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General discussion

tired of 1080P?

by HTsales82 / August 15, 2006 5:20 PM PDT

Trying to justify 1080p? It's worth it if you want a trophy or if you like bragging rights. other wise it is a scam. Blu-Ray probably will fail, but hd-dvd discs are made in 1080p, however; the movie industrie will NEVER give you enough detail to take advantage of that resolution, it would show too much make up and show too much of the cheap backgrounds. The only thing that it would actually be good for would be sports or things on the discovery channel which of course are on broadcast TV which won't be 1080p anytime soon if at all ever. Being that just about every signal coming in the TV has to be upconverted, 1080p tv's will be worse with just about every signal with more detail loss/blurr and more motion blurr. I am in HT sales and it pisses me off with every new 1080p set that comes out. There are a few people I work with that know what's up as well, but unfortunately most people think a bigger number is always better. Bottom line, if a company makes 2 tv's with everything exactly the same except 1 with 1080p and one with 720p, the 720p set will look better with almost every signal available today. If you can imagine 2 cars, one with a 7 cylindar engine (720p) and one with an 11 cylindar engine (1080p) then you test the cars, first by running only 7 cylindars on each (720p) then only running 5 cylindars at once (1080I) which car do you think would perform better. Do any other sales people out there feel like they have to work harder to defend their beliefs against popular belief than they do to just find the right tv for the customer? Personally I am getting incredibly fatigued having to constantly prove myself to every customer so they will believe I am telling them the truth as upposed to so many other people who lie just because it gets them more money, and after 3.5 yrs. full time in HT I can't help feeling like the end is near for my HT career and it's all because of this stupid 1080p that I have seen with my own eyes to look worse even though it is more expensive. I just wish there was someone else out there that gave a damn that would stand up and say enough is enough, profit isn't everything. Anyone else feel this way?

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more to come possibly
by sirroundsound / August 15, 2006 11:31 PM PDT
In reply to: tired of 1080P?

with HDMI 1.3 coming, we could go to 1440p....

Not sure what your complaining about, if you are not interested in making a living in retail sales, then your right, now would be a good time to get out.

Selling a good 1080p set is the right thing to do.

There will always be something better coming down the road. Just look at surround systems. Way, way back there were only 4 channels. Then along came "pro logic" which quickly got better with each new model. Then digital pro logic, then dolby digital, DTS etc etc. Now we have 6.1, 7.1, 9.1 systems that allow us to sell more speakers. Not much material out there that is really in 7.1 surround.

Don't kid yourself, 1080p will get used. as we move towards ip based systems and delivery the choices will increase, and the fight for our entertainment dollars will really begin.

If you work in a shop that sells computers too, do you still sell people systems without dual core processors? Bad, bad, bad... can't operated windows vista without a dual core, so you would be forcing these people to upgrade sooner than they may have wanted to.

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by HTsales82 / August 16, 2006 5:33 AM PDT
In reply to: more to come possibly

let's bring out a 1080p capable broadcast system, then worry about the tv's, or how about if we get all digital first! All digital probably won't even happen before a 1080p bought today gets replaced

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Great sets
by Pakman3000 / August 16, 2006 12:48 AM PDT
In reply to: tired of 1080P?

I think 1080p is a great way to future proof for the upcoming champion of the format wars. I don't know about you but we get excited at my store when unpackaging a new 1080p set. We sold 2 Sony XBR2s just by unveiling them. That's $4300 apiece just by getting our display model from the warehouse! I've only been in HT sales a short time but in my opinion the 1080p sets look better. Customers agree also without knowing that they are 1080p sets. Aside from that, 1080p isn't the problem. People come in and ask what the difference is between LCD and plasma ALL DAMN DAY! Not once does resolution come up unless they know about it or saw it on cnet! That's just what I've seen in my short tenure in HT sales.

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no longer in retail, but..
by sirroundsound / August 16, 2006 1:30 AM PDT
In reply to: Great sets

For those out there in the retail side of this business, when new product arrives, it should feel just like christmas (or insert other gift giving holiday here).
You get to play with new toys, this business is supposed to be FUN.
Yes you will forever have to deal with people asking what is the difference between A and B, that will never go away, there will always be things to compare one to another.
Just make sure you always, always, continue to educate yourselves and know the right answers. Play with the gear, get involved in hooking it all up so you understand everything about what you are selling. Then look and listen to lots of different combinations of gear. You will always find a favorite package, and will be able to sell tons of them because it's the set up you love.
Remember - have fun, it's just toys....

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parts of a better picture
by HTsales82 / August 16, 2006 6:22 AM PDT
In reply to: Great sets

you have to ask yourself what makes a better picture. Is it brightness? contrast ratio? number of colors? or detail? Everything except for detail have nothing to do with the resolution. In other words, if sony made a tv as good as their sxrd with a 720P resolution, it would look better on alost all signal. And in fact they did! When we brough out our new SXRD, nobody even knew it was new because it looked so much like the previous years ex model. However, when we hooked up an antenna a got a digital non-HD signal the difference was very apparent and we found that the SXRD looks terrible with a non HD signal. But thats why sony made their a10 model look worse, that way their 1080P model looks better.

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Your tired of F.U.D.
by jcrobso / August 16, 2006 4:22 AM PDT
In reply to: tired of 1080P?

There is a lot FUD about 1080p. There have been postings, complaints that this or that set dosen't have "true" 1080p input, then you find out they are talking about 720p set.
Many times the term upconverting is incorectly used for changing 1080i to 1080p, when deinterlace is the correct term.
The problem is quality source material, it may look good at 720p, but not so good on a 1080i/p set. Just the way SD video may not look so good on a HD set.
I realy doubt that most people could see the difference between 720p and 1080i, let alone 1080i vrs 1080p.
When the State of the Union broadcast was on, I switched between CBS(1080i), ABC (720p), and NBC (1080i). My CRT-RP will has 720p and 1080i native display modes.
IT WAS VERY HARD TO TELL THE DIFFERENCE!! This was allmost a static image.
I'm sure you going nuts on this stuff. John

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by HTsales82 / August 16, 2006 5:36 AM PDT
In reply to: Your tired of F.U.D.

so I guess nobody else cares that the consumer will pay more money for a lower quality picture with a sources they use and the shows they watch, in other words who cares if they get screwed as long as specs get higher and higher. thats exactly the attitude I hate, that's the attitude that makes consumers distrust sales people. The right tv is was looks best with what people are watching not whatever is the newest.

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you need to realize
by masterying01 / August 16, 2006 7:14 AM PDT
In reply to: tired of 1080P?

an average comsumer is not knowledgeable enough to make a decision on purchasing a tv if you just show him a tv and a price tag. he or she will need something to compare it with. and in order for companies to attract more customers towards their products, they will make the "numbers" on their products bigger and badder.

if you are in retail(rather comission or not), your job is to help that consumer find the right thing for their needs. it is not your job to argue with customers because they think the sony 50xbr1 looks better then the samsung HLS5086.

i agree that numbers arent everything. 1080p doesnt always mean the tv will look better. HD doesnt always mean the picture will look better (maxent and hp plasma's vs. panasonic's EDTV). a 11MP point and shoot camera doesnt mean the pictures will always be better then a 5MP SLR. but when customers come in thinking the higher number is always the better, it is not your job to argue with the customer...its your job to get them what they want...thats retail.

if a guy wearing a rolex with 3 kids and a wife asking about getting a tv for his boat....obviously i'm not going to bring him to our low end $1000 plasma's because its only for a boat that he'll be on once a year. pioneer would be my first choice..why? cause i make the most money on it, its much lighter then some other tvs which makes it much easier to hang (ever tried hanging the new 50 philips plasma with ambient light?) and it'll give you the best picture quality.

if you have a heart and argues with customers when they want to look at something that they dont need....get out of retail. after your 3.5 years should have realized that already.

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missing some other points.
by sirroundsound / August 16, 2006 1:22 PM PDT
In reply to: you need to realize

We may not have much, if any 1080p available right now.
There may seem to be very little coming, BUT that doesn't mean over the next few years we won't start to see more and more.
Plenty of threads right here about Xbox HD and Sony PS HD both outputting 1080p.
You can bet the "media center" guru's are all very excited about HDMI 1.3 and what doors it opens for them.
Last time I checked, people don't buy TV's every few years, once they have laid out the few thousand $'s it takes to get something decent today, they don't want to be coming back in a couple of years saying the set you sold me doesn't do this or that.
So I wouldn't be too quick to start slamming 1080p as something you don't need, maybe to save a few dollars go to a 720p set, but the retail customer should at least be aware of what they can have and why they might want it.
That's your job if your on the sales floor....

In my side of the business I can loose a very good client by not informing him of what his options are, and that means major dollars out the window.
Even if I don't think he is the client that wants an 8,000.00 remote, I still have to show him the top and work our way down. I would loose all credibility if after his system was installed, he went to another home and saw a very cool touch screen remote, and came back asking me why he didn't have one like that. At least if I show him the options, he cannot come back and complain, all he can do is say he changed his mind and he wants one of those too.

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I prefer your approach...
by speleofool / August 17, 2006 8:40 AM PDT

Great story Sirround!

One of my pet peeves with retail folk, frankly, is being led to the cheap stuff immediately. I probably don't look like I've got much money, but then I don't try to look like that. My daily uniform is shorts, a t-shirt and Teva sandals. I like to joke that the money I save on clothes lets me afford other stuff, but the truth is that I'm good with finances and I spend my money on the things that are truly important to me. Those are the things I don't want to go cheap on.

I can understand the "take the Rolex guy to the expensive stuff," perhaps, but too often I find myself on the other end of that equation as "Sandal Boy" visiting the cheap junk, and sometimes it takes a while to get the point across that I'm looking for something more durable or with better features that costs more. Worse, I've been flat-out ignored (presumably as someone who must be browsing) at places like Magnolia HT. That's poor form and likely to lose my business.

I'm also very much an examine-all-the-options-and-pick-the-best-ones type. I'm sure it's related to being an engineer (gotta have all that data!), but the bottom line is that I'm most comfortable with my decisions when I know not only what I'm buying, but also what I'm not buying because it exceeds my needs.

Most importantly to this story, I'm someone who has spent close to $40k on HT gear and who is patient enough to not buy 1080p, HD-DVD or Blu-Ray yet because I know what I want and it's not quite there yet. I'm *very much* a planner and appreciate knowing not only about the options available today, but what's coming around the corner. I have a great relationship with the sales person who sold me my stuff and he's got no problem telling me not to buy stuff in the store because he knows what I want and that I'll be back when it's ready.


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Just good business...
by sirroundsound / August 17, 2006 11:02 AM PDT

When I was in retail I had a few customers like you, they learned quickly I knew what I was talking about, wasn't interested in BS, and would always listen to their needs, and direct them accordingly. They always came back to buy new things from ME.
It's all about the relationships you can make in this business. The dollars will take care of themselves.

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by mrobzo / August 22, 2006 1:20 AM PDT
In reply to: you need to realize

IF consumer dollars mean nothing to you, YOU should get out of the business!
When I go to a sales person, I expect to be educated, not taken.
Good thing I don't know who you are or where you work cause I would have you canned in a heartbeat.

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"When I go to a sales person, I expect to be educated"??????
by jcrobso / August 22, 2006 5:57 AM PDT
In reply to: Sick!

Yes it would be nice if the sales person was knowledgeable but this is NOT the case in most BB stores, there are exceptions, ( the one your ripping on is one of them, read some of his other posts) but in general most just are not trained in what they sell.
Most custom installers have more time and knowledge but there is a price for everything.
When I go into a store I try to avoid the sales persons.
I know what I want, usualy know where to find it. If sales person realy wants to help I ask a very difficult question to stump them,,,,,if they are wise they will just go away,,, if they answer with some bull fearthers answer,,,,well then they are fair game. I just picture that some of the BBY and CC guyes are cringing now, but in my old age I just polity correct them,,, but 30~40 years ago,,Ahh oh well, have nice day. John

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"When I go to a sales person, I expect to be educated"??????
by jcrobso / August 22, 2006 6:42 AM PDT
In reply to: Sick!

Yes it would be nice if the sales person was knowledgeable but this is NOT the case in most BB stores, there are exceptions, ( the one your ripping on is one of them, read some of his other posts) but in general most just are not trained in what they sell.
Most custom installers have more time and knowledge but there is a price for everything.
When I go into a store I try to avoid the sales persons.
I know what I want, usualy know where to find it. If sales person realy wants to help I ask a very difficult question to stump them,,,,,if they are wise they will just go away,,, if they answer with some bull fearthers answer,,,,well then they are fair game. I just picture that some of the BBY and CC guyes are cringing now, but in my old age I just polity correct them,,, but 30~40 years ago,,Ahh oh well, have nice day. John

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Be nice
by Pakman3000 / August 23, 2006 10:18 AM PDT

First off, people that come into stores to stump college kids are just sad individuals. Treat retail employees like people who prepare your food. Be nice! You may know more and have something to prove, but you can't get around paying $800-1500 above cost on some sets you buy as Joe Blow Consumer. Cables have margin on em too! Be nice to the person helping you and they may cut you a deal. If I'm helping you, being a ***** won't get you far. Nothing against you John, just a little advice to others.

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i dont want to start an arguement...but...
by masterying01 / August 22, 2006 10:21 AM PDT
In reply to: Sick!

if i am in sales, that is what i do...i try to sale. i am not there to help you manage your money and i am not an accountant.

my job is to put value into the products you are looking at and at the end...its your job as a consumer to decide if you want it or not. my job is to show you the possibilities...and if you decide that a pioneer elite plasma is worth the $5000, obviously i'm not going to stop you and show you a panasonic edtv.

retail is about making money. schools are for getting education. i'm not saying i dont educate customers, but at the end...i will not spend 60 minutes educating you on each technology when i see a customer with his checkbook in his pocket looking at a $5000 tv. its retail. my job is to offer products and sell based on a customer's lifestyle.....not to give a Hometheater101 course to every customer that comes in.

btw, no SMART RETAILER will cann their employees for trying to sell stuff...instead of just talking to customers all day and educating them so they can go somewhere else.

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"Hometheater101 course to every customer that comes in."
by jcrobso / August 23, 2006 3:14 AM PDT

Most salesmen aren't paid enought to do this.
The only thing I ask is that they use techinal terms correctly. The store should give some traing as to what the specs realy mean. Some store do, but many don't.
So it tends to be a buyer beware.
Salesmen like Masterying01 are the excption, sadly. John

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Buyer beware
by sirroundsound / August 23, 2006 3:51 AM PDT

As the consumer you need to shop with caution. Expecting to be educated can be a losing proposition.
Unless you are planning a large and expensive system, and dealing with a reputable firm, your education may end up being a lot of mis information. Look around web sites like this, people being told they have to re fill a plasma and many other foolish tales.
The old saying... you get what you pay for is true always.

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No argument, it just didn't sound right.
by mrobzo / August 23, 2006 10:55 AM PDT

If a salesman earns my trust, I will pay more just for the fact that I know he won't rip me off. I know that is not the case with all joe blow consumers as you call them. I still hope that you don't work in a store near me. Good luck and best of profits.

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Educated, and taken...
by sirroundsound / August 22, 2006 10:26 AM PDT
In reply to: Sick!

Sadly, one can lead to another.

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Right on the money
by Pakman3000 / August 23, 2006 10:35 AM PDT
In reply to: Educated, and taken...

You are right on with that. For the guy who wanted to be educated, that's what cnet is for. When a customer comes in, I try to qualify them for a sale. If you're buying, lets talk. If you're not buying, but it's not busy, we can still talk and I'll be glad to walk from set to set and discuss things. If you're not buying and it is busy, I MUST excuse myself eventually but I will leave a favorable impression on you so when you come back to buy you come to my store.

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by mrobzo / August 23, 2006 11:02 AM PDT
In reply to: Right on the money

Mark me excused Sir! woof!

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Your opinion might be accurate for the here and now, but...
by stevemilleresq / August 18, 2006 11:56 PM PDT
In reply to: tired of 1080P?

What about people who are in the market now for a new hdtv? Sirroundsound has it right on this, I, for one and I'm sure many others want as much future-proof as possible.

I purchased my hdtv in 2001 and it essentially became obsolete by the end of 2002, with no HDMI or DVI and of course not 1080p. So for people in my position who might have wanted to get an upscaling dvd player for which most don't upscale on component or get either a blu-ray or hd-dvd player, we face the risk of not getting a full 1080i resolution (or as close as an upscaling dvd player will give). When upscaling dvd players came out and later as the hd-dvd formats were announced over the last few years, I made the decision to wait until my set fails to get a new one primarily because I found one of the few dvd players that upscale over component and more importantly, I'm very pleased with the pq (ISF calibrated by Kevin Miller) on both sd and hd programming.

However, I might be be in this position right now and if I'm going to spend perhaps $3k or more, I want the biggest bang for the buck, and for me that's comprised of the best possible pq for all programming, build quality (I want it to last as long as possible), and most future-proof (which includes flexibilty of input).

I think you might be making a valid point concerning sd programming, but wouldn't that depend on the tv's ability to upconvert sd to 1080p? Also, I don't think most people are going to expect a standard def signal to provide the same pq as a true hd signal. At least not me. And for me, concerning pq the question is which 1080p hdtv will provide the best pq on both hd and sd programming.

The decision may very well be a compromise, and I probably would trade a little hd pq for terrific sd pq while factoring in the other concerns I have. You would be best serving your customers by figuring out which models you sell that will accomplish all this and giving your customers the best possible advice, which might possibly include educating some of them.

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Future Proof
by perform23 / August 19, 2006 10:39 AM PDT

I would also like to be future proof. I am almost ready to purchase a Hitachi RPLCD 60VG825. 1080p aside, the set looks amazing. However they talk about Virtual 1080p, what's that all about? Will it or will it not be capable of 1080p when/if we receive a broadcast in that format?

VirtualHD? 1080p II:
When content from film is sent to your home it requires processing that can cause picture noise or distortion. VirtualHD? technology reduces this noise to a minimum, recreating the smooth curves and high fidelity image of the original film source. An advanced technique, dynamic histogram processing, digitally maps the incoming signal to optimize on screen contrast, color and sharpness.

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I like future proof, for the money
by mrobzo / August 23, 2006 11:18 AM PDT
In reply to: Future Proof

About 5 years ago I paid 5G for 480i 720P 1080i. Now the extended warrantee is out and I can barely see the screen it is so dim. Oh! They forgot to tell me that the bulb burns out quickly in those models. Yep all future proofed. What a hustle!
How about that receiver that has ieee811b now that they have sat radio. Yep! Future proofed again. Don't let anyone talk you into 1080P. It will die before they have media for it. And don't future proof me again!

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tired of 1080P?
by jcrobso / August 26, 2006 2:35 PM PDT
In reply to: tired of 1080P?

I'm on vacation in Tennessee, My wife wanted to do some shopping, there is a store call "hhgregg", yes thats the name. This is a very nice electronics store, the best display of HDTVs I've seen and I'm not easy to impress.
They did have a B-Ray hooked up to 46" JVC 1080p plasma,
Yes it was as Stew would say "it was jaw dropping".
Was the picture better than the 1080i Dish feed, yes. What does this prove,,,,, the Dish feed even though it's 1080i there is a lot of compression/decompression in the Dish feed. The B-Ray demo has very little compression of the video stream.
I would like to see thew B-Ray demoed on a 720p and a 1080i and 1080p at the same time.
In a year or two HDTVs will be 720p or 1080p. But the very high quality will not be realised untill the HD-DVD or B-Ray wars are over and the winner cost $200 or less.
Future prof is the best reason to buy a 1080p today. But they will cost less next year. John

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Changed my mind, bought a Sony!
by perform23 / August 27, 2006 3:28 AM PDT
In reply to: tired of 1080P?

The Hitachi that I wanted ended up not being available anywhere. Long story short...I ended up getting a good deal on the new Sony KDS60A2000 60? SXRD. I paid a bit more than I would have had to pay with the Hitachi, but it does have 1080P.

I am awaiting delivery and if anyone is curious, I will post my thoughts on it once I get it setup.

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I am curious
by husni.nm / September 27, 2006 7:41 AM PDT

Please let me know how the set looks, especially with standard programming. I am about to purchase the same HDTV but I'm also looking at the Pioneer PDP-5070HD plasma. Thank you.

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I got the Sony too!
by bevillan / September 27, 2006 8:05 AM PDT

My 50A2000 Sony SXRD tv came in the mail a few days ago and I love it. For the picture quality and price, you cannot beat the SXRD least the A2000 series.

I almost got a Pioneer plasma, but I am afraid of burn-in since I play video games a good bit and the price of the SXRD could not have been beaten by any plasma with the same size and picture quality.

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How does Sony look on SD?
by Dan Filice / September 27, 2006 8:24 AM PDT
In reply to: I got the Sony too!


How does the Sony look when viewing SD cable? One day, when my trusty Toshiba RPTV dies (I hope it never does), I will probably go the Sony SXRD direction. But I was curious if you had a chance to view SD channels on the 1080p set? I was going to ask if it looked different than a 720p or 1080i set on SD, but I'm figuring you moved directly into the Sony from an old CRT so comparing wouldn't be possible.

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