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General discussion

The truth about the tax burden:

Apr 14, 2005 8:50AM PDT

"This all started with a report in The New York Times last week that the administration is finding heavy sledding in its efforts to go after terrorist financing. But who could oppose such a worthy endeavor? For starters, this administration. You may recall that Bill Clinton had commenced an international effort to track terrorist money, but the Bushies, upon arriving, denounced it as yet another soft-headed multilateralist initiative and promptly abandoned it. Then came 9-11, and suddenly it was in vogue again, though experts in the field, such as Sen. Paul Sarbanes, criticized the administration's initial efforts as lukewarm and half-hearted.

"The Times reports a classic "little-noted provision" (oh, the trouble caused by "little-noted provisions") in the intelligence reform bill passed by Congress in December. It gives the government new tools to go after specific suspects and, "more broadly, to analyze patterns in terrorist financing and other financial crimes. They said they were mindful of privacy concerns that such a system is likely to provoke and wanted to include safeguards to prevent misuse of what would amount to an enormous cache of financial records ... tactics ... (that) have already caused something of a backlash among banking compliance officers -- and even some federal officials, who say the effort has gone too far in penalizing the financial sector for lapses and has effectively criminalized what were once seen as technical violations."

"Like what "technical violations"? Perhaps we find a hint in a recent report by the Tax Justice Network, an international group of tax experts and economists. The Network estimates the rich have stashed an impressive $11.5 trillion in tax havens. John Christensen, coordinator of the Network and former adviser to the government of the tax haven island of Jersey, told The Observer of London: "This is one of the defining crises of our times. One of the most fundamental changes in our society in recent years is how money and the rich have become more mobile. This has resulted in the wealthy becoming less inclined to associate with normal society and feeling no obligation to pay taxes." "
http://www.creators.com/opinion_show.cfm?columnsName=miv

Can you say, "Suspicions confirmed"?

Rob Boyter

Discussion is locked

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Not sure
Apr 14, 2005 10:54AM PDT

if I understand your point. Rich people hide assets so they don't get taxed... thats the only thing I take out of your post.
I did like how she implied at the end that the rich who hide income are undeniably Republicans. No data, no logical backing of the statement... just simply stated that a group doing something immoral and illegal MUST be Republicans.
Hence my belief that Molly Ivans is a silly old woman who lacks companionship and takes her frustration out in her writing. Wow, my claim is as justified as hers.

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Rich people hide assets so they don't get taxed...
Apr 14, 2005 11:00AM PDT

As would I if I were rich. Why let the government steal of you can avoid it? More power to 'em.

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Rich people don't have to hide anything.
Apr 14, 2005 11:17PM PDT

Stupid people argue amongst themselves while both parties clean out the little guy.

Who benefits with a 'No Draft' situation? The rich who don't serve or the poor that can't find a better job?

Who benefits when the tax laws are full of loopholes? The guy that takes the standard deduction or the rich guy that has a tax consultant?

Who benefits more with fixed fees instead of percentage fees, the Millionaire driving anyone of his six cars or the poor guy buying a drivers license to drive a Yugo?

Who benefits when the have a minimum amount on license plates and personal property tax? The guy with the Lambo or the little guy driving a soap box paying the minimum?

Who benefits when the taxpayers build a sports stadium so the millionaire team owner can conduct business there?

Who benefits when taxes have a maximum tax rate? The guy that owns a one hundred million dollar yacht? You bet.

Who benefits when Social Security bases payments on income and 45 years of very hard labor at minimum wages gets you much less?

Who benefits when companies like McDonalds and millions of others are forced by law to share the retirement benefits with all employees that work a 40 hour work week, and they have 8.3 million part time employees?

Who benefits when the Millionaires on the exclusive barrier islands get taxpayers to pay millions of dollars to replenish the eroding sand in front of their triple gated communities?

Who has less stress in their old age, the old people that can't afford medication and eat cat food or the retired Senator or Congressman that opt out of our retirement system because they have a better one?

Who benefits when enlisted men can't get into the Officers Club?

Who life is more important and deserves saving from injury, the guy in a VW or a Benz?

Who benefits more, the street kid convicted of smoking Mary Jane or the Blakes, and OJ's and Williams keddedy Smiths of this world?

Who lives longer the guy with no deductable medical insurance or the guy who can't afford check ups?

Shall I go on or do you want to argue about it? We gave away the country long ago. I believe it was Poor Richard that said, Kill all the Lawyers and start over.

Ford or Chevy
Corvette or Porsche
Coffee or Tea
Beer or Wine
Clemson or Carolina
Michigan or Ohio
Gay or Straight
Catholic or Protestant
Wal-Mary or JC Penny's
Ginger or Mary Ann
Millionaire Bush or Millionaire Clinton

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Are you saying that rich people have it better..
Apr 14, 2005 11:23PM PDT

than the poor or middle class? Oh my God! Stop the presses!

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NO!, I didn't think everyone would
Apr 15, 2005 5:02AM PDT

get the meaning, I said Rich don't have to hide assets because stupid people fight amongst themselves while they have their hand in the cash drawer.

And I thought I could count on some of you to stop letting the crooks steal from us, oh well.

Let the presses run, you didn't understand anyway, but that was a real good attempt at sarcasm.

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But they DO hide their assets.
Apr 15, 2005 5:11AM PDT

They have to so the thieves (government) won't confiscate it.

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All the soak the rich policies do ...
Apr 15, 2005 12:10AM PDT

... is crunch the middle class -- especially the upper middle class. The income cutoff for the top 10% of wage earners is ~92K and top 5% is ~127K. For many areas that's a school teacher and a cop living comfortably but not exactly what anyone would consider "rich". Almost all of the credits to help the "poor" kick out well below this combined income. The truly rich can obviously take advantage and pay less in taxes -- but actually I don't berate them for doing so as I think the progressive taxation rate is immoral to begin with.

For the first year this year, we didn't itemize. Our taxes and mortgage interest left us $2K short of the standard deduction.

I'm all for the flat tax, and get rid of the mortgage deduction at this point. The median household income is somewhere around $45K, I find it hard to believe that between real estate taxes and mortgage payments there are too many in that income range that are able to itemize. It's not the tax-saving deduction for "average families" it used to be anyway.

Evie Happy

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I'm all for a larger sales tax that would
Apr 15, 2005 5:09AM PDT

replace the entire IRS, say 15%. Everyone pays, no filing, no forms, no deadlines or ES payments, no cheating and all the drug dealers, gold chain snatchers, sex sellers and middlemen help us pay the bills, including the fathers that don't support their kids, CEO's that steal millions, and everyone else.

You can bury money in your backyard, but when you dig it up and spend it, you pay tax. (or your heirs pay tax when they spend it)

It will NEVER happen because it's fair, and the Congressmen and Senators won't be able to sell favors to contributors, hence less power.

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When it was first proposed it was 7%. Now 15?
Apr 15, 2005 5:14AM PDT

How much higher? A nice idea, but not really fair because it's a tax and taxes are not fair.

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Nice Jerry - to answer
Apr 15, 2005 1:27AM PDT

No draft benefits freedom of choice and the poor a good chance to start their family on the right path above min wage.

Tax laws imo the number 1 reason to have a simplified tax code based on percentage (across the board)

Sports stadium ( I don?t care)

Maximum tax rate (back to across the board)

Social Security starts in you own wallet - min. wage one would ?hope? would just be a stepping stone.

Part time work is just Part time work

barrier islands ????

stress (political) one group is everyone equal with everyone richer the other everyone equal with everyone poorer you decide (but both don?t know you from Adam)

enlisted or officers club ???? the pool playing is much harder in the enlisted club, but the ladies are prettier in the officers club (from a man point of view)

life itself is important

Who benefits more?. The one who can afford the best show in front of the jury.

Who lives longer.. that up to you and your genetics?.

Chevy
Corvette
Coffee or Tea (both)
Beer (I r redneck)
Clemson over Carolina every time
Michigan or Ohio (buckeyes over the wolverines)
Gay or Straight (George over Marvin)
Catholic or Protestant (Notre dame over Pepperdine)
Wal-Mary or JC Penny's (Sears)
Ginger or Mary Ann (depends on the mood)
Millionaire Bush or Millionaire Clinton (???????)

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To re-answer
Apr 15, 2005 5:24AM PDT

Nice Jerry - to answer


No draft benefits freedom of choice and the poor a good chance to start their family on the right path above min wage.

(And the chance to die for your country while the rich benefit, give them THAT choice)

Tax laws imo the number 1 reason to have a simplified tax code based on percentage (across the board)

(agreed, no forms, no breaks, no deductions)

Sports stadium ( I don?t care)

(Over 16 billion of tax payers money in the last five. That's a lot to transfer to the rich.)

Maximum tax rate (back to across the board)

(agree)

Social Security starts in you own wallet - min. wage one would ?hope? would just be a stepping stone.

(slow people don't deserve healthcare)

Part time work is just Part time work

(Employees are sent home so they don't get 40 hours.)

barrier islands ????

(Not in Nebraska.)

enlisted or officers club ???? the pool playing is much harder in the enlisted club, but the ladies are prettier in the officers club (from a man point of view)

(They are fatter and uglier too.)

Who lives longer.. that up to you and your genetics?.

(many people die of very easily corrected things that require exams on a regular basis, if you don't have the money, you don't get them.)

Beer (I r redneck)

(I R 2)

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on require exams (Medical)
Apr 15, 2005 6:16AM PDT

The people need to be educated on these types of places to name a few. Maybe not perfect but a start.
http://www.homeless-healthcare.org/index.htm
http://www.bcm.edu/findings/vol2/is7/04aug_n1.htm
www.uniteforsight.org/freeclinics.php?state=texas

Ben Taub Hospital has garnered the respect of the world as an elite Level ...
Located in the heart of the Texas Medical Center
I have observed how Ben Taub works with a friend who goes to this hospital? for free medical I don?t believe it?s that bad (I never had to use Ben Taub, I have only used the VA and Herman). A few of the things that I noticed I did not like was you did not have the same doctor every time, the doctors rotate monthly, I think. You would be placed in a ward and you don?t want to miss an appointment. Another friend that I have works for community service department for Harris county. He picks up people (low income) and takes them to the hospitals or doctors for free.

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Okay, you win, the poor get the best
Apr 15, 2005 10:35AM PDT

plastic surgeons, heart specialists and everything including the most exams and preventive medicine.

How's that?

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Molly ...
Apr 14, 2005 11:11AM PDT

... must not be familiar with Teh-RAY-zah!'s tax rate Wink

I love her use of the word "expert" too.

Evie Happy

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You do realize that
Apr 15, 2005 5:19AM PDT

The willful avoidance of paying income tax is a crime. So ms. ?I couldn?t say a nice thing about GW even if he saved my life? Irvins is suggesting that there is 11 trillion dollars of criminal activity out there. ( and I'm sure they all Republicans)

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Avoidance of tax shifts the burden to others who pay tax
Apr 15, 2005 6:32AM PDT

If the rich are sequestering income and avoiding taxation on the rest of their wealth they're shifting the burden to those who can't escape, in other words the Middle Class. If its true that even half that 11 Trillion remains uncollected it certainly explains the tax burden on the middle class and the current deficit problem.

I've already noted that sales tax, VAT rests squarely and most heavily on the shoulders of the poor and the middle class. The rich don't care if everything costs ten percent more. The poor certainly do. And then of course there'll be issues of protecting the poor from that tax burden, either through the food stamps program or something else. I'd like to see a tax system that taxed those who could afford to pay, rather than those who can't afford to escape.

Rob

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The rich already pay plenty
Apr 15, 2005 8:34AM PDT

They pay most of the taxes in this country. The poor pay none or next to none, get tex credits for taxes they don't pay and enough welfare ot keep them poor. I am all for anyone getting a tax break wherever possible. Things like the inheritence tax are double and sometimns triple taxation. A plague on them.

If the middle class were taxed more perhaps they would get fed up and demand spending be cut back to rational levels and taxes be slashed. Liberals howled about GW's tax cuts but they were puny.

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The inheritance tax is not only confiscatory, but destroys
Apr 15, 2005 10:08AM PDT

small businesses and the jobs they provide. The businesses, in many cases, must be liquidated to pay the inheritance tax.

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Investing 101 Rob. The report did NOT say there is $11
Apr 15, 2005 10:05AM PDT

trillion in uncollected taxes. It said there is $11 trillion in tax havens. Now, we don't know how much is actually in these havens since $11 trillion is someone's unsubstantiated guess, but the $11 trillion, if that's what it is, is principle. It is how much is invested. It does not represent uncollected taxes. The tax would be on any income that is earned on that money. Thus, 'even half' of it would not be recoverable taxes. The tax on the middle class is there because that's where the money is. The deficit is there because that's what the economy needed when Bush took office. No amount of fancy Democrat or leftist footwork can alter those facts.

The article is heavy on speculation and very light on verifiable fact. It represents the hopes and dreams of the left.

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More recent Molly on taxes.
Apr 15, 2005 4:33PM PDT

Its April 15th: You're getting screwed

Tax changes that missed the headlines impact your bottom line

AUSTIN, Texas -- "Happy tax day, fellow citizens!
My favorite authority on taxes is David Cay Johnston of The New York Times, who won a Pulitzer for reporting on the terminally unsexy topic of taxes. His book "Perfectly Legal -- The Covert Campaign to Rig Our Tax System to Benefit the Super-Rich -- and Cheat Everyone Else" is the single best work on public policy of recent years, I think.

"Johnston reports: "Through explicit policies, as well as tax laws never reported in the news, Congress now literally takes money from those making $30,000 to $500,000 per year and funnels it in subtle ways to the super-rich -- the top one-one hundredth of one percent of Americans.

""People making $60,000 paid a larger share of their 2001 income in federal income, Social Security and Medicare taxes than a family making $25 million, the latest Internal Revenue Service data show. And in income taxes alone, people making $400,000 paid a larger share of their incomes than the 7,000 households who made $10 million or more."

"The rest of us are subsidizing not only the super-rich, but also corporations. Fifty years ago, corporations paid 60 percent of all federal taxes. But by 2003, that was down to 16 percent. So individual taxpayers have to make up the difference, as corporate profits soar and wages fall.

"As more and more rich people cheat on their taxes, the IRS is increasingly unable to go after them because it is so poorly funded.

"For all this, we can thank the Republican Party."

and there's more:

http://www.workingforchange.com/article.cfm?itemid=18898

Her viewpoint works for me.

Rob Boyter

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Why are you complaining Rob? You don't pay income taxes
Apr 15, 2005 4:55PM PDT

anyway, and the Dems are constantly agitating to get everyone to pay more.