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General discussion

TiVo vs. Cable DVR

Nov 29, 2006 11:47PM PST

Yesterday, the BOL crew vehemently supported TiVo features over DVRs supplied from cable companies.
I must speak out in favor of my Adelphia DVR, which I absolutley love. It records in HD, and allows me to record 2 different channels while simultaneously watching a third recording (I believe that this is only possible with analog cable on the Series 2 DT TiVo). I also find it to have adequate hard drive space for my needs. All of this for a ridiculously cheap monthly fee, as opposed to forking over $600-$700 for an HD Series 3 TiVo.
Just a small shout out for the non-TiVo users!

Melba
Salem, VA

Discussion is locked

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My TiVo vs. Cable DVR experience
Nov 30, 2006 12:52AM PST

My experience since switching from Tivo to Cable DVR has been the same as TMV Consultants. My cable company is Brighthouse and this thing is so horribly designed it is crazy. I too have run into the problem Molly had with the stupid thing turning off WHILE I'm watching TV because it just happened to finish recording. It even does this if I'm PLAYING something I already recorded!! If I ask it to record reruns and first runs, it will tape EVERY episode played, even if it is the same episode (hello, I don't need three copies of the Family Guy "Peterotica"!!). I think a 2 year old could have designed a better unit.

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Cable DVR: Scientific Atlanta
Nov 30, 2006 2:18AM PST

I am a cable subscriber with Time Warner Cable who issue Scientific Atlanta hardware for DVR's. So far, I haven't experienced any problems. *WAIT* scratch that, our first DVR did have some technical issues, but it was truly faulty hardware and not poorly designed. We turned the DVR in and got a new one and it's been working perfectly.

I haven't experienced any "Molly Heroes Cut-oFF" experiences.

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Does anyone know
Nov 30, 2006 2:26AM PST

Does anyone know what Suddenlink uses for their DVR's? Tomorrow my parents are supposed to be getting a DVR as part of Suddenlink reworking the packages they offer. They have an option of dropping to a lower package which doesn't include the DVR and they are wondering if it is worth the try for the year they are going to have to pay for it.

BTW, in case you do not know what Suddenlink is, its a combination of Alliance, Tele-Media, Thompson, USA Media, Cox and Charter, Kingwood Cable, Classic Cable, and formally know as Cebridge Connections.

So get used to the name, they have over a million customers and seems like its growing everyday.

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Tivo over HD
Nov 30, 2006 2:49AM PST

I have both DVR's (2 tivo's and a comcast HD DVR) and I have to say that most of the time, the whole family ends up in the small family room or the bedroom watching the Tivo's on small NON-HD TV's (no Surround sound) instead of watching the 57" HD TV with the HD, Dual tuner, HDMI Comcast DVR. This is because Tivo is worth watching in LOW-def rather than watching that POC Comcast DVR in Hi-def!!!!!!

-Joe

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OK, so I help create those "bad" DVR interfaces...
Nov 30, 2006 3:54AM PST

Greetings from the land where the Comcast DVR interface is made. I am responding to statements made about the Comcast DVR (and cable/satellite provider DVRs in general) on the 365th podcast of November 29, 2006. The 3 ? minutes where M.T.V. (Molley, Tom, and Veronica) talk about the DVRs has been internally passed around our firm.

First, we all agree the TiVo interface works very well. It does set the standard for all other DVR interfaces. That said, comparing the TiVo to those DVRs provided by the cable companies, like Comcast, isn?t truly a fair 1:1 comparison.

Differing Hardware

As you know, Comcast does not make their settops, but instead purchases them from 3rd party vendors like Motorola, Scientific Atlanta, Pace, and a few other companies. Additionally, each vendor has numerous cable boxes, each varying slightly while offering the same end result to the consumer. Add to this that each of those companies have their own firmware and hardware architecture, and you can see how building an interface that works across all of these platforms can be challenging.

Additionally, there have been times when we had a better design, but it could not be implemented due to hardware and/or firmware constraints. An alternative had to be created and implemented until the manufacturer to resolve their issues.

Differing Cable Providers

The EPG (Electronic Program Guide) you see in Comcast?s Bay Area is not specific to Comcast. That guide is used in Time-Warner, Cox, Charter, RCN, Adelphia, Shaw, Cogeco, and many other cable providers in Canada, USA, and Latin America. That?s right, one guide, millions of consumers, and many cable operators all wanting it to be ?their way?.

Storing of Program Info.

The way the program listings get delivered to the hardware is different. For Motorola boxes, program listings are stored on a server at the hub (a.k.a headend). The data is continually streamed down to the settop and stored in volatile RAM. Meaning, you unplugged the cable box, it can take 4 hours to get all 14 days of data listings back into your settop.

Contrast that with TiVo, which actually stores the listings on your cable box. Pull the plug, restore the power, wait for the box to reboot, and *woo-hoo* all of your cable listings are there because they?re stored on the box, not remotely.

Legal Issues

While cable providers want to produce a better interface, TiVo and other firms hold many patents that may or may not be feasible to license. For example, did you know someone holds the patent on a 3-column grid? Yep, that?s right. You can build an interface with 2 ? hour columns of program data, or maybe 4 ? hour columns of program data. But if you want 3 columns, you?ll have to pay a licensing fee ?cause someone owns it.

Now, imagine how many patents TiVo has since it basically created the DVR industry. Imagine you can?t name your regularly schedule programs a ?Season Pass? or you can?t show your guide in green, or implementing the Skip Fast-Forward feature at a rate of 5 seconds, but must use 6 instead? get the idea? Take DRM, rename it Patented Intellectual Property, and try to create a similar wheel while staying within the legal realm and pay little to no licensing fees? not pretty.

Additionally, you?ll notice the little TV Guide logo on your TiVo listings? Want to know why it?s there? It was part of a settlement of a law suit TV Guide and TiVo had. Funny part is, the program information on the TiVo actually comes from Tribune Media Services, not TV Guide.

Time

Like any business, the cable business is driven by time-to-market. So while issues like the muted volume while recording, or the ?This recording has stopped.? overlay hangs there for a minute, are annoying, they weren?t seen as ?showstopper? issues, and therefore deployed as-is. Poor user experience? Yes. Money generator? Yes. But like that?s new of any company nowadays...

I hope this provides you with some insight into some of the reasons the Comcast DVR looks & acts as it does. We are continuing to work on improving the look, feel, and behavior of the DVR as we move forward. (I?ve already seen the preliminary of what the 2008/2009 version of the guide is going to look like, and it?s sorta Macintosh-esque)

Just be aware, your concerns are being heard.

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thanks
Nov 30, 2006 4:03AM PST

Very nice to hear from a pro of the subject.

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Comcast / Tivo
Nov 30, 2006 4:51AM PST

Thanks for the update from Concast, but.... (Nothing personal from this point on...) Boo-Hoo, Comcast has to pay licensing fees to Tivo to get Tivo functionality. Pardon me, but take some of the money you get from overcharging me for a crappy DVR device (and remote) and use it to get me a tivo (or Tivo front end on the current Comcast DVR).
-Joe

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Oh woe is us...
Nov 30, 2006 5:17AM PST

While I understand your frustration, (I own 2 TiVos which I bought before working here) it's a much larger picture.

As Eric Savitz points out in the 11/20/2006 Barron's Online/Tech Trader Daily Blog titled "Comcast: Love The Company, Hate Their DVR"

"... Sunday's Action Line consumer complaint column in the Merc reviews a long list of complaints about the boxes, which are made by Motorola (MOT). At some level, you have to think Motorola is more to blame for this than Comcast. Here's hoping they figure out a way to fix this stuff before people get frustrated enough to reconsider buying a box from TiVo."

And remember, Motorola and other settop makers don't GIVE their settops away to cable providers. They charge them several hundred dollars for each settop. Multiply that times a MINIMUM order of 1 million settops, and you can see how the licensing becomes an issue. (example: $3 license fee/settop x 50 million/year per cable provider x 50 cable providers....)

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Comcast's Money
Nov 30, 2006 5:27AM PST

Again, nothing personal, but I do NOT care what Comcast has to pay. They are charging me (and everyone else) up the you know what. Sign a deal with Tivo and stop wasting the money I pay on Motorola or other DVR's.
I dont even think I have a choice to get a new tivo because I have to get 2 HD cable cards in that thing to even hook up to Comcast. What will Comcast customer service say to me about getting those compatable cable cards? Hmmmm I wonder.......

Again, thanks for the insight into the dark side (Comcast) and I hope you dont take any of this personally.
-Joe

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But you do care
Nov 30, 2006 6:58AM PST

I would argue that you do care what Comcast has to pay. After all, all of those costs are going to be passed down to the consumer.

Also I think Comcast has actually done a very good job in following the market. People like their devices to be easy to setup. It is very hard to get Tivo HD because of the cable card factor. At some point Tivo might realize they might have a very good market selling to lots of cable companies. This really turns the table when in negotiations.

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I agree
Nov 30, 2006 12:53PM PST

I'm not really interested in the complicated web of reasons why generic cable company dvr's are not up to snuff. Every business is complex. It still doesn't excuse a mediocre product.

My experience with a Scientific Atlantic DVR from Time Warner was horrendous. It recorded programs just fine. The entire problem was all in the interface... or lack thereof.

It had no search function...none whatsoever. So if you wanted to see if a favorite old movie was on in the next two weeks you have to scroll, slowly and painfully, through the "titles" list, 10 minutes later and you might have made it to the end of the "A's". Go through all the letters of the alphabet and you have just wasted several hours of your time. No search by director or keyword (only scrolling through "genre" "title" and "actor"), no tivo to go, no programming via the web.... the list of deficiancies goes on and on.

Yes they are cheap and I'm sure they fit the cable compannies bisness models but that still doesn;t answer the question, are they great products? I'm happy to pay the extra for the TiVo.

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The High Def SA8300HD
Dec 1, 2006 7:27AM PST

To be fair, every concern mentioned in your post is addressed in the HiDef version.

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Heard
Feb 28, 2009 9:26PM PST

I agree 100%!! I am a comcast customer, and I am in the process of switching to Tivo!! It has so much more to offer, I only wish that they provided cable too so I wouldn't have to give Comcast anymore of my money!

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sounds like the lawyers have messed everything up again
Nov 30, 2006 7:54AM PST

as usual.

I, too, am satisfied with my Scientific Atlanta DVR from Time Warner. I've had it for a couple of years now (not the same one, we swapped out the original when it got buggy). I've noticed improvements over time and it does most of what I'd like it to. It's very easy to use, my youngest son could use it when he was first learning to read, when he could only read certain words. As long as he could recognize the network and the TV show's name that he wanted, he could program a recording and play it back by himself, without help. My father, who always calls me to get help with his computer, seems to be able to use his DVR as well (his is from Adelphia, I don't know what brand).

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Patent(ed) Nonsense
Dec 1, 2006 3:23AM PST

I think it's time some of these patents are challenged on the basis of "obviousness" At least the Supreme Court appears to be interested in such reviews.

However, expressions like "Season Pass" are probably registered under copyright law. But then again, whatever YOU decide to call is is irrelevant. What counts are the results - functionality ia the only thing the consumer is interested in.

One more thing to think about: Regardless how good a product is, it can always be improved. So rather that saying, how can we be like Tivo, a better approach would be, how can we make a better Tivo?

As far as limitations are concerned, caused by cable company imposed specs, look at Microsoft. They make say, Office for their own OS, as well as MacOS. Not by having the same programmers work on both, but by having a totally separate team of programmers work on Office for Mac.

OK, all this may be easier said than done, but I tought I'd just throw you the challenge. After all, nothing in business is ever easy.

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Okay so if you helped create the bad DVR interfaces...
Dec 1, 2006 3:32AM PST

I had recently been converted to the DVR side. I have comcast in Boston and they provided me with a motorola setop dvr box. One of the things that the service rep I spoke told me was that eventually there would be something down the pipe from Tivo + Comcast. Does that mean Comcast customers would receive a Tivo-Motorola-Comcast settop Cable DVR box?

At the very least, will Comcast customers at least get Tivo's interface to replace the default GUI on Comcast's set-top boxes, what's the status on that?

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Comcast DVR with TiVo
Jan 29, 2007 11:34AM PST

The answer to your question is "kinda"

I got a peek at Comcast's new Moto box with TiVo and... well... it's not exactly like TiVo. It has a lot of features stripped out of it. The reason is what my collegues and I face every day: the Moto box.

TiVo stated in a meeting that it was the most painful integration they've experienced. Of course we said "Welcome to our world."

The Comcast DVR with TiVo will provide you the TiVo basics (Season Pass, Prioritization, and TiVo's translucent guide). However, it will not have things like moving backgrounds, Photos & Movies, Showcases, or Recommendatons.

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Here's what the Comcast DVR with TiVo looks like
Jan 29, 2007 12:28PM PST
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Comcast DVR
Dec 1, 2006 4:08AM PST

Nice to see that we're being heard. I have had nothing but problems with Comcast's DVR, HD and computer. Constant pixilation on the HD and also have had entire programs devoid of dialogue. I run my tv through
my surround sound system, have an audio cable but still there are times when all that I hear is muted background music but no dialogue. Commercials, however, come through just fine. This problem exists only on the HD set with the DVR. Other sets in the house have all the sound. What's with that????? Recently, myself and many other people are experiencing weird things with the remote. Pause, and it doesn't, rewind and it goes forward, play and it does nothing. Other problems is hitting a function key and nothing happens. The yellow light comes on the box but it just hangs there. Of course, us humans hit it again 2 or 3 more times and suddenly, all the commands run. Last night I missed 20 minutes of Grey's Anatomy because the remote wouldn't pause and when it finally decided it would, I could not get it to go forward, instead it reversed almost 40 minutes. Now I try to catch up and it wouldn't do a thing. I'm ready to pull my hair out with this system. Apparently, the entire Chicago area is being affected. What's going on? I'm ready to leave Comcast on everything.

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center channel
Dec 1, 2006 4:44AM PST

Your lack of speaking sounds like the center channel is getting dropped some where.

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Comcast DVR strangeness
Dec 2, 2006 3:48PM PST

I, too, have the Comcast Motorola DVR box. I love the two tuners and ability to watch a recording while both tuners are recording something else. However, there are some strange things happening. I already swapped my first box out for a new one. But this one is doing the same things.

1. pixelation now and then.
2. sound drops out entirely. I found that if I swap tuners it comes back. Sometimes the picture is gone along with the sound. Swapping tuners also fixes that.
3. Every once in a while the recorder claims that the hard drive is 100% full, even when it is really more like six or seven percent full. In agreement with Murphy's law, it seems to happen when I've missed the first twenty minutes or so of a show and try to rewind to the beginning to watch it, or when a sceduled recording is supposed to start.
4. When doing a fast search backward or forward, speed 1 sometimes just freezes and I have to hit the button again to go to speed 2 to unfreeze the picture and actually make it move.
5. Sometimes it doesn't recognize a repeat and records it. This is true for, say, the Simpsons when the episode is actually from maybe 2002, as well as for some new things that are shown again, for example, Battlestar Galactica, which they show again later the original night and again on the following Monday night.

I do love being able to fast forward over commercials! I have found that, especially when experiencing problem #3, shutting off the power and unplugging the DVR for one minute fixes the problem for a couple of weeks. I am concerned about missing things if I go on vacation for a week or two.

I have found that for issue #5 that if I don't delete the recording after watching it, it will not record it again.

I have come to realize that these things are not the specific box I have but are actually shortcomings of the model in general.

I hope my fixes, though temporary, are of some help to some of you.

Dana

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TiVo . . .hands down ! No question!
Jun 26, 2007 12:19PM PDT

TiVo . . .hands down ! No question!
We have both and I HATE the cable DVR . . .That is actually why I am writing . . .I JUST had ANOTHER bad experience and I am fired up . . . . I hate it . . .We had TiVo first and I guess I was spoiled by TiVo . . . It is just so easy . . .better searches for upcoming movies and programs, so easy . . . selecting upcoming programs to record . . .. so easy. . if you don?t know what you want to record in particular. . .TiVo is a so easy to search by movie . .by actor etc. I know cable offers these features but it is NOT easy. I much work to go through the menus etc . . . . TiVo has easier controller functions . . .much better forward and rewinds through recorded shows. . .I just can?t believe anyone who has actually compared the two would be able to say they like the cable DVR better . . .If anyone says that they are LYING . . . It just does not compare. TiVo hands down . . . my concern is that Cable DVR, due to it convenience and availability, will win out. Why pay for quality when you can get crap for free!

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TiVo vs Satellite DVR
Nov 30, 2006 3:09PM PST

We've had 2 DirecTV Tivo units and they have been great, then there was a new upgrade available and I thought we'd give it a try. We had the DirecTV Plus DVR R15 for 4 days and then we made the phone call to send it back to DirecTV. If it had been our first DVR, we might have thought it OK, but going from a Tivo to this thing, is like being served dog food and being told it is Filet Mignon. The hard drive may be bigger and the R15 has a few bells and whistles but the DVR basics are missing. The user-interface could not be less intuitive - Jankiness to the power of infinity. Tivo has a smooth, professional feel and the R15 is like a junior high science project built in someone's basement. (I do have to say the service guy who came to the house was nice and knowledgable. Too bad the product he had to install was crap). DirecTV breaking up with Tivo is like when Ike Turner tried to go solo after Tina left him.... all the magic is gone.

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Tivo vs Scientific Atlanta 8300HD
Dec 1, 2006 11:08PM PST

I have a standard low-def TIVO and HD SA box on Cox Cable...

Advantages of the Scientific Atlanta box:
1. You eliminate the need to pay the $700.00 fee to purchase the box. The monthly 8300HD rental fee and monthly TIVO charge is about the same.
2. The HD playback quality is superb; can't tell the difference whether it's live or "memorex"..and I can record 2 shows at the same time.
Disadvantages of the Scientific Atlanta Box;
1. Speeding through commercials, the HD8300 does not have the TIVO's automatic roll back to compensate for overshooting the beginning of the show at the end of the commericial.
2. Virtually no useful search capability and unintelligent pre-planned record capability. Although I may tell it to record "The Nine", it will record the replacement show in that time slot.
3. As reported here, there is a bad software flaw that shuts down delayed playback of a show when the recorder completes the recording of the show. You then have to restart the whole playback from the beginning and catch up to the point it dropped out.

I'm surprised Scientific Atlanta has not corrected these obvious problems. TIVO's upfront charge is a real negative.

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how to prevent the stopped playback when the show ends.
Dec 6, 2006 4:49AM PST

this bugged me for the longest time until one day i stumbled onto the solution.

wait until the show begins then go into the list of recorded shows and select the show, you will have the option to "play from beginning". if you use that option it won't stop playback when the show ends.

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I had the SI 8300HD
Jan 30, 2007 12:47AM PST

and recently purchased the HD 250 Tivo. I was amazed that the Tivo has a much better HD picture.. I didn't know it could get better.

I started Tivo in 2001 and dropped it when I got my Plasma 2 years ago. The search features were sorely missed, and I'm so happy now. Happy

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(NT) TiVo.
Dec 1, 2006 11:17PM PST
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Have to side against the TiVo
Dec 3, 2006 11:05AM PST

I have a Scientific Atlanta box, and I'm quite happy with it.

I agree that the TiVo may have some benefits in the user interface area but, right now:
1) I only have to pay about 5 bucks per month above what I would be paying for a non DVR box. Also, no high initial investment. Even if the series 3 were available, they would be 800 or so.
2) I can record up to 2 HD channels at the same time, right now.
3) Even if I were to buy a series 3 when they come out, I couldn't use it. My local cable provider (Cox) doesn't support CableCard in this market.
4) No worries if the box up and dies. If I have problems, or want to upgrade, I just bring it back to the office, and the nice ladies behind the counter give me a new one. No problems.

Ultimately, I think that TiVo will be forced to license their software to Scientific Atlanta (now owned by Cisco) Motorola, and the other providers. My crystal ball tells me that the Series 3 will not be a huge success, and they will either have to license their software, or end up going belly up and selling their IP as part of the bankrupcy.

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Tivo smokes Cable DVR's, but ............
Dec 4, 2006 1:49AM PST

There is no question that Tivo operating system smokes Cable DVR's. I have Tivo (non HD) and Comcast HD-DVR, and the Comcast software is a joke compared to Tivo. However, for less than the monthly Tivo subscription I can have the cable box as well included, and since it's rented, if it ever craps out, I just get a new one. While the Tivo box is great, I won't be buying the TivoHD box anytime soon. I must not be as wealthy as some of you, because there is no way I'm going to plop down $800 for a Tivo just because the operating system is better and more convenient. I bought my first tivo because it was only about $200. Even with the $200 lifetime subscription that still wasn't too bad. If Tivo wouldn't be so greedy, there wouldn't even be a discussion. If their box was $200, this forum topic wouldn't even exist. I doubt the cable companies could even compete with that, and if they did I can assure you the products would be MUCH better.

Come on Tivo! Stop being so greedy and make your product affordable. Stop trying to gouge us and we will remain loyal customers. We won't be gouged just because your product is superior. Ever heard of Beta recording tapes!? Continue getting greedier and greedier and watch your company go into bankruptcy. When will companies ever learn. Tivo could easily sell 10 times more boxes at $200 than they will selling them for $800. That would be $2000 in sales versus $800. It's this little thing called VOLUME. Everybody wins.

If Tivo were the only game in town, then they might be able to get away with charging $800 a box, but since the Cable companies are basically giving their DVR's away for free, then I can't imagine but only a few idiots (or wealthy, or wealthy idiots) that would pay that much for a DVR, even if it is a superior DVR!

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TiVo is not greedy
Dec 6, 2006 10:05PM PST

Not any more gredy than any other for-profit company--they are in the business to make money. We shouldn't be begrudge them for that. TiVo simply has a flawed business model. People call them greedy because they love the TiVo experience but can't stomach the cost. Unfortunately, $200 wouldn't cover the cost of the hardware for the Series3, let alone the costs of software/hardware R&D. Don't they have the right to make $?