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General discussion

The Shortcomings of Virtualization

Mar 3, 2007 8:18AM PST

Or, are there any? I am right now in the middle of a documentary film project and don't have much funding or equipment. At the top of my list is my first laptop (I've decided to go with a laptop since I'll be in grad school this fall). I worry that Vista will make my progress difficult and I always wanted to switch to mac and now feel is a good opportunity, but I have one main concern.

I would have to purchase a higher end macbook or lower end macbook pro due to my limited budget (has anyone had luck with refurbs?), and may use a NLE like Vegas or Liquid since they are better than some and cheaper than others (I can't afford FCP right now). These programs take up more resources than any other I use and thus, I worry that virtualization may eat up resources and thus make deter my productivity.

So, in short, my question is, how does virtualization affect resources? If I start the system with one OS and not two, would there be no difference than if I ran with a PC?

Long explanation, but it helps me think.

Discussion is locked

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The short answer.
Mar 3, 2007 10:22AM PST

Bootcamp is not virtual. It's the real thing.

How about that?

Bob

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Really? so then...
Mar 3, 2007 10:58AM PST

I can run XP on a Mac using bootcamp and there are no resource differences? Well, I can't see much reason not to get a mac then, if I could afford the itthat is.

I guess I need to catch up on what virtualization is. Thank you for your help.

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a PC NLE on a Mac?
Mar 3, 2007 11:04AM PST

Has anyone used a pc NLE on a mac using bootcamp or other software? I would like to hear your experiences, successful I hope?

Let me know.

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Unsure what you are looking for.
Mar 3, 2007 11:10AM PST

Bootcamp boots XP. Now it's just like any other Windows XP machine. Then vegas works just fine. What exactly are you looking for here?

Bob

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It's more a concern,
Mar 3, 2007 12:45PM PST

I was not thinking about Bootcamp, though I wish I had. If bootcamp runs as you say it does, then there shouldn't be any performance hindering with the NLE program.
What my concern was when I posted this was using Parallels (I think it is called) to run an NLE. It looks like the program runs on the surface, and I imagine that may take up some resources in addition to the NLE. I'll have to research Parallels some more to understand it but if Bootcamp works then I can't see what there is to worry about.

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cool down...
Mar 3, 2007 8:17PM PST

I really dont think that it would be a good idea to run an NLE with virtualisation. I hope that by NLe you mean non Linear Editor.

What you can do is get Final Cut Express which is MUCH cheaper than FCP and has almost all the features excep for a few small ones and compatibilty with COMPRESSION FORMATS.

I dont know if the offer is still going on but you can get Final Cut Express for just $99 when you buy a new Mac.

With bootcamp you can run Windows XP SP2 or Vista just like on a normal PC. No virtualisation or anything.

For video editing you dont need a good graphic card. Performance in video editing is improved by a faster processor and more RAM. I guess that a high end Macbook would be good enough for you but the small screen might create a problem.

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Ahh, Parallels.
Mar 3, 2007 9:41PM PST

Great stuff but I would go native for editing.

Their new product is amazing.

Bob

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Just to be clear
Mar 4, 2007 12:34AM PST

When you say native, do you mean use Bootcamp for editing?

And who's new product, do you mean Parallels or FC Express?

I didn't know FCE and FCP were so similar, I saw that deal that they were having. It's looks enticing.

Why I thought I would need a discrete graphics card (as offered by MB Pro) is that some NLEs use OpenGL and their performance usually relies on the graphics card, especially for previewing before rendering. I've only read about this with such programs as Avid and maybe Premiere, but I have not heard of whether FCP uses OpenGL, if it doesn't then I could could settle well with a Macbook, although I would like to wait for the 15" version due this year (or so I hear).

Does anyone know if FCP utilized the graphics card? Could I get by with integrated graphics for editing?

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That's something I never knew.
Mar 4, 2007 12:42AM PST

We found zero acceleration from a 4MB AGP card to a 500 buck whizbang card when we rendered our DVDs. I'd like to hear more about this.

Native works best since the CPU concentrates on the task at hand. And there lies why I don't see video cards to play much a role in the encoding task to MPEG2 DVD (or other encodings).

I'm only writing from experience here over a few decades so I could be wrong.

"And who's new product, do you mean Parallels or FC Express?"

See this link -> http://forums.cnet.com/5208-6126_102-0.html?forumID=10&threadID=236109&messageID=2416711

Bob

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Thank you,
Mar 4, 2007 12:52AM PST

I'm not speaking from experience, really I've just done a lot of reading (and still more to do) before I make my decision and found an article about NLE programs using OpenGL, which to me means they rely on a discrete graphics card, which is not included on the MacBook. I think the OpenGL usage comes from allowing real-time previewing of your editing, all before rendering. This way you can edit and see what is happening to your project before rendering, or at least that is how I understand it. I've only been playing around with my current NLE and I can't say much from experience.

That is why I'm turning to you guys who are so helpful and full of knowledge. I learn more from these thread discussions than I do from most tech sites.

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Link please.
Mar 4, 2007 12:58AM PST

I'd like to hear more about this. From my experience rendering is CPU bound. If someone was to harness the GPU in the video card that would be nice but sounds proprietary, prone to failures that could result in the company's support lines getting calls about drivers and more.

In my view I can list reasons why such an idea is just an idea and why it's not a good one.

Bob

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Here's my source
Mar 4, 2007 1:24AM PST
http://www.videoguys.com/DIY-GPU.html
Videoguys DIY - Picking the right graphics card for your NLE workstation

They don't mention FCP and how it performs with a GPU, which has now become my question.

If anyone has other sites and sources that I should look into, please let me know. The more I can understand before making purchases, the happier I will be, right?
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"Down the road I?d love to see the encoding engines tap into
Mar 4, 2007 1:47AM PST

"Down the road I?d love to see the encoding engines tap into GPU as well as CPU."

I don't see a benchmark to back up the assertion and then I read this sentence. I can see how this would confuse many.

Here's my stance. That's some pundit's article so without a benchmark let's put it aside and go for real world or ask people who do this stuff.

Given that no known encoding engine taps the GPU, why is it a big deal? I can see this for gamers, but not video editing.

Bob

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Referring to your latest post
Mar 4, 2007 2:04AM PST

So with your real world experience, you would say that the graphics card is hardly a matter to consider in purchasing a laptop for video editing?

Are there Mac'ers out there who use Final Cut Pro on their Macbooks? I realize the smaller screen size would not be beneficial, but I am taking this question to mind since I could easily afford the macbook and struggle to afford the pro. I am also concerned with system requirements, I have not found these yet for FCE or FCP.

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Following are system requirements for FCE. FCP are similar
Mar 4, 2007 3:00AM PST
www.apple.com

System Requirements
? Macintosh computer with 500MHz or faster PowerPC G4 or G5 (550MHz for PowerBook G4) or Intel Core Duo
? 512MB RAM
? 1024-by-768 or higher resolution display
? An AGP or PCI Express graphics card compatible with Quartz Extreme, or an Intel GMA integrated graphics processor in a MacBook or Mac mini.
? Mac OS X v10.4.6 or later
? QuickTime 7.0.4 or later
? 500MB disk space for applications; additional 16GB for Soundtrack and LiveType content (can be installed on separate disks)
? DVD drive for installation
? HDV features require 1GHz or faster processor and 1GB RAM (2GB recommended)

That should clear up all your system questions

P
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FCE, FCP runs on...
Mar 4, 2007 2:54AM PST

Any Apple computer you find on Apple.com. Go figure why it would take anything more than that.

Be sure to see if you can get a student price on either.

Bob

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absolutely
Mar 4, 2007 5:13AM PST

as a student, I get a nice discount off the Pro, and a fair one off the macbook,
thank you everyone.

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(NT) And I suspect off the software too.
Mar 4, 2007 5:30AM PST
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yes,
Mar 4, 2007 5:42AM PST

it states I can get the academic version for much cheaper (FCP), but what does academic mean as for as the program? are there any restrictions? or do I just need to prove I am a student to install it?

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Software is the same,
Mar 4, 2007 5:57AM PST

but you may have to prove you are a student to purchase it.
If you are purchasing the machine through the student discount program, you should have no problem with purchasing the software too

P

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So, then my only question for you video editors on mac is
Mar 4, 2007 6:13AM PST

what NLE program provider would you consider to be the best?

Apple, Avid, or Adobe (which is coming out on mac as well)?

I might save this one for another thread.

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My son was raving about the Apple product.
Mar 4, 2007 7:13AM PST

But now in college he misses it. They use AVID there. Not as user friendly.

Bob