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General discussion

The terrible human cost of Bush and Blair's military adventure: 10,000 civilian deaths...

Feb 7, 2004 7:22PM PST
"More than 10,000 civilians, many of them women and children, have been killed so far in the Iraqi conflict, The Independent on Sunday has learnt, making the continuing conflict the most deadly war for non-combatants waged by the West since the Vietnam war more than 30 years ago."

Entire article here.

Discussion is locked

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Re:.ye gods! i don't believe this....
Feb 7, 2004 8:08PM PST

A: i don't believe you actually search out this stuff!
and B: i find it even harder to understand that you regurgitate it here....

do you actually read it? digest it and say "yummy, a dose of truth is always such a treat"

lets see if you can spot the "catch22" of this little beaut!

#Iraq Body Count said last night that deaths are only recorded by them WHEN REPORTED BY AT LEAST TWO MEDIA OUTLETS. Its leading researcher Hamit Dardagan said that its careful, but necessarily incomplete, records are in contrast to "the official indifference" to counting either the Iraqi lives lost or those blighted by injuries#

has it occured to you that maybe, just maybe, some of the more feral anti-US so called "media outlets" are doing some of the groundwork here?

has it also occured to you to check for yourself?

would it be a surpise for you to know that possibly, just possibly, those figures include gunshot wounds caused by gangs fighting for control of the mjor cities?.....

keep on swallowing charley.....and please, enough of the regurgitation....

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other sources - varied info & perspectives - and some thoughts
Feb 8, 2004 12:09AM PST

It seems simple to find information on this subject that supports just about any direction you may wish it to go. A Google search of "civilian deaths" "iraq" leads to over 43,000 results all by itself.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/3378499.stm
http://www.iraqbodycount.net/bodycount.htm

an interesting article: http://www.worldlymind.org/birth.htm

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/12/12/sprj.irq.human.rights.ap/
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/johnleo/jl20030324.shtml

http://blog.seattletimes.nwsource.com/betweenthelines/archives/2003_06_13.html

The list goes on, and on, and on..........

There are also varied ways to headline an article, or to provide a subject title for a forum post. Some give the reader an accurate one-line summary of the direction of the article/post, some make an attempt to play on words, some are meant to shock or inflame the reader prior to even looking at the article/message body itself.

The media from ALL sources seem to know quite well how to feed the masses and fan the flames. Even many of the posters here in SE know how to do that.

I do certainly feel for the innocent victims of all these conflicts, including the ones who died on our own American soil, the ones in foreign countries, and the ones who are fighting.

Take care,
Marcia/Oregon/USA

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That, while not good isn't bad at all...
Feb 8, 2004 3:36AM PST

(even assuming the "two media sources" to be credible) if you attempt to calulate the number of Iraqi civilian lives SAVED based on interment sites already discovered and opened.

Actually, I guess it is good news. Your kudos for the US, Britain, and the others in the coalition are rather surprising in light of your normal stance.

Keep up the good work...

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It doesn't say how many deaths were caused by Saddam's bunch of killers either :(
Feb 8, 2004 5:59AM PST

nt

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Re:It doesn't say how many deaths were caused by Saddam's bunch of killers either :(
Feb 10, 2004 8:06AM PST

Charlie, like a few posters here likes to lay every problem at the doorstep of President Bush.
why are you not surprised?
david williams

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Re:Re:It doesn't say how many deaths were caused by Saddam's bunch of killers either :(
Feb 10, 2004 2:34PM PST

Hi David,
The question is whether to blame the media for putting the information up here on the web in the first place, which can then be read by people like Charlie who then places links to it.
The internet is exactly like journalism, each editor has his/her own bias, and deliberately words stories to fit in with the same.

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Re:The terrible human cost of Bush and Blair's military adventure: 10,000 civilian deaths...
Feb 8, 2004 7:16AM PST

Having various opinions and organizations published about such is probably good, since it improves the chance of a reasonably accurate picture eventually emerging.

Out of curiosity I went checking a bit on the Iraq Body Count to see what justification for the ranking of "...the most authoritative organisation monitoring the human cost of the war."

Searching on the name finds supports and detractors of course. Interesting was a search on "HAMIT DARDAGAN (Principal researcher and site manager)", that is a search on his name. Almost the only reference to him is to the IBC. There are a few to aritcle by him (normally him and his cofounder of IBC) for other publications. And one site they admit that most of the researhers for IBC are pacifists (can't find it right now, skimmed too many links). Nothing wrong with that, just something to realize.

The IBC site lists it members, or some of them anyway,and are upfront basically about antiwar stance.

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I'm sure they've been everywhere counting the bodies, and they
Feb 8, 2004 7:53AM PST

wouldn't, for the world, inflate their count just a tad. Rrriiiggghhhhhtttttttt!

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I find the figure very unbelievable as well Kiddpeat
Feb 10, 2004 7:24AM PST

I suggest that they publish the number of Iranians, and his own citizens that Saddam has butchered before the war. The number would far exceed 10,000.
In fact I shall see how many from an official site.

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Just heard about the car bomb outside the police station
Feb 10, 2004 9:40AM PST

It seems to me that, if I were an Iraqi, I would be furious, not with the Americans, but with the jerks that are bombing civilians and blowing up pipelines to make life miserable for everyone.

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Re:Just heard about the car bomb outside the police station
Feb 10, 2004 10:51AM PST

Hi Diana,
You are absolutely right.
We are doing our best to get Iraq back onto a decent way of life, and these lunatic terrorists are doing their level best to wreck everything.
The armed forces should be praised for what they are having to endure, not belittled with a bunch of lies.
The people who deserve to be belittled are those idiot terrorist.

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I am also quite mystified why certain areas are not cordoned off to all traffic
Feb 10, 2004 11:08AM PST

except for police cars, and army vehicles.
There is absolutely no need for cars to enter areas surrounding police stations, and army headquarters.
The delivery vans should be thoroughly checked over before they enter as well.

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BTW Charlie, how many bodies of people killed by Saddam
Feb 10, 2004 1:54PM PST

have been uncovered. Think those people would have preferred that we acted sooner?