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General discussion

This is what Jack Straw has to say about Spain's carnage ???

Mar 14, 2004 3:47PM PST
http://newsbox.msn.co.uk/article.aspx?as=article&f=uk_-_olgbtopnews&t=11881&id=16021&d=20040315&i=http://newsbox.msn.co.uk/mediaexportlive&ks=0&lc=en&ae=windows-1252

I am really sorry about this 13% - It makes me sick to think that such people live in my country

The poll also showed 73 percent of British Muslims are opposed to attacks by al Qaeda and other guerrilla organisations, but 13 percent say further attacks on the U.S. would be justified

I would personally like to round these people up and kick them back to where they came from - but that is further complicated by the fact that some of them were probably born here.
What a sick world we live in when people feel justified to kill thousands of innocent people - It just brings tears to my eyes.

Discussion is locked

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"sick world we live in when people feel justified to kill thousands of innocent people -"
Mar 14, 2004 8:45PM PST

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Steve, I guess it depends on who's doing the looking. We, Americans, feel justified in killing thousands of innocent people. So does your country.

Maybe it depends on the goal?

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Re: touche' ...nt
Mar 14, 2004 8:57PM PST

.

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The difference is simple
Mar 14, 2004 10:01PM PST

For Al Qaeda, killing thousands of innocent people IS the goal.

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Re:The difference is simple
Mar 15, 2004 12:50AM PST

And that is what makes their terrorism so horrific and at the same time possibly effective.

I'm afraid people will want to agree to applease the terrorists and hope that Al Qaeda will just leave them alone. But almost never do such tactics work, the bullies and terrorists will just demand more.

We can never forget that the radical Islamic fractions want to their religious rules to control the world as they interpret them and they're willing to kill everyone that disagrees.

RogerNC

click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

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Maybe if we punished the instigators, those false prophets, the Mullahs. {nt}
Mar 15, 2004 1:51AM PST

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You don't want to make martyrs out of them
Mar 15, 2004 2:38AM PST

While I agree that terrorists and their networks need to be snuffed out, we also must recognize the need to examine the roots of terrorism and attack it before it begins.

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And what are those roots of terrorism (in your opinion)?
Mar 15, 2004 3:07AM PST

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Re:And what are those roots of terrorism (in your opinion)?
Mar 15, 2004 3:23AM PST

Well part of it at least is the systems of government in many of the Arab countries, in which the poor are fated to remain that way. If you look at the breeding grounds for Al Qaeda terrorists (the "foot soldiers" as opposed to the leaders), they're usually in poorer sections of these countries. Mix a little poverty with a bit of anti-Israel and anti-US propaganda (make sure you blame the US and Israel for their poverty) and you've got some of the ingredients. Radical Islam teaches them that it's not their fault.

I'm no authority on this stuff and of course there's more to it than that, but that's some of it.

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Yep! That exactly right Josh - Their schools are the breeding ground for the hate towards us :( NT
Mar 15, 2004 4:16AM PST

NT

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Close to my thoughts too. [nt]
Mar 15, 2004 11:07AM PST

[nt]

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Re:You don't want to make martyrs out of them
Mar 17, 2004 8:27AM PST

hell let them all become martyrs cant kill youHappy

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That's an extremely good point Roger - Thanks NT
Mar 15, 2004 4:06AM PST

NT

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Re:Re:The difference is simple
Mar 17, 2004 8:26AM PST

well the french are good about thatGrin

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I cannot speak for every war but this last one was very carefully targeted so I wonder where all these thousands of casualties are coming from Rosalie ? NT
Mar 15, 2004 4:01AM PST

NT

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Re: I cannot speak for every war but this last one was very carefully targeted so I wonder where all these thousands of casualties are coming from Rosalie ? NT
Mar 15, 2004 4:28AM PST

Hi, Steve.

We (and you) are to be commended for doing our best to minimize collateral damage -- it's certainly much less than in other recent campaigns (including Bosnia). But that doesn't mean it's zero -- some weapons go astray, some important targets are intentionally positioned in civilian areas, and some secondary explosions occur that planners hadn't counted on. As of September, nearly 40,000 Iraqi civilians had died (that's from all war-related causes, including terrorism), according to the link contained here. But in a very real sense, most of the Iraqi military causualties were of innocents, too (I'm excluding the security and Republican Guard forces), because most were conscripts caught at the wrong place and the wrong time. And if our invasion was in fact unjustified, their deaths are also on our hands.

-- Dave K.
Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!

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Justified or not Dave it would seem that we have even worse problems on our plate - North Korea and Iran just for starters
Mar 15, 2004 6:31AM PST

And when nuclear bombs start going off we will be speaking of millions of dead, not thousands.
I hope to God it doesn't happen, but things look worse everyday Sad

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Re: Justified or not Dave it would seem that we have even worse problems on our plate - North Korea and Iran just for starters
Mar 15, 2004 1:01PM PST

Hi, Steve.

Let's look at Iran and North Korea. When Bush took over, relations with both countries were improving. We were giving food aid to a starving NK, and they'd suspended their nuclear program as a result. In Iran, a relatively liberal President was enjoying increasing popular support, and while the hard-liners were still pressing for nuclear weapons, their position was weakening. Now enter Dubya. First of all, shortly after election he made saber-rattling statements directed at NK's (admittedly unstable) leader, for whom he's previously admitted a dislike. US-NK relations started deteriorating. Then in last year's State of the Union address he named Iran and North Korea (and Iraq) as members of the "axis of evil." North Korea somehow felt threatened (gee, I wonder why!) and immediately resumed their nuclear program; relations with them have been steadily deteriorating ever since. That same statement also undercut the liberal President's position in Iran, and the invasion of Iraq increased dislike of the US there to the point that the hard-liners were able to regain enough pupularity to oust most of the more liberal reformers from their Assembly (or whatever it's called) by fiat, not allowing them even to run in the recent elections. Bottom line, Bush badly mangled and worsened our position with both countries, and now we also have very little military option in case things get even worse, because our forces are bogged down in Iraq and both the fighting capabilities and morale of our reserves, most of whom recently rotated home from there (or soon will), have been substantially degraded. I know y'all think this is just partisan blamestorming, but it's just part of the factual basis for my contention that GWB is the worst American President since Calvin Coolidge, whose horrific policies set the stage for the great Depression.

-- Dave K, Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!

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As far as North Korea is concerned it is a figment of your imagination Dave
Mar 16, 2004 4:05AM PST
http://www.worldpress.org/Asia/1768.cfm

The 1994 Geneva Agreed Framework, predicated by an ?unofficial? visit to North Korea by former President Jimmy Carter, basically promised the same thing. Then, a ?freeze? was met with the formation of the Korean Peninsula Energy Development Organization, a US$5 billion nuclear reactor project, millions of tons of food aid, fertilizer, and other incentives. Eight years later, it was discovered that while the nuclear program at Yongbyon had been frozen, the pursuit of nuclear weapons continued through a uranium-enrichment program at an undisclosed location, allowing North Korea to receive billions of dollars? worth of incentives, and continue their program elsewhere. Some experts believe much of the aid that was offered was probably used to finance the covert nuclear program.

Now, 10 years later, North Korea has ?unfrozen? its reactor at Yongbyon and maintains that it has reprocessed, is reprocessing, or is technically capable of reprocessing?depending on the official statement of the day?the plutonium-laden fuel rods once kept there. Their latest offer essentially calls for them to refreeze what was supposed to have remained frozen in return for more concessions, amounting to a ?new? agreement, whereby the North will receive more for agreeing to do what they already agreed to, but didn?t do, before. This would all be laughable if it weren?t an election year in the United States and the prospects for success in this initiative didn?t involve a redress of a very dangerous problem in a sensitive area of the world.
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And how does calling NK an axis of evil help? I don't think it impressed our friends. nt
Mar 16, 2004 12:33PM PST

.

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Your question Bob does not answer why North Korea have continued to develop the nuclear bomb from way back
Mar 17, 2004 7:20AM PST

As it said in the link - $5 billion in food aid and they continued to process elsewhere.
Please keep to the question.
Dave said that Bush has destroyed any friendship with North Korea, or words to that effect, and as the link clearly shows, they really hate the U.S, and that was even when you had a democratic government.
It's a total falsehood to try and pretend that North Korea has any love at all for the U.S.

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Re:Your question Bob does not answer why North Korea have continued to develop the nuclear bomb from way back
Mar 17, 2004 8:43AM PST

I always appreciate a link to an informative site. And I didn't mean to butt-in. I'm just making the point, that as the biggest producer of WMDs the world has ever seen, the US should speak a bit softly. Diplomacy, you know? Consensus? UN type stuff. Air it out is what I say. If the so called EVIL ones have a legit gripe, let's hear it. If they're just nuts, let's hear that too.

If you're asking me why NK kept on working on the bomb I'd have to say that there's a certain immunity form preemptive, unilateral attack connected with having it. I don't know what flavor of communism NK practices. It seems to range widely, from true sharing to state slavery. Either way, NK has been under unbelievable sanctions for a long time now. I'm sure that when the crunch comes the little guy takes up the slack. Just as here. It's got to have been tough. 5 billion dollars worth of twinkies and mars bars bought us a little "Hi Howdy" and a small look-see. It's yet to be seen what "Axis-Of-EVIL" will bring other than openly refining the plutonium.

And of course, practically every nation we used to think of as friendly in the world has gone from huge sympathy after 9/11 to open hostility in very short order.

"Yee Haw"

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Thanks Bob - very interesting reply
Mar 17, 2004 10:31AM PST

One thing for sure, with all these dodgy bombs being developed all over the world, I guess we are on borrowed time Sad
It is such a sad situation

Howdy

Steve

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"borrowed time"
Mar 17, 2004 11:45PM PST

Well, we'd better stop kicking the ant-mounds all over the planet. A-bombs, gas and viruses ain't so tough to figure out that we'll ever be safe from them, ever again. The world may very well be headed for a purge. I for one, don't see a replacement for oil. And there isn't a whole lot of, as the Boy Scouts say: "Be Prepared" going on, or even contemplated, as far as I can see.

As individuals, we've always been on borrowed time. The sad thing is that the sure certainty of individual death has had so little positive effect for the planet on greed and the lust for power. Either we work together on a road map for the survival of future generations (including present sacrifices) or, as individuals, we fall back on the old ways of robing, cheating, mass-distraction and bullying in hopes of increasing the likelihood of our own individual kids seeing their way through, what looks to me to be, a very troubled time headed our way.

It's not up to the US alone to tell peoples and governments that "you just can't do that". When it does become necessary for us to make a move it needs to be sparkling clean and all diplomacy exhausted. Otherwise we appear to have gone down the second path.

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Errr, when did the US feel justified in killing thousands of innocent people?
Mar 15, 2004 4:02AM PST

The assertion is incomprehensible unless you identify what you're talking about. It could range from the American Indian to WW II, Korea, or Vietnam.

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I was thinking of the Iraqis -nt
Mar 15, 2004 4:28AM PST

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No, I was talking about before the terrorist took over.
Mar 15, 2004 4:58AM PST
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That first link is almost certainly Communist and the second link records weapons used but the details surrounding the deaths are completely unknown
Mar 15, 2004 6:13AM PST

How many deaths have been caused by unfortunate circumstances. The Iraqi army hid themselves among the population at one stage, according to news reports, so civilian casualties would have been unavoidable.
The only way to avoid these horrible deaths of the civilians is by not having a war in the first place.
If the war was carried out in open fields then there would have been zero deaths of civilians, but with this type of war . . . . . . . . . . .

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Hospitals aren't weapons! What are you taking about?
Mar 15, 2004 7:07AM PST

'

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No what are you talking about - taken from the link
Mar 15, 2004 8:41AM PST
The surveys also differed in scope. Interestingly, the Knight-Ridder survey, which covers the fewest hospitals, seems to find the highest number of possible civilians. This is because it includes as a separate category 1,255 dead who doctors thought were "probably civilians," although the hospitals had not yet made a final, official determination of their status.

The doctor thought they were "probably civilian".
They didn't sound too sure did they Rosalie.
I would say that there is just as much of a possibility that they were armed soldiers.