The kind of people online - A Warcraft story

i also used to play runscape and even lead a clan (guild) for awhile, the people in that game are especially bad. i was being constantly harrased by higher lvls. people tryed to scam me every were i went. the way clans worked in that game were no better whenever i came across another clan leader he wanted a clan war in the pvp zone called the wilderness and if i refused cursed in the chat box and followed me around harrasing me. people in games are just plain mean most of the time and atacking a funeral is not a big step for alot of people in these games.

and i had no idea old nite is dead, he was my idle in runscape, zezima the strongest player in runscape is a jerk. i cant sleep so i logged on.

I figured this event took place anywhere from last week to a year ago. I first did a search on the forum postings to see if it had been discussed on the BOL lounge. Didn't find it so I believe it's the first time it's been brought up on here. Regardless...

The point of the post was merely to point out that online, people hide behind their anonymous little avatar and do stuff they would never do in real life. Yes it was on a PvP server and you CAN disrupt something like this. It doesn't mean they should have. It's like saying I CAN steal an item from a store if nobody is looking but it doesn't mean I should.

It was a very low thing to do and were I one of their guild members, I would /gquit the second I heard about it. For anybody remaining in that guild, I seriously hope that the major entertainment on that server now are daily raids that hunt down, kill and spawn camp any member still choosing to remain in it. Let the cost of such consequences be understood.

-Kevin

I agree with you that anyone who would do such a thing is below any consideration and should be continually held in contempt.... but.....

Why wouldn't you conclude that there is something flawed in the whole scheme of 'world of warcraft' itself?

I mean.... just consider the name of it (which is about all I know of it). Does that sound like a place where you would ever expect people to treat each other in a civil manner?

If I were a member of the 'guiuld' (or whatever) that got ambushed I would just give up the game completely.

Yes, it's easy to sit back and paint things with broad strokes and conclude the game by it's very name and nature is flawed, but no more so than the world we live in.

There are plenty of examples of civility, kindness and cooperation in the game, even on a PvP (player versus player) server. The game has divided the players into choosing a side - Horde or Alliance (not unlike Republicans or Democrats, Jews or Palestinians or whatever opposing factions exist in the real world to which you might compare it).

Just like in the real world, not all Republicans are out to get all Democrats and not all Jews are out to kill all Palestinians or vice versa. Many times in the game, I have cooperated with a player of the opposing faction or agreed not to interfere when we are in the same area. I've also been ganked more times than I could possibly count.

It's a form of entertainment like any other. The behavior of the characters in the game represent the behavior of the people sitting in a chair in front of a computer a thousand miles away. If you are a scum bag in real life, you'll be a scum bag in the game. Simple as that. What is unfortunate, is the discovery of just how large a number of people there are who would do just about anything if there weren't real world consequences to prevent it. I would actually argue that in a game like this, you see more of the true face of peoples' real life character because there are no such limitations.

-Kevin

What is an MMO worth if the community is trollish and barbaric? The point of Warcraft may be PVP, but player versus player is NOT - Player disrespecting player.... Sure, they had a right to go and kill everyone in the funeral... But was that the right thing to do? Those people were showing their respects for a friend, and people who think it's fun to make people feel bad just come and kill them? Face it. If it was a funeral in real life, and someone does even the slightest thing bad, people hate it. But what you don't get, is that a virtual funeral means the same thing as a real one. The same caring for a friend, the same people paying respects. Just the fact that it takes place in WoW doesn't mean crap. All it means, is that the people are scattered around the world and have no way of meeting in real life, so they have a funeral in WoW.... Some idiot comes and kills them? Is by any means a way to treat people who are trying to show respect to a person who died? Ok, so you say you agree that the people are low, but here's another point.

World of Warcraft is a NAME! What? You play Halo and expect to be an angel? What you don't get is this, world of warcraft is PLAYER VERSUS PLAYER .... NOT PLAYER DISRESPECTING PLAYER. THE FACT THAT THE NAME OF A GAME AFFECTS THE PEOPLE WHO PLAY THE GAME'S ATTITUDES? YOU EXPECT THAT? WE ARE ALL HUMAN, BUT EXPECTING PEOPLE TO BE DISRESPECTFUL WHEN THEY PLAY WORLD OF WARCRAFT, AND EXPECTING THEM TO BE NICE AT A REAL FUNERAL IS A BUNCH OF...... nevermind that, i have another point.

You say that if you were a member of the guild, you'd give up.... That's baloney (or balogna)! Sure the game doesnt mean a thing if you don't play it, but imagine if you worked hard at achieving your goals.. You wouldn't just quit. For many people, that simple game resembles something to look forward to in a day, or something to really keep them going in real life. It ives them hope. So people who play the game, play it for one common cause... It's fun! And by golly, certain people are trollish scum, who ruin all the fun of it...... *rant over*

What you don't realize is that I, myself, have conducted memorial services in an IRC chat room.

It was a chat room for Christians to come and talk with each other. There was a woman who was well liked to died from a blood disease. We coordinated with the family and held an on-line memorial service after the funeral with a son in attendance. I had the closest experience to leading a service as I had been a song leader and teacher and public speaker, so I was chosen to lead the memorial.

It was an emotional time.

I was just expressing that there is a difference in expecting to be able to hold a memorial service in an IRC chat room and expecting to hold a memorial service in an environment that (apparently) is dedicated to killing as many people as you can.

See the difference?

It's understandable that you might draw such a conclusion (that the game is little more than an environment dedicated to killing). But just take our word for it, when I say there is more to it than simple killing. Friendships are forged and broken in this game. Marriages result from the meeting of two people who might have never learned of the other's common interests in the real world. Fun times are had as well as awful experiences. If you enjoy Ebay or making money in real life, you might enjoy spending most of your time at the Auction Houses. It's a very rich environment.

All I can really say is that you would just have to try it for a while to understand. It's easy to draw a simple conclusion about something that is given the label of "just a game." It is just a game but people take their characters and experiences on there very seriously (many people do, anyhow).

-Kevin

After way too much consideration here is (are?) my four cents:

1. IT'S JUST A GAME.

2. The other clan, while not nice, *paid* to play a game where one of the objects is to kill people.

3. I don't think a violent video game is the proper forum for a solemn meeting.

4. Video games are acting as substiutes for real life, and that is not healthy!

As a direct result of this obsession and/or dependence, people are threatening bodily harm on REAL people, starving to death, getting DVT's, and comitting suicide!? When is enough, enough? I mean, will the time eventually come for the government to step in???

-k.t.m.s

1. It's just a game..... Sure, but it means as much as winning the olympics, or the world series, or the superbowl, or the world cup, or the stanley cup, or the NBA finals! Those are just games too, and in those cases they put their whole lives into it.... The only difference, is the pay check, and the physical involvement.

2. Part of playing the game is the bonds. You don't play to kill, killing is a competetive part of the game. You're acting like this game is the Chainsaw Massacre or something! It may be in your eyes, but my question remains, have you played a game like this? Have you played it long enough to make friends?

3. Is real life any less violent? Guns, Terrorists, bombs, whatever....

4. No they aren't, who says people who play MMO's don't have a life? Veronica has a job, does other things, but plays the game because it's FUN!!!! Not as a substitute for life!

Your response to my post stands alone as proof of the problem we are facing. :-/

Durr... you're kidding Robstak? IS it really a game? Funny how a twelve year old dude totally puts your arguments to shame. He gets it. You don't.

We realize it is a game. That's never been the point. Jesus.

-Kevin

I think the point being overlooked by the players is this:

If you expect to be able to hold a memorial service inside a game dedicated to devaluing human life then you are letting the game warp your human values. You have become obsessed with the game.

I know about on-line obsession and its power. As I mentioned I used to chat quite a lot in IRC. It got to be an obsession (can't use the word 'addiction' I don't think).

The you are missing is that on-line is not real-life despite the existence of marriages that have resulted or whatnot. Yes, the on-line experience can lead to real-life ones (like a marriage) but you have to step away from the front of the computer to have a real-life experience.

WOW! Ok, so I was *trying* to be nice AND I didn't defend my statements before because I found out that other person was TWELVE (how mature is it to argue with a 7th grader?). But if you are going to call me out, then I suppose I will...

1. "It's just a game..... Sure, but it means as much as winning the Olympics" --- This is a ludicrous statement. If you believe that, you have some serious priority issues. I tried to make the point that BELIEFS LIKE THIS ARE NOT HEALTHY. Holding such trivial matters in such high regard is borderline delusional. What is considered 'normal' is more or less based on a 'majority rules' or 'what an average person would think' kind of thing. I bet you a whole lot of money, if you polled America that they would agree with me by leaps and bounds. I think you all are more similar to a religious cult than the Miami Heat. Everyone in the cult believes that what they think is right and ok, but in the end, you drink the koolaid and everyone thinks that you are crazy. Yes, everyone is entitled to their opinion, but when it starts to effect your life, then it becomes a problem.

2. "Part of playing the game is the bonds." --- First off, you have no idea who some of these people are. Have you met them all? Who is to say they aren't a repeat sex offender? Value must be placed on human contact in determining strength and trust in a relationship. Internet friends should be considered no more than acquaintances, to trust them undyingly is foolish. Additionally, many studies have been published with regards to the effect of internet and computers on social and cognitive development. Not only has time spent on a computer been proven to inhibit cognitive development, but chatting/social networking on the internet for a significant ammount of time has been correlated with social DECLINE; FURTHERMORE, the ammount of time spent online in front of a computer has been correlated with depression and decreased self-esteem in girls. Do you see what I mean about not healthy? Don't believe me, Google-Scholar it. And about my "chainsaw massacre" portrail, if violence is not a significant part of WARcraft, you can correct me on that one too. I'm not denying the social aspect, but it's still a violent game. And getting married online and feeling it is PATHETIC. You tell me that there aren't at least a few couples out there that are actually emotionally comitted to a video game marriage. It's sick! eHarmony is ok because it is a way to meet people online, AND THEN FOR REAL; and then maybe they get married, fantastic, but the internet portion is just for the initiation of the friendship, ONLY. Meeting people online is socially acceptable, loving them is not.

3. "Is real life any less violent? Guns, Terrorists, bombs, whatever...." --- MacHugger, you defended him, maybe you can explain to me how this statement makes any sense at all, but then again, all strong arguements do end with "whatever..."

4. "who says people who play MMO's don't have a life?" --- Not me. all I said was that it seems that people are using video games as a substitue to real life, and that that is not healthy. I'm sure that many ppl that play MMO's do have a life, I mean I'm assuming that shantananubala is still going to 7th grade between playing WoW games. My poit was that it's an unhealthy outlet to put so much stock into a video game that was not designed to be a substitue for real life. Go ahead and email Blizzard and ask them about that. And don't bring V into this, that's just rude.

So that's my response to you two. I can't even begin to express how frustrating this is for me, mostly because I am genuinely worried that there are kids out there that really think these kind of things. It's just not healthy, it's pathologic.

I'm sure there is more I could say, but this post is already wayyyy too long, and I'm done with this BS. I apologize to everyone else on this forum for this epic rant and its lack of candor.

GET A LIFE! ARGH!!
-ktms

PS: And for what it's worth, my roomates and I all laughed our arses off after watching the video because it's amusing to us to see ppl take video games so seriously; 'yall take the geek cake! (It's ok, I'm a geek too.)

PPS: Finally, if you are so mad that stuff like this happens, either call the game maker and complain or don't play the game at all. Noone is forcing you to play.

PPPS: Do I know what I'm talking about? I've probably logged as many hours between console and pc gaming online as most of you all have, and I personally know people who hold similar beliefs to you guys, so ya I think I do.

OK first off, people who play MMO's aren't obsessed with it! I have a life! I'm a straight-A-student, I learn martial arts, and play baseball. If that isn't a life, I'd love to know what is. To tell you the fact that if your friend died in real life, you'd go to a funeral in real life, and do what you could for that friend, is stating the obvious. But if you meet a person online it's different? So if the game has PVP online it's different? Those people playing the MMO weren't obsessed. They cared for a friend. If you think the only way to be a friend is in real life, then you have friendship completely misunderstood. So don't give me crap about it being a game dedicated to killing. It has a currency system, and attributes of real life. It has the jist of the stock martket to the fact that items go up in value, items go down in value depending on the time of the year. It has the auction house, it has quests, it has a hell of a lot more than just killing another player. so this game is a life experience in itself, and that's why you can make friends, get married, hold a funeral, or whatever. Because you have a real life in which you go to work, go to school, go outside, have dinner with the family, and then play a MMO with friends. Is that obsession?

I'M SORRY, BUT CARING FOR YOUR FRIENDS IS NOT AN OBSESSION WITH THE GAME! HOLDING A PARTY OR A FUNERAL IN THE GAME IS A WAY OF SHOWING THAT YOU CARE! FIRST PLAY AN MMO FOR A WHILE, AND MAKE SOME FRIENDS THROUGH IT. THEN YOU'LL GET THE POINT!

P.S. - Sorry Kevin, I couldn't reply to the post below because of some limit to how long the chain can get, but people need to get the point! Can you believe how people say things when I'd bet they never played a MMO and made a friend through it.

"GET A LIFE! ARGH!!"
your closer.... Which completely tells us a single thing..... It's pointless trying to say something to you, so I might as well clear some stuff up. If you're going to reply with another piece of psychology expertiece, first read all of mine and Kevin's other posts, and if you don't get the point, I'll be happpy to post again and go for another round.... The reason I brought Veronica was not to be rude to her, but was to show that a person can play a MMO with great interest and still be a really great person in real life. Then I ask this question and this question once. You said that youd didn't think people who take intrest in MMO's don't have a life. But here you are telling me and Kevin to get a life.... My question is, did you atleast read our posts? What kevin said, was that I put your argument to shame... Now, I'll put your argument to shame again, because you seem to love restating EXACTLY what you said before, and wanting another post from us.... In fact it's pointless... Why don't you read what I've posted on this thread before, and maybe you might come out with something extra that you didn't know about me, without saying that i need to get a life, that I am unhealthy, that I'm dellusional (lol), or whatever people like you call other people.... Because maybe I have a life, maybe I happen to play sports. Maybe I happen to get straight A's... Maybe I happen to love gaming.... You don't get it. I doubt you'll ever get it. But one thing's for sure.... I just put your arguement to shame... LOL!

That post's title didn't come out right.....

Actually, your way-over-the-top reaction to what people choose to do with their own lives is what I find pathetic (and hilarious). I think you made me laugh out loud at least 7 times in your post. Oh, and for the record... you still completely missed the point. But nice rants on all the other crap.

Hearing the phrase "get a life" from you after reading that mess was the capper. Thanks for that

-Kevin S.

I did read all the posts... more than once.

And the 'get a life' comment was totally inappropriate; I am sorry for that, I was just very frustrated...

...not by what you choose to do with your lives, but because it's impossible to argue with illogical ppl. You twisted some of what I said and ignored the rest of it, and your points either had nothing to back them up or were totally outlandish. And that's all there is to it. The post stands for itself.

But this is why I felt like this was going nowhere and it'd be better to give it up and save everyone from our b-s beef. Besides, I have a lot of respect for you, kevin, on this forum, you contribute a lot of good stuff, and also I refuse to fight with a middleschooler. sorry guys.

Done for real this time.
-karl

Fair enough.

For the record, apart from the jabs at one another, nothing that either of us said was "outlandish." We happen to have two very different opinions on the topic. Also for the record, I do have a life and a rather well-rounded, nicely fulfilled one at that (so far, knock wood, etc.)

And also, in defense of Shantanubala, I wouldn't dismiss his opinions and contribution to this forum as the rantings of a "middleschooler." It was unfair for me to set him up as an argumentative tool by saying you were bested by a 12 year old. I regretted it as soon as I said it. I also don't think you meant to make light of the relevance of his posts but it came off a little that way. While we were rolling around in the mud, Shan actually stood above it rather respectably.

I've had a few forum tussles with Jasmes and Keystroke and others and it's all good. We're all still here. Opinions are just that - opinions.

-Kevin

Even me and Kevin have had a few arguments... But in the end it all comes down to the fact that we can all just get along and contribute to the forum's community... And I think it'd be best if we just let this topic die down... Everyone disagrees on something or another... So it really wasn't personal or anything. As all that goes.... Let's just forget about it...

I agree Kevin..... I have had a person in my clan (guild) on runescape. He didn't die, but he isn't doing so well He didn't tell us exactly what was wrong,he just said it was a tumor of some sort, and he was really gloomy. You can Just tell by the way he said things. We held him a get well soon party, and he was so happy. We gave him gifts (they may be pixels but they means something in our hearts) Sure the MMO has killing involved, but it isn't dedicated to killing. If you ever have lost a close person or a loved one, you'd know how it feels. It is EXACTLY THE SAME if a person dies, and they hold a funeral in game. IT IS STILL A FUNERAL! IT IS STILL SHOWING RESPECT TO THE PERSON! Just because someone can kill you in the game at any time, doesn't mean the funeral isn't representing the bond of friendship between people. At a real funeral, anyone can do anything at any time. The only difference between the real world and a MMO is that in the MMO, there are little consequences!

I REPEAT! THE ONLY DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A MMO AND THE REAL WORLD IS THAT THERE ARE LITTLE CONSEQUENCES!

you may disagree with me, but if you haven't played a MMO for a while, and made friends. Do just what I said, and if something happened to those friends, you'd do something. Trust me.

Yes I'm 12 years old. Yes I take my video games too seriously, but a friend is a friend, and I don't give a crap if the way I met them was through a bunch of pixels. If something happens to them, I'll do what I can for them. And that is all those people were doing. They were doing what they could for a friend that was no more. Tell me I'm crazy, tell me I play video games too much, but then you'd also have to say that I'm doing my best to be a good person.

I know I'm a day late on this (I was busy ganking Funerals and Weddings in WoW).

Kevin;

Here are some responses to your real life comparisons:

I can steal in a game, infact there are plenty of games which encourage that. Is this something that I shouldn't be doing because it's wrong in real life? There are plenty of RPG games which allow stealing from other players.

I am holding a funeral in the middle of a contested warzone in real life. It's WWII, I'm in the middle of the trenches, and I decide I want to have an impromptu funeral during a fight. Hey yoo hoo other side, please cease fire while we mourn the loss of one of our guys. Once we're done here and setup again, you can continue to kill us! We just want this 5 minute repreive!

You have to look at this in context to the world surrounding it. The world surrounding it being it real, or virtual. WoW is a virtual world. Yes there are real life people behind the characters, however, it's an escape. You do things in these worlds you would never do in real life. Kill other players, steal, kill monsters, wear insane armour etc etc. Holding things like Funerals and Weddings in a War zone in real life is not the wisest thing to do, and in the virtual world whose purpose is killing for fame, glory, loot and "honour" points is no different. Infact, if you take that worlds surroundings in context, I would put the funeral being held akin to what I stated above, which is holding it in the trenches in the middle of WWII.

I think we all agree that the guys who ganked the funeral were *******, there's no arguing that. But I think the point is very clear that if people are going to be just as braisen about where they are holding the funeral they should be expecting some impact.

If they want, leave a token of thought like people do at car accident scenes. Though in WoW that is quite impossible, except maybe leaving the corpse of a mob in the area in their memory, which would then just turn out to be kind of a perverse way of remembering someone I guess, but I digress.

Basically, like real life, you have other outlets or areas to hold services that are far more appropriate, and far less chance of having some asshattery things happen.

I will admit I laughed during the video, and found it quite amusing. Why? Well I'll freely admit I'm twisted in the head and like the black humour of it. Plus I always find it amusing how stupid / wankerish people can be. Does that make me a bad person? Honestly, I don't really care. I'm personally happy with who I am, and those around me are as well.

Just as a side note - I do play WoW (Have been MMOing since 99 with EQ) so I am well versed on the game surroundings and what it's about.

It should have been held in a city. I guess they just never imagined people, even on a PvP server, would stoop quite so low.

-Kevin

The reason they held the memorial in a PVP allowed zone was because it was apparently her favorite place to wander in (according to PCG). I still think this whole incident has been blown out of the water as it was simply an effort to promote PvP.

i mean, wouldn't the person from the opposing clan be recognized in line with the others? that is how they got the 'requiem' footage right?