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This is just plain wrong.

by Dan McC / September 21, 2004 4:18 AM PDT
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If you paya da bills, you get to macka da rules.
by Kiddpeat / September 21, 2004 6:08 AM PDT

He had a choice Dan; 'Hanas had a chance to receive drug rehabilitation rather than go to jail', and he chose the Pentecostal program. THEN, he wanted to REWRITE the rules of a treatment program? I don't think so! It seems to me that the heart of a drug treatment program is that the patients do as they are told. They don't have the option of picking which rules they do or do not want to obey.

It sounds like the taxpayers are getting a free ride here. The Pentecostals supply the program, and, it seems, pay most if not all of the bills. I don't agree with what is described as the Pentacostal approach, and think that it is likely ineffective. It makes me wonder why the state would use it. On the other hand, we're only hearing one side of the story, so the reality may be quite different. In any event, the Pentacostals may set up the program in whatever way seems effective to them, as long is it is not illegal. The state and the criminals may choose to participate or not.

I guess the real solution is for either you or the ACLU is set up a competing program. Then the state will have another choice. I also guess the real aim of this article is to attack faith based programs. To he** with those who are being helped! Someone doesn't like it that they are learning about faith and morality.

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Just wrong.
by Dan McC / September 21, 2004 6:12 AM PDT

The alternatives cannot be give up your religion and change it to the one in this program the state is sending you to or go to jail. Doubtless he would have picked a different program if he knew he would be persecuted in this way.

People can teach and learn pretty much whatever they want about morals and faith. They just can't do it with state support.

Dan

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I have an alternative
by Steven Haninger / September 21, 2004 6:33 AM PDT
In reply to: Just wrong.

I fully agree w/KP. Of course we are only hearing what this writing wants to present so the whole story is anyones guess. What really needs to be considered by the young man is 'What is my objective?'. If it's only to avoid time behind bars, he is out of luck. If he wants to distance himself from what got him in this mess in the first place and does need help, he is free to accept his jail time and find a suitable rehab facility when he gets out. Thus he would not need to renounce his chuch affiliation. The alternatives he was given were not meant to tell him he had won a prize but tell him he must turn around and offer help in doing so.

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Drunk Drivers
by TONI H / September 21, 2004 6:43 AM PDT
In reply to: I have an alternative

nearly always get automatic suspended sentences if they agree to go to AA meetings (all court ordered recommendations need to have signatures from the people running the meetings and those must be submitted weekly to the court or PO as proof they are complying). AA was originally founded by religious groups and are still maintained with that type of 'feeling'..........and they've helped millions who have WANTED to be helped. The key to ANY self-help program is the desire to change, and it matters not what religion has offered that help. If the guy wanted the help, he could have asked the court to help him find an organization that is backed by his own religion instead.

TONI

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Re: I have an alternative
by Dan McC / September 21, 2004 6:46 AM PDT
In reply to: I have an alternative

You're not uncomfortable with the fact that the alternative to jail time requires that you must change your religion?

Dan

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Re: I have an alternative/Nope
by Steven Haninger / September 21, 2004 6:57 AM PDT

There is more to "changing" ones religion than just expressing such to humans. So, my response stands. What needs to happen is that this fellow needs to find a way to avoid being back in the court system. He needs to rehab himself and help is available. His drug use cost him money, I suppose, and getting past it isn't free either.

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(NT) (NT) you do the crime you do your punishment
by Mark5019 / September 21, 2004 9:25 AM PDT
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No, I'm not uncomfortable with that.
by Cindi Haynes / September 21, 2004 9:50 AM PDT

It wasn't necessary to even provide an alternative to jail time. As it happens, there was. Lucky he was offered a choice.

--Cindi
Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email the mods

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Like I said, how do you know the charges are true?
by Kiddpeat / September 21, 2004 6:46 AM PDT
In reply to: Just wrong.

The state didn't choose the program; he did. I got the impression that there was only one program. It was this or jail. Like I said, the Pentacostals get to set the rules for their program. He is free to stay or go. Either way, there are consequences. That's life.

You don't convert to a religion in one treatment program. If you don't agree, the worst that happens is you go through the motions.

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Re: If you paya da bills, you get to macka da rules.
by C1ay / September 21, 2004 12:14 PM PDT
He had a choice Dan; 'Hanas had a chance to receive drug rehabilitation rather than go to jail', and he chose the Pentecostal program.

He chose that program without being aware that he would have to proclaim himself saved. From the article, "Hanas? only alternative was to request a transfer to another program where he would not be coerced into practicing a religious faith alien to his own. However, the judge viewed his early withdrawal from the program as an indication that Hanas was not committed to overcoming his substance abuse. The judge then took away the only opportunity Hanas had to receive affordable residential drug rehabilitation and a possible dismissal of the charges."

This judge should have allowed him to transfer to another program without holding it against him. IMO, this judge did not act in the interest of justice.

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I won't argue with that. If there was another choice, it
by Kiddpeat / September 21, 2004 1:42 PM PDT

should have been open to him.

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Re: If you paya da bills, you get to macka da rules.
by Roger NC / September 22, 2004 4:23 AM PDT

If there was another program already proven acceptable to the state available, he should have been allowed a transfer.

However

... this judge did not act in the interest of justice.

If there wasn't another program available, or if "Hanas" just quit without going to the court for alternatives, then the jail sentence was justice, it just wasn't as merciful.

RogerNC

click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

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Re: If you paya da bills, you get to macka da rules.
by C1ay / September 22, 2004 8:26 AM PDT
If there wasn't another program available, or if "Hanas" just quit without going to the court for alternatives, then the jail sentence was justice, it just wasn't as merciful.


I quoted from the article before, "Hanas? only alternative was to request a transfer to another program where he would not be coerced into practicing a religious faith alien to his own. However, the judge viewed his early withdrawal from the program as an indication that Hanas was not committed to overcoming his substance abuse. The judge then took away the only opportunity Hanas had to receive affordable residential drug rehabilitation and a possible dismissal of the charges."

IOW, it seems to say to me that Hanas had the alternative to transfer to another program but the judge blocked it. Now maybe the reporter didn't word that very well, or the judge did in fact perform an injustice as this quote implies.

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A lot depends on what was not said ...
by Bill Osler / September 21, 2004 7:59 AM PDT

The situation presented in the news article is obviously not acceptable, but I do not know how closely their description resembles reality.

I think a lot of the debate about "faith based programs" generates more heat than light. Unfortunately, I am not sure I know any really reliable sources in this type of situation.

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So he chose the lesser punishment?
by James Denison / September 21, 2004 1:26 PM PDT
Devil
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Re: This is just plain wrong.
by Evie / September 21, 2004 10:38 PM PDT

The author's bias is obvious, so one has to view with some degree of skepticism whether the facts have all been presented.

Hanas? only alternative was to request a transfer to another program where he would not be coerced into practicing a religious faith alien to his own. However, the judge viewed his early withdrawal from the program as an indication that Hanas was not committed to overcoming his substance abuse. The judge then took away the only opportunity Hanas had to receive affordable residential drug rehabilitation and a possible dismissal of the charges.

This exerpt would indicate there were alternatives and Hanas merely withdrew from the rehab program he agreed to in lieu of prison time. This doesn't quite square with:

But Joe Hanas was never given a secular alternative. His choice was to either enroll in the Pentecostal program or go to jail.

Surely Hanas knew the orientation of the program from the onset. If he was not aware of the nature of a Pentacostal program, he found out soon enough that he could have requested the transfer. Given the degree of desparation this man is made out to possess, that doesn't square with his merely dropping out of the program.

No need to broadly smear all faith-based rehab, and/or government funding of such when it is the choice of the participant receiving federal funds. The only thing that might be an issue here is the choices he was offered on court order. If he chose the Pentacostal program over other alternatives, then he has no case, and the onus is on him to request the transfer.

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