evie Happy

- Collapse -
Re: False charges -- depends on the occupation, Evie.
Feb 9, 2004 2:34AM PST

Hi, Evie.

I assure you such charges are taken very seriously in academia. I'm not really sure about the political arena, though the adversary system probably assures that more attnetion is paid to such charges than seems to have happened in the Air Force Academy case, frinstance.

-- Dave K.
Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!

- Collapse -
I would thing zero would be the expected number.
Feb 9, 2004 1:18AM PST

But I guess I have higher expectations from our armed forces.

Dan

- Collapse -
Re:I would thing zero would be the expected number.
Feb 9, 2004 2:16AM PST

I would expect zero amongst clergy of various faiths

I would expect zero amongst women in prison

I would expect zero between spouses

I would expect zero amongst teachers

I would expect zero amongst parents

I would expect zero amongst doctors, dentists and nurses

I would expect zero from the cops, firefighters

And I would be living in a dream world not inhabited by humans.

- Collapse -
Considering that EVERY service member is human...
Feb 9, 2004 2:25AM PST

how can you REALISTICALLY expect them not to have some human frailities.

Even if the numbers were doubled or tripled the low numbers would be amasing IF you bothered to consider for an instant the extreme stress many of the military in the area are under. People tend to act strangely and sometimes even abnormally under stress.

Since I doubt you are perfect or even close how can you expect those serving to be?

- Collapse -
Re:nothing quite like a ''naughty'' headline to catch the eye
Feb 7, 2004 1:40AM PST

compare the headline by Barbara Starr:
Rumsfeld orders review of sexual assaults

to what is said in the article:
Rumsfeld noted concerns that some female soldiers have reported sexual misconduct

let's not forget that in this oh so "PC" world, a wolf whistle can be considered sexual misconduct...

- Collapse -
Re:Re:nothing quite like a ''naughty'' headline to catch the eye
Feb 7, 2004 2:03AM PST

As can smashing a hand, or finger and hollaring "sun of a *****! that hurts!"

Sexual "misconduct" is also often reported in the military by a female when a male enters a lone latrine that the female inside failed to hang the Occupied sign on.