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This poll states what I we talked about here..

by Glenda / April 6, 2005 4:53 AM PDT
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Parents are never happy with their kids education.
by Ziks511 / April 7, 2005 11:57 PM PDT

Mine used to complain about how shallow my education had been relative to theirs, they just didn't recognize all the other information about life in the world over the intervening 30 years we were picking up. My wife, as mentioned before is younger than I and had a different curriculum in school which cared little for history, even American History. I grew up as a History junkie, with a good curriculum that supported that. Consequently I have been less than kind occasionally when I come across some yawning gulf in her education. And that's two people 4 years apart in the same State.

Is my child prepared for the real world, No; will he cope with it when he takes his gap year in order to afford University, Yes.

I knew a man who grew up on a farm in the midwest. Went all the way to grade 8 which he completed at about 11 years of age because he was smart. Went back to work on the farm, joined the Army and fought across North Africa and Italy. When he returned home he started working on cranes for construction and finished up as a Crane Operator, which meant he was earning pretty good money. Was he better prepared for life at age 11 than kids are at 17, I doubt it, but he had safer more secure choices initially, and grew into his life. 17 year olds will do the same.

Rob Boyter

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Specific examples, Rob:

School curricula teach kids to solve quadratic equations (assuming they're bright), but not to balance a checkbook or use credit wisely.

-- Dave K, Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!

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The schools also
by Glenda / April 8, 2005 2:35 AM PDT

are not teaching these kids to be responsible in getting their school work done and to achieve! They pass them on to the next grade even if they are incapable of doing the work:( What boss is going to put up with these lazy kids?

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Glenda, 'social promotion' is supposed to be a no-no
by Dave Konkel [Moderator] / April 8, 2005 5:09 AM PDT
In reply to: The schools also

under Bush's "No Child Left Behind" program.

-- Dave K, Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!

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IMO.......
by Glenda / April 8, 2005 5:32 AM PDT

That means Teachers should do the job they are paid for and make sure that the kids in their classes can do the work

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What boss is going to put up with these lazy kids?
by Chorus-Line A1-QMS / April 9, 2005 11:34 PM PDT
In reply to: The schools also

Do you honestly think that laziness is inherent of children?

Any individual is capable of being lazy. There are ?why?s? that causes it to be so.

But I find children are the greatest of all ?imitators?


CL

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My take, DaveK
by Angeline Booher / April 8, 2005 5:28 AM PDT

I learned...

... how to write a check in a 10th grade course called "Commercial Law". From the course I also gained invaluable lessons in contracting. There was not so much a demand for credit in those days. Happy

When I opened my first checking account, a clerk at the bank showed me how to balance it.

However, IMO a child is taught good credit habits at home. I don't have a lot of sympathy for parents who give their college-bound child a credit card that does not have set limits. Mine went to an out-of-state college, and we mailed them a check every week. The credit card was to be used only for emergencies, like car trouble. Thus they never looked upon the card as
plastic money". At that time there was a special collegian-to-parent long distance phone rate. So when things came up like dues, a tux rental, an unanticipated required text book, etc., they phoned us, and we sent an extra check.

You better believe they learned how to live on a budget!

IMO, those who are not taught at home or somewhere else along the way, should be able to read "how-to".

Angeline


click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

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That certainly is not true down here.
by Jerry562 / April 9, 2005 1:06 AM PDT

My daughter had classes that covered all of that including how to use and write checks including the register. They have been added many years ago.

The easiest thing they had a few years after I graduated was Senior Math.

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Schools
by Chorus-Line A1-QMS / April 9, 2005 11:25 PM PDT

A school teaches the basic principles. There are levels of advancement -- graduating from elementary to high school -- high school to college or Uni -- Uni to acquiring Master's degree. But to sum it all up, it is still learning the basic principles.

The foundation of all these "basics" learned in school is generally applied in every day life (some may not even be aware of it), whether personal, work or business which is called "hands on training? pretty much known as ?Experience? found in the individual?s CV or Resume.

The more the individual learns, the more they master their trade -- likely you'll be looking at "Promotion".

The basics, intermediate and advanced phase of human's accomplishments -- Progress, Success and the greatest of all --- the "EGO". Happy


CL

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Never say never :-)
by Angeline Booher / April 8, 2005 5:06 AM PDT

We believed that success in any field could be dependent on English skills in reading, grammar, and writing. Thus it was very important to us that our kids attended a school that offered good classes and a solid core curriculum.

The school we chose fit the bill.

I have to say that, yes, it did have a part in preparing them for the real world. We taught them respect for authority and taking responsibility, and the school did the same, as well.

It was not a public school. We did without a lot to send them there. Our choice, and it paid off.

From what I've seen and heard, the teachers in the public schools have been saddled with duties that can interfere with what they are educated and devoted.

Angeline


click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

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The title intrigues me
by Chorus-Line A1-QMS / April 10, 2005 5:12 AM PDT

?Parents are never happy with their kid?s education.?


I hope this is not a statistical fact. I feel so dispirited to see or hear of such parents.

Every time I hear of parents who talks about their children?s accomplishments, significantly big or relatively small and I don?t care what kind of accomplishments it may be (something I may even disagree about) --- it?s still music to my ears knowing how proud they are about their children. And when I hear the contrary, I walk away in dismay and mumble to myself and say, ?No wonder!? Often, I see parents insist upon their children what they ?should? major in___. Rarely, do I see them asked, ?What is it that you think you are good at and what do you think you?ll probably enjoy doing long-term wise?? Squeeze in few suggestions, possible options, talk about what are the current hype in the job market, talk about projections say 5 years from now, what are jobs that are likely to remain in demand, jobs that will require ongoing continuing education, etc.

Few days ago, during a cross examination of a teen who was physically disabled by a car accident was asked by the examining lawyer, ?What profession would like to be prior to this accident? The boy responded, ?A truck driver?. Immediately, I saw the look, somewhat a strange facial expression beneath the mask of some people present in the room as if, ?You can dream something better than that?. Here, I was thinking to myself, if he is good at it and know the business well ? he?ll likely to succeed as the owner/operator than just a truck driver that some people look down upon.

He was asked again, ?What is it that you think you can do now or would like to do?? The boy responded, ?It all depends on how much I will get from this lawsuit to start my own business?.

I can?t help but smiled some smart kid I thought.


cl

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Political Correctness Glenda
by Jerry562 / April 8, 2005 4:53 AM PDT

Schools don't maintain a standard and teach people how to reach it, the lower the standard to the dumbest kid in the school and it's usually someone that can't even speak English.

My daughter went from the first to High School graduation without ever bring a book home and maintained a B average on common sense.

I think they are learning how to survive among violent criminals, and many are losing.

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I am not one of the PC crowd
by Glenda / April 8, 2005 5:37 AM PDT

I think it's time these kids learned the merits of actually doing the work for the credits they receive
What happened to raising the standards so our kids would learn the benefit of work?

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No arguement here. I taught
by Jerry562 / April 8, 2005 11:03 AM PDT

school as a Navy Instructor and I found that kids were hungry as heck for the knowledge I could give them. They used me up, and I loved it. The only difference was, we had class control because the punks were out here with you civilians. When the faster ones cruised, I poured it on, the slower ones had to get help and do more work or suffered because they were going to be left behind at advancement time, and they knew it. We let them solve it and they did. The most I did for slow ones was to make sure the solution was available and visable.

All challenges in life are unfair to someone, people with long legs run faster and people with shorter gates have to pick them up and put them down faster to keep up. When I was in my first few Military schools, I had the Wife and child plug earphones into the TV so I could out-study the smarter ones. I put much more effort in to join the cream at the top. The whole family benefited when I advanced. I was thankful to them, they were proud of me.

These were the same 18 year old kids that were searched going into civilian schools and made rude noises in class, treated differently under a different set of rules. PC Liberals has ruined all the civilian teachers authority IM(not so)HO. I wouldn't take that job.

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What defines the Real World?
by Chorus-Line A1-QMS / April 9, 2005 1:45 AM PDT

Great polling question Happy but cannot be simplified by a yes or no answer given the geographical and innumerable societal issues that may contribute to the decline or success of these children?s future.

Where do these kids live? The neighboring environment plays an important factor. Which school do they attend and what reputation and teaching credentials does the school holds?

What influences their learning abilities and social activities? From whom, how much, and what is involved? These are just few more questions to consider.

And now slicing your question into three parts.

Preparedness
At one point in a child?s life, somebody has to prepare the kid into an ongoing journey of discoveries. It may be from a Single-Parent Family, Nuclear Family, Extended Family, and the Blended Family, an Adopted Family, Foster Family or living in the orphanage homes. How much encouragement, love, motivation, and support a child receives from these types of family arrangement pretty much answers whether there is a sturdy foundation to a foreseeable optimistic future. Evidently, there is no such thing as a perfect family. So with this to say, what conditions a child?s current outlooks in life entirely depends on the level of tolerance against stressful encounters in which often they find difficult to understand.

The Real World
I am sure everyone defines the real world differently. In my opinion, it has numerous dimensions with its corresponding counter parallels. Somewhat an adventure, seemingly an open invitation, sometimes trapped for a moment learning the hard ways especially when B.S. happens and other times, life all works smoothly. I would think that a child will have tremendous amount of difficulties challenging the real world without the proper guidance (shared knowledge, information, ethical and moral beliefs and awareness) from their guardians (a role model).

Education
Education is an investment from day one a child starts school up to the highest pursuit of learning which he was able to maintain in his life. Learning is never ending ? in order to keep up with the phase and up against competitive job market. Although tuitions fees, other fees, books and other materials required to complete his studies are increasingly high in these days, there is no excuse to say that one cannot afford it because there are grants, scholarships, student loans, and other government assisted programs. But the real world sometimes can be goofy. Some piece of paper (certificate or diploma) may not at all be too relevant because it is whom you know gets you the job or perhaps years of experiences, or the flexibility and the eloquence of persuasive sales pitch and personality presentation.

We are living in a world full of entertainment and vices, almost too easy to drown in it which hinders a child or even the adult?s priorities in life. Both parents today are often away from long hours of work in order to meet ends and thereby children (the latch-key kids) are often left with minimal guidance, sometimes almost none existence.

It is my belief that a child?s success in venturing into the real world after all the studying depends so much on the timeline of his upbringings such as how much self-confidence, self-discipline, self-esteem has he acquired and adopted. Nevertheless, a child has more time on his hand to recover and correct his failures (if) while adults (oldies to be specific) regret the time that he has wasted most of which can?t be undone. A famous phrase ? ?I wish I had done so and so when I was your age?.


CL

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From an "oldie"
by Angeline Booher / April 10, 2005 1:20 AM PDT

There have always been poor parenting, poverty, bullies, gross disappointments, "unfairness", and the smartest and slowest kid in the class.

IMO, "want" has taken on a different perspective. It was formerly relegated to identify needs, but now has taken on the connotation of "I want that" Though patience has been called a virtue, few of us have that virtue. We don't like to wait in line, wait to buy material goods until we can afford them, or wait our turn. The name of the game is "instant gratification".

Along the way respect for authority has declined, along with acceptance of personal responsibility. There seems to always be someone else to blame.

As for students, those who enter college or the trades will get an introduction into the world. They will have to get themselves up in the morning, for starters. They are still faced with the fact that like minds gather together. They may further experience that it is not automatic that others will like them, and hopefully realize that much of what others think of them depends on themselves and how they treat others.

The workplace can be a shock. The boss expects us to have projects completed on time, dress appropriately, to be dependable, to arrive on time, etc. The old excuses ("My dog ate my homework") won't work. Mom or Dad will not be welcome to go to the boss and fight for your "individuality" or charge "unfairness" when we are passed over for promotion.

As an "oldie", I don't feel it is the responsibility of our schools to build self-esteem, only to not tear it down. I don't consider the schools as the place to have to put up with teachers being attacked, verbally or physically, nor to have their classes disrupted by students. I feel their job may be made harder in that some students are either near or at the age of legal "adulthood". IMO, in the past it was said that students lived under the fear of The Bomb. I think that facing adulthood at what I consider a tender age would have frightened me. I recall how much "growing up" I did in 3 years.

To summarize, I think that facing that obscure real world requires respect for authority and laws, and acceptance of personal responsibility. Ideally these are learned in the home. The schools used to be able to demand and foster both, but I think this has now been stripped from them.

Even with ideal situations, I think that not everybody will succeed. That has been true in the best of times, and the worse of times. (OK- I'll say it- "Life is not always fair".)

Angeline


click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

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Outstanding Post!
by Evie / April 10, 2005 5:58 AM PDT
In reply to: From an "oldie"

It can be argued the causes of the breakdown, but somewhere along the way, parenting and schooling have been both confused (as in teachers having to parent) and separated (as in parents not working with teachers).

Evie Happy

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From the "generation gap"...
by Chorus-Line A1-QMS / April 10, 2005 1:13 PM PDT
In reply to: From an "oldie"

Thank you for sharing your thoughts. But I have to disagree with some of your opinions by referring respectively to the following paragraphs and my corresponding opinions:

Paragraph #2
Carl Sandburg quoted: ?Nothing happens unless first a dream.? And while some people dream of success... the others wake up and work hard at it. I really don?t have to wait in line if it is a matter of urgency, all I need to do is asked, ?May I because??? And ?May I again if you would please??? . If they say, ?Ok?, then wow, thank you?if not?then wait in line like everybody else. I?d grab a magazine, anything I can get my hands on to divert my mind from the anticipation of watching how slow the line is moving.

Paragraph #3
Authority is such a big, bold, intimidating and powerful word. It?s an idea of being the *good guys* who?s suppose to keep things in order. When these so called authorities start behaving contrary to their duties, violating their own rules, I do not see how one can expect respect. It gets worst when they start threatening you with ?or else?. Their badge of authority means nothing to me. I tell kids to respect and trust the laws (rules) for there is justice in it; it is that of those in authority I often have to question whether respect is due upon them. Should there be any signs of corruptions ? I encourage them to SPEAK OUT strongly for their voice is far stronger than adults and they are less corrupted from the lack of experience.

The person can?t just go about telling people what is wrong unless he corrects his own actions. That to me is called responsibility. Blaming is an old habit in the book (cause and effect of chaos). It?s just another fact of life; basically, it?s all about the losers and the winners, heroes and foes.

Paragraph #4
I?ve seen these scenes before in fact many times. And to add, it isn?t so much of how one threats others, as long as there is a label associated with race, religion, political correctness etc., prejudices will play out its role.

Paragraph #5
It a simple basic fact of undergoing interviews and screening and yes there is a high degree of expectation. After all they?re hired and paid to do the job efficiently and productively. It bugs me to see employees come to work only to complete their 8 hrs., a lot of times spend on chit-chatting, idling and smoky break, lethargic, lacking passion and dedication of their work, certainly not an asset but a liability. Government employees are the best example of these scenes. Job listings are aired throughout the city for formality sake, while in fact the position is reserved for a certain candidate already inside. Blah! Jim Rohn quoted: ?Whoever renders service to many puts himself in line for greatness - great wealth, great return, great satisfaction, great reputation, and great joy."

Paragraph #5
I would have to differ, in addition, I did not realize that your prior definition of responsibility is selective until after reading this paragraph. To be honest, what you said is exactly part of the problem I see of some schools and their instructors ? lack of patience (what happen?) to teach, motivate students, lack of concerns if there?s anything troubling them that may need further attention to notify the guidance counselor of the school and eventually the parents. I believe that everyone has a responsibility greater than himself wherever they are and whatever they?re doing. Another words of wisdom, Woodrow Wilson quoted: ?We are not here merely to make a living. We are here to enrich the world.? -- I use this quote specifically to benefit the youths ? the future leaders of tomorrow in which success depend on the backbone and not on the wishbone.

Paragraph #7 & #8
When life is not fair, it only means you?re in the wrong place, wrong time and with the wrong people. And I hear you on ?Life is not always fair?.


?And I love my dearest Grandmother, may she be resting in peace, my parents of course. I don?t consider them authoritarian instead more of a friend, their wisdom and approach in dealing with me and my siblings deserve more than a respect. Authoritative approach may work well 20, 30, 40, 50 years ago, in this modern age --- it is highly ineffective. People nowadays are far too smart to buy into the fear tactics.


CL

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And that in a nutshell ...
by Evie / April 10, 2005 10:28 PM PDT

... is why the education system is such a mess. Respect for authority should not be a "dirty word". Without it you have the free-for-all we have now. No wonder the best in their fields don't want to go into teaching because they don't want to have to instill respect the parents were supposed to. And the schools are so rife with incompetence as a result that it's no wonder the parents (as demonstrated by not even showing up to vote when education referenda are on the ballot) don't think it is worth their bother anymore. Vicious cycle.

Kids shouldn't be speaking out in class ... period. A good teacher involves discussion where possible, but there are times when straight lecture is what is required. Order in the classroom is impossible if students aren't made to understand that they are EXPECTED to sit quietly through a class session, and it's NOT about what they feel like doing that matters. That expectation begins with the parents' teaching...

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In a nutshell...
by Chorus-Line A1-QMS / April 10, 2005 10:56 PM PDT

I'm pro children's rights. :)Why? Because I never had to face the problems what most children are facing today with the word "AUTHORITY" and my son agrees with me including many kids I had encounter and had helped make their life much tolerable in dealing with some of these "AUTHORITY" figures.

Teen suicide is *one* of the leading cause of death in North America.

If you read(with a broader understanding) my first post carefully, much of what you are saying - I have categorized them. Thanks for some of the repeats and your additional nay (to some degree of validity).


CL

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All I know ...
by Evie / April 10, 2005 11:59 PM PDT
In reply to: In a nutshell...

... is that those of my childhood friends that were "friends" with their parents, didn't amount to much. There are exceptions to every rule, and yes, at that time I liked their parents much better than mine so probably would agree with them.

As to children's rights, they don't have the same rights as adults because they also do not have the same responsibilities. The feel-good let's all be friends with our kids ideology has wreaked as much havoc upon children/society as the feel-good handouts did for generations of welfare dependents.

Kids that haven't learned that a parent or a teacher has authority over them and that the family or classroom is not the place to practice democracy, will be ill-equipped for the real world. Their first boss will NOT be their friend. They WILL have expectations. There WILL be rules in the workplace. Schools get funds from various sources (state, federal, benefactors) based on the number of pupils in the seats. So they put up with disrupters far more these days. Attendance and timeliness are let slide far more. Far too many "points" are earned just by showing up.

So in terms of the initial thread subject -- coping in the "real world" -- this kind of atmosphere doesn't exist in most jobs. If you are late or out sick too often, you'll be lucky to have a job. Just showing up and doing your job will earn you a paycheck, but good luck advancing. My husband sees this all the time with his subordinates that seem to think they are "God's gift" and ripe for promotion, but have shown no interest in learning skills for the next level (although it is no secret that this is how one gets ahead in the company).

My older students in a large class I have this semester often comment about the disruptive younger students (not all, but a contingent that is younger) that they will learn when they "get out in the real world" and probably regret wasting their education. The older students that pay their tuition, hold down jobs, are often married and many even with kids, know the importance of that education.

Given the attitudes of many of the college kids I see, it comes as no surprise to me that far too many of them are only able to get a job at Sears upon graduation. Too many haven't a clue what they want to do in life, which is nothing new really (I've often felt that far more should take a year or so between high school and college to figure that out). The difference is that they are coming out of high school without basic life skills. The attitude that passes for acceptable in our schools and colleges will not get them very far in life. Life, after all, is never fair. I first learned that lesson in the 2nd grade -- nowadays a parent would probably sue my 2nd grade teacher for what she put me through. Even if unsuccessful, the kid would learn the wrong lesson.

Teen suicide IS one of the leading causes of death in North America. But WAS it? I think we need to look into the effects of drugging our children into submission for this. Also the negative impacts of sexualizing our children too young. I don't think that the breakdown of authority in parenting and teaching can be blamed for this.

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Amen! Evie........
by Glenda / April 10, 2005 11:44 PM PDT

You just nailed it Happy

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The 'oldie' again
by Angeline Booher / April 11, 2005 2:53 AM PDT
#3The topic here applied to the education of students. In school the authority figure is the teacher and the principal. If a kid will not take his seat when asked, for instance, the teacher must spend time away from teaching, which deprives the rest of the class of learning time. Kids have to listen to the teacher, and pay attention to instructions.

IMO, if they feel that following instructions and obeying the teacher is not their cup of tea, they will not have respect for laws, their boss, their fellow workers.

#4 "Labeling" is inevitable. It is practiced by the groups you cited- they place the label on themselves, and carry it with pride. When you first came here you identified your religious preference, so you labeled yourself.

This must be distinguished, of course, from insulting nicknames, and from considering a group as being stupid, as we see in liberal vs. conservative.

The ideal would be for us to feel free to like or dislike individuals, regardless of their labels. Unfortunately, too often a person can be accused of racism, etc. for not liking an individual.

#5 Again - life is not fair. But I've been in my local and state seats of government, and have found the employees to be efficient and pleasant. The problems here, employee-wise, have been in DHS, where the workers are overwhelmed and under staffed. There also has been a lot of fraud re: food stamps, health care, welfare payments, etc.

There has long been cases of nepotism, favoritism, etc. However, those seeking employment often network.

On the flip side, a good employee who recommends the hiring of a person gets a feather in their cap as they show they recognize good material.

A couple of years ago I read an article re: how many think they were good employees. Not surprising that a large percentage of those who thought they were, actually not. (It is important for employers to keep very good records as often those who are let go later bring lawsuits.)

More #5 Yes, the school bears responsibility. But today they are saddled with stuff not their responsibility. If your school system is like the one here, it is top heavy with administrators, and much money is spent on them- a lot more than the teachers in the trenches. They are far removed from the action, and some have spent little, if any, time in those trenches.

# 6&7I disagree here. There are things over which a person has no control, like having cerebral palsy. But even then, many can overcome to an amazing degree, whatever unfortunate disability they have, whether mental or physical. IMO, being poor is no excuse. Out lottery money goes to scholarships for high school graduates with a B average. For those who do not, I still say that lack of income does not prevent one from obtaining educational loans. I realize that a person can need encouragement and "pushing" to do their best, even if it's not found in their home. There are many organizations who try - Boys Clubs, Girls Clubs, Scouting, the "Y', community centers, religious centers, etc. Getting them to participate is the hard part.

Last night there was a series on CNN about Hollenbeck in Los Angeles, where gangs hold the community hostage. As one member said, "If we didn't sell the drugs, somebody else would."

(Drugs are, IMO, the major reason why making progress is so tough.)

Respect for authority does not imply "fear tactics" that should be avoided by those who are "smart". Obeying parents because one knows the consequences is smart. Obeying the teacher is smart. Obeying the law is smart. Knowing there are consequences for our behavior is smart.

And common courtesy is timeless.

Angeline


click here to email semods4@yahoo.com
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Thank you
by Chorus-Line A1-QMS / April 11, 2005 7:30 AM PDT

all who responded to my sub thread.

It's nice to know everyone's voices (opinions) regarding their experiences about children venturing into the reality of life after schooling and other issues that have been added in the process of this discussion.

Part of my current job is to listen and document "people's troubles", a challenging job about what others have to face in this complex hmmm dome. Apart from being involved with the Children's Aid Society, an occasional visit to the Juvenile Ctr., I'm always around people and organizations that address the facts of life.

In any case, parents are frustrated, children mostly, even organizations that are involved. It's a tremendous task and responsibility in which none can guarantee happy endings. But with help available, it gives people hope.

Now I am off to cross the bridge to check out what?s going on the other side of the fence. At the end of the day and in between before my bedtime, my journal awaits the completion of my thoughts. Today?s image to draw, paint and write --- ?The Hunt for the Run Away Fathers? Wink

CL

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