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The plot thickens, as the campaign disintegrates...

I see a baaaaaaad case of "buyer's remorse" coming on. As in "well Howard Dean could be the man after all! Yeah, that's the ticket!"

Reporting by the Washington Post's Michael Dobbs points out that although the Kerry campaign insists that it has released Kerry's full military records, the Post was only able to get six pages of records under its Freedom of Information Act request out of the "at least a hundred pages" a Naval Personnel Office spokesman called the "full file."

What could that more than 100 pages contain? Questions have been raised about President Bush's drill attendance in the reserves, but Bush received his honorable discharge on schedule. Kerry, who should have been discharged from the Navy about the same time -- July 1, 1972 -- wasn't given the discharge he has on his campaign Web site until July 13, 1978. What delayed the discharge for six years? This raises serious questions about Kerry's performance while in the reserves that are far more potentially damaging than those raised against Bush.


Plot thickens after checking records

Oh what a tangled web we weave... And there's more, lots lots more... It's seared into my memory.

DE

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Judicial Watch has asked for an Investigation

In reply to: The plot thickens, as the campaign disintegrates...

Story - http://www.judicialwatch.org/3794.shtml
Aug 18, 2004 Contact: Press Office
202-646-5172

Judicial Watch Calls For Investigation Into Kerry?s Medals, Anti-War Actions

Formal Complaint Filed Over Senator?s Vietnam Awards, Post-Service Activities

(Washington, D.C.) ? Judicial Watch, the public interest group that investigates and prosecutes government corruption, today filed a request with the U.S. Navy and the Defense Department for an investigation into the awards granted to Sen. John Kerry during his service with the U.S. Navy in Vietnam. Judicial Watch also requested that military authorities investigate Kerry?s anti-war activities, including his meeting with North Vietnamese and Viet Cong delegations in Paris, while a member of the Naval Reserve.

FULL COMPLAINT -- http://www.judicialwatch.org/archive/2004/kerryawards.htm

Dishonorable Commissioned Service:

According to publicly available records, Senator Kerry was released from Active Duty and transferred to the Naval Reserve (inactive) on 3 January 1970. On 1 July 1972 he was transferred to the Standby Reserve (inactive). While a commissioned officer in the inactive Naval Reserve, Senator Kerry traveled to Paris, France and met with official delegations from the Democratic Republic of Vietnam (North Vietnam) and the Provisional Revolutionary Government (the Viet Cong). The Vietnamese Communists eagerly met Senator Kerry and benefited directly from the obvious propaganda victory (See Exhibit 2, page 126 ? 129).

These acts are clear violations of the legal prohibitions on individual citizens negotiating with foreign powers (18 U.S.C. ' 953) and the constitutional prohibition against giving support to our nation?s enemies in wartime (Article III, Section 3). Additionally, as a commissioned officer of the Naval Reserve, Senator Kerry was subject to the UCMJ, and likely violated Article 104 (?Aiding the Enemy?) through his actions with the North Vietnamese/Viet Cong delegation.



also from Judicial Watch
http://www.judicialwatch.org/3800.shtml

Aug 25, 2004 Contact: Press Office
202-646-5172

Secret FBI Documents Reveal Kerry Accepted Laundered Contributions

Senator Also May Have Set Up Meetings Between Chinese Firms, U.S. Officials

(WASHINGTON, D.C.) Judicial Watch, the public interest group that investigates and prosecutes government corruption, today released recently declassified documents showing that Democratic presidential nominee Sen. John Kerry accepted laundered contributions for his 1996 re-election campaign from the Communist Chinese government and that, in exchange, he may have arranged meetings between Chinese aerospace executives and U.S. government officials.


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Re: Judicial Watch has asked for an Investigation

In reply to: Judicial Watch has asked for an Investigation

There should also be an investigation into his participation in the VVAW meeting in which plans to assassinate US political leaders was discussed.

ALL of that should be out in the open before the people go to the polls.

DE

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Hmm ... 'campaign disintegrates' seems a bit strong to me...

In reply to: The plot thickens, as the campaign disintegrates...

Personally, I think both parties could do with a healthy case of "buyer's remorse" about now.

I do not have enough personal knowledge of military matters to come to any firm conclusions over the kind of "he said, she said" stuff that is going on between the Democrats and Bush or the Republicans and Kerry. My read is that most people are looking at the various factoids from each side and coming away favoring whomever they would have preferred to begin with. Both campaigns are going to be hurt by the overwhelmingly negative tone they are each using.

Like many, I'm troubled by Kerry's actions after his return from Vietnam. I'm also troubled by some of Mr. Bush's behaviors. I don't see that either man is a "hands down winner" on the character question, and I don't see that either campaign is clearly persuading a lot of voters right now.

The last polling data I saw showed no clear winner, but a majority of electoral votes likely to go to Kerry. That does not sound like a "disintegrating" campaign to me.

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It's my opinion

In reply to: Hmm ... 'campaign disintegrates' seems a bit strong to me...

> The last polling data I saw showed no clear winner, but a majority of electoral votes likely to go to Kerry. That does not sound like a "disintegrating" campaign to me.

At this point I'll just say that it's my opinion, based on the facts I am aware of, my observations, and my predictions of where this is heading.

I believe that pressure will build for John "I'm an internationalist" Kerry to release his records. You've heard right here how his folks dogged President Bush for ages to release his records, and called him AWOL and worse. Yet President Bush never made his service the centerpiece of his campaign. Kerry has made his service the very bedrock of his campaign in a very calculated way.

Considering Kerry's "Ghengis Khan" persona during his Senate testimony then vs his "reporting for duty" persona now, the scrutiny is fair game. He asked for it and he's going to get it.

It's inconceivable to me that anyone would make his service the very bedrock of his campaign yet refuse to release his records when the core of his political being is brought into question UNLESS there's something there that he really really doesn't want the world to see. Perhaps because it would indicate that he's "Unfit For Command." I believe the demands for release of his records will get louder and louder, yet we've already seen that he doesn't want those records made public. All of this is the basis of my opinion that his campaign is disintegrating.

It is fact that this man is the most far-left liberal of all 100 senators, a leftist's leftist. He also appears to be an opportunist and a fraud, to understate it and put it politely.

DE

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Re: Hmm ... 'campaign disintegrates' seems a bit strong to m

Hello Bill,

Kerry's honesty and integrity are the main issues despite what the media would have one believe.

Kerry has stated different things to different groups on many issues. This is regretably a political norm but Kerry carries it to extremes.

Kerry has stated publicly that he has released all his military records (2/3 of the way through the Russert interview on "Meet the Press" on 18 April, 2004) but the truth is he has not. There are huge gaps in them. He has released only a small portion and careful readings of that small portion shows major inconsistencies with his version of events but consistent with the charges of the SBVfT. (As a Medical Doctor who has seen Kerry on television can you come up with a reasonable explanation for a bleeding arm (Bronze Star citation) when the shrapnel wound that could potentially be bleeding was located in his ***? From what I have seen of Kerry, other than his head he is not that anatomically different from the rest of humanity.

He aided in anti-war demonstrations WHILE an Officer in the Navy which is in violation of the Standards of Conduct and UCMJ and treated with the Official North Vietnam delagates in Paris which is prohibited conduct for civilians or military.

He participated in a VVAW meeting where assination of political figures was discussed then when questioned about it recently denied it although the campaign has since admitted he was there.

His claims of illegally being sent into Cambodia (5 miles inside and with South Vietnamese shooting at him) have been shown to be made up and none of his crew support the claims of ever being in Cambodia. In his testimony to Congress in 1971 he claimed that he and his crew engaged the enemy with .50 cal machine guns in contravention of the Geneva Conventions because they were the only armament. First there is no prohibition against the use of a cal. .50 against personnel and second the PCF carried a couple of M-60 7.62 caliber machine guns 3 .50 cal (twin in the gun tub and one on the stern with a coaxially mounted trigger fired 81 mm mortar) and also carried individual weapons such as shotguns, M-14s, M-16s, pistols, and M-79 grenade launchers.

Kerry's honesty and integrity (or rather lack of any) is the real issue when he tries to run on his service record.

If he can't be honest about his past how can one intelligently expect him to be honest about his claims for the future?

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Re: Hmm ... 'campaign disintegrates' seems a bit strong to m

In reply to: Re: Hmm ... 'campaign disintegrates' seems a bit strong to m

~
~
~
"Kerry's honesty and integrity are the main issues despite what the media would have one believe."

No. Actually, the "main issue" is: who is telling the lies? There is an answer. Unfortunately we'll just have to wait and see. And unfortunately again, the election will probably be long over and done with by the time we find it all out. Kerry should have been ready for this and the fact that he apparently wasn't doesn't look very good. BUT at this point, you've got to admit, we really just don't know.

Last election the Dems were clumsy and trying too hard to be nice and without a good grip on the message or an effective voice. Still, counting the damn votes is always a good idea. Kerry sure ain't much better (plus his baggage). But you know what? Whatever else you say about him, he's not Bush! If W wins this time and later Kerry's record stands up... But of course by then it won't matter, having, in neocon style, won. The Dems'll be left with nothing to do but whine for the next four years. I don't know how much clearer a demonstration we need than the LAST four years that being labeled whiners trumps the truth every time with Joe A.D.D. Six-pack. There's nothing quite like winning. Is there.

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Who is telling the lies...

Bob, all you have to do to get an good idea is look on Kerry's own web site at the records he has posted and you will begin to get a pretty good idea that it is Kerry.

He PROMISED Russert on "Meet the Press" that he had released ALL his military records and they were available for review. The next day the Boston Globe took him up on his promise and was blown off. Kerry renegged on his promise.

Looking over the selected records he did post one cannot help but no9tice that he is claiming credit for the actions of Peck, the actual commander of the PCF 94 until after his serious wounds on the 29th of January, 1969.

You will recall his claims of being 5 miles INSIDE Cambodia on Christmas Eve 1968 listening to Johnson claim no American Troops were in Cambodia. Besides Johnson NOT being president at the time or date Kerry claimed was SEARED into his memory and Kerry and crew having to back off and say it was later in January that he was in Cambodia (But all of his crew says they were NEVER in Cambodia). Releasing his diary would help too because in he he has written AFTER the skimmer incident that he had not yet been fired on.

Then we have had him deny being at a VVAW meeting where assination of political figures was proposed and having to back up, regroup and admit that he was there after all.

We have him testifying under oath that atrocities were a daily event and the norm rather than isolated to Congress in 1971 and later admitting that he had never seen any of what he talked about and even admitting that stories of such at his and Fonda's "Winter Soldier" were storied of veterans who were never actually in Vietnam and many never even in the servioce at all.

We have him and his campaign taking credit for Bob Kerrey committee assigments and we have hims and his campaign claiming that the Swift Boat Veterans are lying because none were on his crew (ignoring the simple fact that the gunner of PCF 44 is one of them and has the distinction of serving the longest of any enlisted man on a Kerry crew.

It isn't difficult to see who is telling the lies when one looks at all the evidence (much of it on Kerry's own site or by biographers who are ardent supporters).

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Re: Who is telling the lies...

In reply to: Who is telling the lies...

Yes, yes. I have heard the ACCUSATIONS. We'll see, too late. Do you believe there are NO lies coming from the SBSfT (or whatever it is)???????????

His testimony is on open record and it's own problem. We've got to rip open the old scars and scabs and refight who was wrong and who right and to what degree and in what way... A great shame, there being so many more pertinent things to discuss. (Like what things we wish to buy and which distant future, out-of-oil generation will pay for them.) And then there's GW's non-Viet Nam credentials. Is Kerry a flawed individual? Probably. George Bush league flaws? Not possible! Not possible!
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Re: Who is telling the lies...ummmm

In reply to: Re: Who is telling the lies...

>>>>Is Kerry a flawed individual? Probably. George Bush league flaws? Not possible! Not possible!>>>>

Yeah, Kerry is flawed individual of major proportions considering that he's been a Senator for over 20 years and has NO record to be proud of.

Now, if he can be severely flawed as an Officer in the Navy, and if he can be severely flawed as a long-seated Senator, and since he's a rocket ready to implode, I would strongly suggest that having a known liar (consistently changes his story about his military record and his illegal talks with known enemies) and a traitor to his own state constituents in that he and his running mate have never represented the working class 'joe' during their time as representatives, this is a man who cannot be trusted to run this country no matter what kind of promises he makes during his campaign. He's already promised much that he's never delivered over the years, including 'leaving no man behind'.

No matter what you may feel about Bush as the President, he is a known entity and what you see is what you get, whereas Kerry is a multi-sided mask. That's scary.........

TONI

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(NT) (NT) Can't believe I'm saying 'evil' but lesser-GREATER! ABB

In reply to: Re: Who is telling the lies...ummmm

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Re: Who is telling the lies...

In reply to: Who is telling the lies...

Hi, Ed.

There's plenty of support (growing almost by the day) for Kerry's heroic war service, including earlier statements from some of the folks now trying to tear him down. Listen to their interviews, and it's clear they hate Kerry for attacking the War they still support, and if it takes a lie to tear him down, well that's what they'll do in the service of what they see as a greater truth. The name for that moral compass, btw, is "situational ethics."

-- Dave K, Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!

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You are not really listening to what is said...

In reply to: Re: Who is telling the lies...

or you would note that even Kerry supporters have different versions of the events. Their actual support is about what everyone has already provided. Kerry was there; he was a cowboy who didn't obey orders; he was a glory seeker; he can't back up the discrepancies in the records on his own site; his diary doesn't correspond with events as they happened.

How do you imagine his citation got signed by the sec def of the '80s? Why was it differently worded than the one signed by Zumwalt? Ther are BOTH on his own site Dave.

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Re: Who is telling the lies...

Hi, Bob.

"uniter, not a divider"
"compassionate conservative"
"govern in a bipartisan fashion"
"$15 billion to fight AIDS in Africa"

No need to wait years to tell a liar when you see one!

-- Dave K, Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!<<

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Personally I'm not impressed with either's integrity ...

In reply to: Re: Hmm ... 'campaign disintegrates' seems a bit strong to m

The question: If he can't be honest about his past how can one intelligently expect him to be honest about his claims for the future? could reasonably be asked regarding the other candidate, although the specifics would be different.

Maybe it's because there is such a steady stream of muck presented about both candidates. It is sometimes hard to focus on current issues. In any event, I think each campaign has made a good case that their opponent is less than honest. Much of the discussion in the press and also here in Speakeasy (including some of this thread) seems to be based on the incorrect premise that questions about the integrity of one's preferred candidate are best answered by challenging the integrity of the other candidate.

It seems to me that both candidates have behaved dishonorably. Each wants to challenge his opponent's integrity without fully accounting for his own lapses. I don't see a lot of integrity or personal accountability oozing out of either campaign. I also do not think that the stock reply "my candidate's lies are less important that your candidate's lies" adds much to the general atmosphere.

I think I've said before that I'd rather vote for a man with integrity whose political views I do not share than for a man without integrity whose political views I do share. Unfortunately, that does not leave me with any clear direction in this election nor did it help much in the last few presidential elections.

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Re: Personally I'm not impressed with either's integrity ...

In reply to: Personally I'm not impressed with either's integrity ...

Ill vote for the man who is doing the right thing, and intends to stay the course. Kerry is not the person anyone can confidently say he will do it and and stick to his guns -- He is too worried about what some other countries think about us. Further, his idealism about all countries coming together into one happy family is not a good thing. For example, he says he has the leadership to get other countries to step up to the plate in Iraq, allowing many if not all of our soldiers to go home sooner. Ask yourself if thats realistic. If the answer is 'no', then you know who to vote for. Happy

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Our military will be in Iraq for many years to come

In reply to: Re: Personally I'm not impressed with either's integrity ...

as a supporting group only because as long as they are visible, Iraq will continue to go forward. Even McCain said that last night during after the show interviews. He doesn't see any major pullout from Iraq for at least ten years or more....look at how many years we were/are still in S.Korea, Germany, etc. Just that fact that the US military will still be in-counrty (with rotations like in the other countries) will eventually be enough of a deterrent because of our simple "in the background" presence while Iraq rebuilds and probably long after.

TONI

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Re: Our military will be in Iraq for many years to come

In reply to: Our military will be in Iraq for many years to come

Just that fact that the US military will still be in-counrty (with rotations like in the other countries) will eventually be enough of a deterrent because of our simple "in the background" presence while Iraq rebuilds and probably long after.

Or, it could be a continuing lightning rod as our post Gulf War 1 presence was. Our presence now does not seem to be deterring anything. Chaos reigns and our casualties mount.

Dan
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Re: Our military will be in Iraq for many years to come

In reply to: Re: Our military will be in Iraq for many years to come

Then are you advocating just leave now?

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Nope.

In reply to: Re: Our military will be in Iraq for many years to come

We're stuck.

Dan

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(NT) (NT) Re: Nope....We're Committed...big difference

In reply to: Nope.

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(NT) (NT) We can be both.

In reply to: (NT) Re: Nope....We're Committed...big difference

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There isn't chaos there...

In reply to: Re: Our military will be in Iraq for many years to come

there are incidents from radicals. The PEOPLE aren't fighting us....that's a huge difference.

There were incidents from radicals who didn't believe the wars were over in S.Korea, Germany, etc. and occasionally would attack our military but after time as they were sought out and arrested or killed, that action stopped altogether and our military remained in those countries (we've been in S.Korea for 50 years already)without future attacks. The presence IS the deterrent when they realize we are NOT going anywhere until we know that country is safe for ALL citizens in it.

Pulling out now or quickly like Kerry suggests (and just like he suggested should be done in VietNam) would literally let the 'bad guys' take over again immediately. WE are the sole deterrent or there would be another Saddam in power before we got the last foot out the door. Then what....have Kerry again crying about how the last life lost was wasted effort because we pulled out at his orders when everyone else in the world with brains knows it's the WRONG thing to do anytime soon.

Make sure the country is stable with its own military and police 'taking care of business', and only then consider militarily leaving.

TONI

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Not chaos?

In reply to: There isn't chaos there...

I'm sure it didn't seem too placid to the 64 soldiers we lost there this month. Or to the 9 soldiers that other countries lost. And it probably didn't seem like easy duty to the 600+ that were wounded in August. If your chaos limit for civilian deaths in a month is over one hundred, that was reached, too.

We can't get out. We're stuck. But let's not kid ourselves that we're stuck there because we're committed to going to a lot of celebration picnics. We're stuck there because of the level of violence.

Dan

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And the fact that we will stay until the job is done

In reply to: Not chaos?

has had a good effect on other parts of the world, Dan. Do you think Khadafi would have given up his WMD/ARMS VOLUNTARILY if he wasn't very worried????????

TONI

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Well...

In reply to: And the fact that we will stay until the job is done

That doesn't really have anything to do with the situation in Iraq.

Dan

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Actually it has everything to do with it

In reply to: Well...

because the message from the US has gone out, and other countries are finally listening BECAUSE we are in Iraq. Even Saudi Arabia has taken token steps to pick up terrorists in their country....

TONI

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That is not what we were discussing

In reply to: Actually it has everything to do with it

We were discussing the lousy situation in Iraq.

Dan

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Actually what the thread started to discuss

In reply to: That is not what we were discussing

was Kerry's record....that's one of the nice things about SE...the threads weave in and out and get diverse.

TONI

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It can get chaotic here

In reply to: Actually what the thread started to discuss

But not nearly as chaotic as Iraq is.

Dan

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Re: Actually what the thread started to discuss

In reply to: Actually what the thread started to discuss

Hey, that's not fair. You didn't fall for the old "I'm hijacking the thread and I'm changing the subject and I'll ask the questions and you'll answer them and that's that" trick!

DE

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